Al Qaeda Number Two Slams French Veil Ban

reply to post by Sri Oracle


Thanks, but no thanks. I don't have to walk naked in Manhatten or anywhere else to find God.

Quite honestly, whether God is happy or not with me, is not your judgment to make.

Careful, now.

________________________________

I see you went back and edited you post since you read mine. Not sure why, other than to try and bait me, which I really wish you wouldn't do.
You are attributing motives to me of which you have no knowledge or justification to do, other than just being rude.

I am not addressing politics. I am addessing a style of dress which I would personally loathe. You wear one? That's great, truly. What you do, is what you do. Knock yourself out.

But please don't put words into my mouth, or continue to bait me, or presume to think you have any notion who I am or what I believe.

Won't fly, girlfriend.




[edit on 7/28/2010 by ladyinwaiting]

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by Sri Oracle

 

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't have to walk naked in Manhatten or anywhere else to find God.

Quite honestly, whether God is happy or not with me, is not your judgment to make.

Careful, now.

Its not about whether god is happy with you. It is about whether God is happy with any woman walking naked through Manhattan at the moment. It is about the fact that an otherwise benevolent God will quickly show his wrath in the face of nudity in a highly civilized and ritualized public place... it is just a basic fact of human existence at the moment.

Its about the fact than when a woman comes FROM a more highly civilized and ritualized society she should have the right to wear her "Manhattan" clothes when she visits your metaphorically tiny-bikini beach.

She has right to the privacy that she has grown accustom to; that which her formal dress provides for her.

----------------------------

Per say...

You land on an island in the pacific with a population of 750 indigenous people; you're going to be there a while. The men wear loin clothes and the women are generally unclothed except for body jewlery. They're all tan and generally look alike. You're attractive, but different. You were brought up by a Bible Belt family in Arkansas; fate has you amid a very different culture, a female hoping to find her way back to a Christian boy.

So should you go to their tribal jail for wearing your Kansas bluejeans? Should you feel forced to unclothe yourself amongst these "unchristian/savage" men?




-------------
and I edited while you were responding; the internet is a dynamic thing.





[edit on 28-7-2010 by Sri Oracle]

reply to post by Sri Oracle

It is about the fact that an otherwise benevolent God will quickly show his wrath in the face of nudity in a highly civilized and ritualized public place... it is just a basic fact of human existence at the moment.

It's not a basic fact in my existence. I think a person would be shown plenty of wrath in this scenario, but it would be by the police.

We have fundamental differences in our core beliefs. This is not the place or time to discuss them.

~ My best to you.
liw

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
We have fundamental differences in our core beliefs. This is not the place or time to discuss them.

~ My best to you.
liw

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We deny it. it's not welcome here. Within these boundaries, it has no strength.

Here, ignorance is denied.

Where should we meet up to discuss our differences on the subject of religious dress?

Fox news forums?

To me, "Al Qaeda Number Two Slams French Veil Ban" seemed like an opportune and on-subject opportunity.

Sri Oracle

[edit on 28-7-2010 by Sri Oracle]

reply to post by Sri Oracle


I typically avoid threads such as this, because there is always someone on them such as yourself, who will either imagine or fabricate something hateful and begin the process of:
pick
pick
pick
pick
I've seen you "pickers" go for days. Pages.

I don't generally discuss my religious beliefs on ATS, or Fox news or anywhere else, so you, picker, are barking up the wrong tree.

You have turned my post into something it was not intended to be, as "pickers" do, and are now attempting to manipulate me into being drawn into a conversation I don't wish to have with you, as it disinterests me. Sorry, but that's the truth. I'm not particularly invested in the subject matter, and have no drive or motivation to continue a discourse with you in this "picking" vein. That is my position.

If you continue to bait me, and put words into my mouth, you will have exited the "picking" venue, and entered the "trolling" one.

Thanks, and enjoy your life, as I am doing.

Originally posted by Big Raging Loner
reply to post by StarTraveller

 

I don't think I have taken it personally to be honest, and I'm not trying to cause any offence. I thought the idea of starting a thread was to debate the issue, not bring people on to massage your ego and give you stars. So far you've had, aside from me, exactly that.
Do you not understand that ignorant attitudes like yours, using generalisations about religious groups only serves to further exacerbate friction between different members of the community?
If your last statement is to be believed then you won't mind clearing up some outstanding questions I have;
If we go to their country we respect their religion and are punished if we don’t:

And yet they can basically take over other countries and declare war if we don’t agree. This is crazy crazy at it best!!
You are referring to Muslims in general with these comments yes?
The Nationality is an issue, you suggest they are coming over to 'our' country and taking over, we don't go to 'their' country and disrespect them. How is nationality not involved in this discussion?
Try an weasel out of it all you want, but your comments are preaching sectarianism.

You are wrong there too I am afraid but I guess we must agree to disagree as I for one do not intend to explain myself to a fellow ATS member on matters that could affect the many
I think you should explain your stance, as for me there seems to be somewhat of a gray area.
Again I will reiterate my challenge put to you earlier, show some of your good friends who are Muslim this thread and ask for their take on it.
Good day to you

Okay Mate lets go for it, clearly you are looking for entertainment this evening, hope I can deliver.
The reason I made this thread was to highlight something I felt other’s may have not seen or maybe hadn’t paid any attention to.
My intention of making this thread was that and that alone, not for gaining stars or Flags as I do not value these quite as much as others!!
So let’s debate and not assume, clearly something you take pride in.

Do you not understand that ignorant attitudes like yours, using generalisations about religious groups only serves to further exacerbate friction between different members of the community?

It seems to only cause friction between you and I at the moment. No generalisations were made as this would not be right. I commented on the facts presented in the original article with a generalisation to the concept being reported, not religions in general. Notice I used the word ‘Concept’ as this is all it can be at this stage as it’s only France that has taken this stance – currently.

You are referring to Muslims in general with these comments yes?

Basically NO but I guess you either won’t believe me or will blame that on my ignorance too

The Nationality is an issue, you suggest they are coming over to 'our' country and taking over; we don't go to 'their' country and disrespect them. How is nationality not involved in this discussion?

This is about religion and not nationality. It’s irrelevant where people are from, if they go to a foreign country such as the UK and practice religions that are not native to that country then nationality is not important, the religious points are. This also goes as far as nationals that have lived in a country all their lives but again practice religions that are not native to that country, regardless of where they are in the world. The Vale is in fact nothing to do with religious requirement, more preference of the men folk.
Let's be clear: the niqab and burqa are extreme interpretations of the Islamic requirement for modest dress; few Islamic scholars advocate their use, and many have urged women not to use them. They are as alien to many Muslim cultures as they are to the west. And yes, there are instances of patriarchy where some women might be encouraged or even forced to wear a full veil by their husbands or fathers. But generalisations don't fit. Increasingly, young women are choosing to wear the full veil, seeing it as a powerful statement of identity.
Here’s a bit of light reading for you. I like to research my subject matter before going off on one.
www.islam-watch.org...:unveiling-the-islamic-veil-1&catid=87:lennard&Itemid=58
Also having just spoken to a Muslim friend (as you suggested) he is in agreement with this and also stated that in some cultures there are those that go too far in their beliefs and these people make like difficult for those in society that are happy to fit in with the local while practicing their religion of choice.

Before I go, can I just ask that ATS members not take this to a personal level as we are all in this TOGETHER!!

I am done here...

Great debate but please lets not get personal. Big Raging Loner and myself are all good and fine with each other. I guess this is one of those subjects that need to be treat carefully as I know its easy to get to passionate about a subject.

Best Wishes to all anyways

[edit on 28-7-2010 by StarTraveller]

Hmmm, I was initally for the ban, but now that Al Qaeda says it's bad....

reply to post by StarTraveller

Okay Mate lets go for it, clearly you are looking for entertainment this evening, hope I can deliver.

Always

It's too bad you replied before I could delete the goading comments. They have now been removed, for other contributors hungry = Raging Loner.

This is about religion and not nationality. It’s irrelevant where people are from, if they go to a foreign country such as the UK and practice religions that are not native to that country then nationality is not important, the religious points are.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that these people have not travelled to this country this is their country too, and they are citizens from birth, contribute taxes, have British French passports etc.

In France and the UK we are supposed to be shining examples of Democracy and in this case, democracy has been abused to target a minority. At face value the French government claim that this ban is in the interest of national security, yet provide no evidence of a security threat?

I find that strange.

Then you have the case put forward that this is to protect the rights of women. How can this be the case if they are removing their right to wear the clothes that some feel comfortable in? This item of clothing may not be required by Islamic law or the Quran but there are those who choose to wear it.

The counter to this is that the husbands of the aforementioned women force their wives to wear the Burqa. If this is the case then the state is further creating problems for them as their husbands may not even allow them out of the house. What will the French government do to protect their rights in this situation? Nothing...

We are supposed to be free citizens in this country and to ban items of clothing creates a fundamental paradox. Like I said it's a slippery slope.

I love how in this article below Caroline Spelman, who as Environment Secretary is the second most powerful woman in the Cabinet, gets blasted by the other male members of government as moronic for voicing her views on the Burqa. Her belief is that "wearing a burka can be empowering and dignified for Muslim women."

So these guys are looking out for women's rights?

Bull $@#t!

Lets ban burqas to protect the dignity of women! But lets also publicly humiliate one of the few women in parliament for her contrasting view.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Plenty of women choose to wear this whether anyone here believes it or not. The view that all their husbands are forcing them into it, although it may be true in some cases, on the whole it is a damaging stereotype.

edition.cnn.com...

Therefore I believe this has nothing to do with the benefit of society as a whole, this is a dig at Islam and there will be more to come over the next 10 years no doubt about it.

Next on the list Minaret bans across Europe.

reply to post by Big Raging Loner


Some fair points made, will have to see what happens in the future.

Having just eaten some food myself and feeling much better for it I think I will leave this thread for others to read and comment on should they so desire.

Been good getting it out there BRL, til the next time buddy lol

Originally posted by Big Raging Loner
Plenty of women choose to wear this whether anyone here believes it or not. The view that all their husbands are forcing them into it, although it may be true in some cases, on the whole it is a damaging stereotype[] Therefore I believe this has nothing to do with the benefit of society as a whole, this is a dig at Islam []

Thats what I see.