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Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by ANOK
To some degree your are right, but this violent behavior is something that is an inherent part of us that has surfaced all through history. And when there is no overpowering force controlling it, it will surface.
About your the workers owning the workplace, that has not much to do with enforcing laws and protecting citizens. I think the only effective way to do this is by powerful government that has a monopoly on violence and can not be undermined by a relative small group.
Opponents of capitalism and the state point to the fact that the existing law making and law enforcement infrastructure acts primarily for the rich and powerful. In effect, the wealthy elite, who live in untold luxury from the proceeds of property and labour time stolen from the masses, are just thieves on a grand scale. Their institutionalised theft, however, is perfectly legal. Take the recent cases of the big 6 energy companies that hauled in record profits by introducing unprecedented price hikes that consigned thousands to fuel poverty; or the City speculators who made millions by gambling on the misery wreaked by the economic downturn.
Originally posted by mnemeth1
The State can do nothing to protect me, it can only punish those who are caught after the fact. And its track record at that is horrible.
... freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice... Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality...Mikhail Bakunin , the founding father of Anarchism 1814 - 1876
Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by ANOK
I am less optimistic about human nature. As long as people are well educated this may work. But, since you can't enforce education either, I suspect there will be a significant part that will not be very educated. And these people will fall back to primitive instincts more likely.
When I look at the country I live in, material poverty doesn't really exists. There is enough money for everyone, even (or maybe especially) the poorest people buy IPhones and 50 inch LCD's etc. But when you look at mental poverty, there is enough around. And this IMO is the real problem. People won't just start behaving because you tell them to.
Originally posted by ANOK
Why would we not have an education system? It won't be as it is now but it doesn't mean we'll all give up educating people. We are going forward here not back.
If we fall back to our 'primitive' instincts this means we will act on our true nature and it has been found that we are naturally altruistic and cooperative. We are naturally social creatures and can not survive successfully on our own. We would naturally form social groups and cooperate for the good of the group, not ourselves as it is now due to capitalism and the conditioning through the state school system.
In a society that puts emphasis on cooperation rather than competition then people will change.
I also believe that this system created the culture of TV watching and and wanting the lastest Iphone. There is not a lot of motivation for people to want to educate themselves, or better themselves. It's easier to buy the Iphone for that instant gratification.
We get these Iphones and stuff, and the social conditioning to buy them, because of the private ownership of the means of production, and it's need to make profit for the private owner above what is actually good for society.
Turning the population into selfish consumers with no consideration of the societal problems it causes that effect all of us. Except the capitalists, as they are the puppet masters and they only benefit.
Socialism will not utopia, it would be a rude wake up call for a lot of people.
[edit on 7/28/2010 by ANOK]
Originally posted by -PLB-
Of course humans have a lot of other qualities also. But violence, competition, greed and such are also human nature.
I don't believe this behavior is created by the system. I think this is just the way humans are, this is how we evolved to be. Capitalism is just a way of exploiting this human property. That is why capitalism is so successful, no matter what culture or country.
Bottom line is though that most people prefer an easy life, not a hard working low standard of living one. So this kind of country would not be a preferable choice for most people.
I think capitalistic socialism is the best way to go for now. Humans are just not ready yet for the next step, whatever this step may be. I don't think you can easily change how people are just by changing the system.