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Why does the European Union scare some people?

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posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 06:41 PM
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Im sorry but each country in the EU has there own leaders the EU has a parliment which elected members from all member countries are elected in there own country ( hmm sounds like the house of reps) Americans bash the EU because there scared the it might become more powerfull then the US. Oh wait the Euro is stronger then the dollar. Im an American living in the EU. No one here that I know is crying about losing thier soveriegnty. Its people that dont understand the EU structure that think its bad or whatever. Im sick of people saying things that they have no clue. Globalization baaa. This is a good thing for Europe that it can build up its economy give better care to its people give people hope. Do you know how much money farmers get in the EU yes farmers. Some get more then me in a year. The standard of living in the EU is better then the US. Free health care.I know that in each country there are problems but problems are everywhere. Oh and microcips give me a break.




posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by paperclip
Why should we hang on to our past as a way to express our national identity?? European past in one big mess, wars, murders, colonisation, kings queens... why hold on to that?? Why hold on to the source of ALL conflicts?? Why not draw the line and let the past be just that, the past.
As a human race, we should move FORWARD to unity, and by that I dont mean just erasing borders, but real unity, ONE, just humans, nothing more nothing less. National identities and the past is what stops us from that.

I myself think that EU is the best idea this continent has ever had.

It is not some shady plan to implant microchips and control people, it has given europeans FREEDOM from wars, opression, a step closer to real unity. There is nothing wrong with that.

Coming from one of the smaller countries of the EU, I can only say that it is great to have a nation like Germany tell us how to run our business, they do it pretty well i think. NOBODY here is against that, we dont think that we are losing our national identity because we are getting excelent economical help from Germany. We WANT them to do it.

EURO currency has made life in EU and economy in EU about a million times easier and better. The only reason against it is, again, national identity of not having some butcher from the past smiling at you from bills and coins.

The benefits for students are HUGE. When you graduate within EU borders, it is a EU degree and enables you to work in any EU country.

People can travel much easier now that there are no borders. Foreigners with a permanent visa of any EU country can travel all across EU without restrictions.

I can go on and on here with benefits of this union.




Seeing as my grandfather died to prevent Germany from telling me how to live my life I'm not about to surrender that because you think its a good idea.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Kriskaos
Im sorry but each country in the EU has there own leaders the EU has a parliment which elected members from all member countries are elected in there own country ( hmm sounds like the house of reps) Americans bash the EU because there scared the it might become more powerfull then the US. Oh wait the Euro is stronger then the dollar. Im an American living in the EU. No one here that I know is crying about losing thier soveriegnty. Its people that dont understand the EU structure that think its bad or whatever. Im sick of people saying things that they have no clue. Globalization baaa. This is a good thing for Europe that it can build up its economy give better care to its people give people hope. Do you know how much money farmers get in the EU yes farmers. Some get more then me in a year. The standard of living in the EU is better then the US. Free health care.I know that in each country there are problems but problems are everywhere. Oh and microcips give me a break.


Hmm, most British farmers are living on less than 11,000 a year and many are going bankrupt. So you must have a real # job.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Kriskaos
Im sorry but each country in the EU has there own leaders the EU has a parliment which elected members from all member countries are elected in there own country ( hmm sounds like the house of reps) Americans bash the EU because there scared the it might become more powerfull then the US. Oh wait the Euro is stronger then the dollar. Im an American living in the EU. No one here that I know is crying about losing thier soveriegnty. Its people that dont understand the EU structure that think its bad or whatever. Im sick of people saying things that they have no clue. Globalization baaa. This is a good thing for Europe that it can build up its economy give better care to its people give people hope. Do you know how much money farmers get in the EU yes farmers. Some get more then me in a year. The standard of living in the EU is better then the US. Free health care.I know that in each country there are problems but problems are everywhere. Oh and microcips give me a break.


Hmm, most British farmers are living on less than 11,000 a year and many are going bankrupt. So you must have a real # job.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 07:03 PM
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Hi paper clip,

re : national identity,

I don't think those who oppose their countries joining a federal Europe are doing so solely out of an expression of national identity. I'm not even sure exactly what that means. One's regional identity depends who your talking to. To an American I'm European, to a Scot I'm English, To a Londoner I'm Northern, to a Yorkshireman I'm Lancastrian, and to a Burnley FC fan I'm just a c""t!
.

I really don't think "national identity" that much to do with it. It's about political representation, and having a government that is big enough to fulfill it's role, representing a body of people small enough to allow meaningful democratic expression. I believe that 450 million people is too big, and will leave many feeling disenfranchised, particularly with the obvious cultural and linguistic differences.

[edit on 17-6-2004 by muppet]



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 07:13 PM
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Sorry to hear that Last free Man. Is it that bad for farmers in the UK. I mean they get cash from the EU depending on size of land and also if it meets EU standards.

GO EU..



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 08:31 PM
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I believe that people will unite, in one way or another. If the future will be ruled by an iron hand of dictators, or by a true united people, is left to see.

Remember that we all are from this world. In the middle ages, we were nations, batteling against each other, tying to conquer each other. Imagine this in space, which could happen if mankind isn't united when colonizing space.

National identity? This is protected by a confederate way, which I see the EU is made of. Sure, it may be controlled by a smaller group, but remember that they can not control us. If the people were willing, they could smash just about everything, including any nation, any union whatsoever.

But since people, as far as I can see, agree on the EU question, then there must be the interest of the majority.

Because with separation, each nation becomes lonely, trade fades of and war will be the everyday reality. While it may still be a big punch of capitalism in every corner, you got to agree that selling goods is better than throwing bombs at each other.

The New World Order? What New World Order? Do you really think their troops are going to shoot innocent people? 100? 1000? - granted. 1,000,000? Sure, if necessary. All people (except those with military careers and people who agree with their agenda) in the EU? Not a chance. Not unless they develop a virus or something like that, which they can control. And this technology is still far from reality.



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by muppet
Hi Strangelands (again!
)


Aloha. It seems we're going to keep bumping into one another on threads like these



Originally posted by muppet
As a Scot.. what's there feeling up there about the EU? I know I'm asking you to generalize, but this and our discussion on the other thread had me thinking about the implications if for example England came down very strongly in the No camp, and Scotland very stongly in the Yes camp..


Well, I can only draw conclusions from my own experience, but I think the situation in Scotland is something like this...

Generally, Scots are in favour of the EU: partly because we're accustomed to being ruled from a different country, partly because we have strong agricultural and manufacturing industries which benefit from contact with the EU, and partly because we have historic links to Europe which England doesn't - many in Scotland still refer to France as "the auld ally". The Nationalist movement in Scotland also supports closer ties with Europe, since they think that a distinctly Caledonian presence in the EU will make the ultimate leap to independance all the easier.

As for the future, that's harder to judge. Should the UK sign up the EU in full, I don't foresee disagreement or trouble from Scotland. If, on the other hand, Blair takes us further from the heart of Europe, I suspect that may further galvanise the nationalist movement, resulting in a greater call for independance. As I said before, if the UK pulls out of the EU, Scotland and Wales won't be part of it for long, particularly when you remember that Scotland is larger than some of the countries which are full members of the EU in their own right.

Mind you, to read The Last Free Man's posts, you'd think England was the name of our country already... but being a northerner, you probably feel as removed from London as I do, am I right?


Originally posted The Last Free Man
Seeing as my grandfather died to prevent Germany from telling me how to live my life I'm not about to surrender that because you think its a good idea.


Assuming your grandfather died in one of the world wars and not in some horrific industrial accident, I'm going to assume that he died, like all the heroes who fell inthose wars, in the name of liberty and democracy. Don't you owe it to all those who gave their lives - your grandfather in particular - to look beyond petty nationalism and embrace a peaceful, harmonious, and above all positive future?


Originally posted The Last Free Man
Hmm, most British farmers are living on less than 11,000 a year and many are going bankrupt. So you must have a real job.


Is this point really important enough that you felt the urge to make it twice? It does, however, bring me to an interesting nugget of information I uncovered today.

According to the latest figures from the independant National Institute of Economic and Social Research, full withdrawal from Europe would cost this country 23 billion a year in grants, supplements, trade agreements, tax concessions and so on. In addition, we export 105 billion worth of goods to the EU every year - a figure which would be reduced by up to 50%, according to analysts. Add to that the prediction that economic growth in the UK would be a startling 2.5% lower if we withdrew from the EU, and you have a glimpse at the economic wreckage which would be left in the UKIP's wake if they got their way.

Perhaps the most interesting fact, however, is that it would take in excess of two hundred full-time lawyers eight years - and between two and two-and-a-half parliamentary term's worth of legislation - to sever the links between the UK and the EU.

I'm pretty sure we can all think of better things Parliament could be doing with their time - like ignoring the minority of naysayers and getting more involved at the heart of the great European project, constructing a political, social, idealogical and economic framework which will be a gift to our children and our children's children.

After all, The Last Free Man, don't you want to leave your descendants a better world than the one the men of your grandfather's generation left for us?

[edit on 18-6-2004 by StrangeLands]



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by StrangeLands
As I said before, if the UK pulls out of the EU, Scotland and Wales won't be part of it for long, particularly when you remember that Scotland is larger than some of the countries which are full members of the EU in their own right.

thanks for that. Very interesting.
As a Northerner, yes, some people do feel a little removed from London and the SE, but not in any political sense as such. Certainly no sense around of people wanting to be more independent from it.

An independent Scotland though? I could see that. At least it would solve the age bartender argument as to whether or not Scottish 5 pound notes are legal tender in the UK![EDIT.. I mean England! whoops!]


(the queen might be a bit miffed though
. Will you let her keep Balmoral? )

[edit on 18-6-2004 by muppet]



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 09:38 AM
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All under One. One eye watches all....!



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 09:47 AM
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You really don't want the EU. The EU seems to be too much like the US federal government and let me tell you that thing is a monster out of control. The EU will slowly eat away at the rights of the individual nations much like the federal government has done here in the US with states rights. You will find yourselves powerless and you will find the future of your country dictated to you by a small group of people most of which are not even from your country. What was wrong with Europe as it was before? It wasn't broken so it got fixed



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 11:16 AM
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Indy do you have any facts to support your claim??? How is it out of control? How is it eating ?? You really dont have a clue.



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 11:35 AM
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What was wrong with Europe as it was before?


As you may have recalled, Europe stated both World Wars, and this continent has killed more people within a century than any other place on earth. Then there was the cold war, which was really the Soviet's fault, but really not, because Hitler started a war which resulted in the cold war situation.

What's more? Well, before that we had Napoleon, and then all those civil wars and so on. Even though Europe was the first "modern" continent, but the only one with so many wars.

Oh, and the problems in ex-Yugoslavia...

There are many reasons why we need a strong union.

And people fear the EU? What about America? Isn't the United States like smaller countries within one? How many wars have there been in the US? Two? Three? How many deaths? More than the European?

What about the situation in Russia? Asia? Africa? Compare those continents and get a picture.

So you see, unions help people come together, and repels wars and other not-desirable crap.


[edit on 2004/6/18 by RX84]



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 11:37 AM
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Kriskaos... do you even live in the US? If you did you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. And if you think the federal government is behaving and not medling in states affairs then I must tell you that you have slept through quite a bit.



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 11:39 AM
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And if you think the federal government is behaving and not medling in states affairs then I must tell you that you have slept through quite a bit.


So you prefer warfare than trading?



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by Kriskaos
How is it out of control?


An equally fair question might be, how is it IN control?

By that I mean can you briefly explain the planned democratic structure of the union, it's key assemblies and representatives, and the process by which legislation is proposed, debated and passed through the system. How does this legislation relate to that passed the democratically elected sovereign governments of the individual nation states, and what are the key safeguards protect a member state's rights to act in it's own interest, even if these actions are contrary to European policy?


[edit on 18-6-2004 by muppet]



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by RX84

And if you think the federal government is behaving and not medling in states affairs then I must tell you that you have slept through quite a bit.


So you prefer warfare than trading?


I think European nations had their last war back in the 40's . I don't think they have the stomach for another one. Trading always existed between the nations. Plus you can lower trade barriers without putting in something like the EU.



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by StrangeLands


Generally, Scots are in favour of the EU: partly because we're accustomed to being ruled from a different country


Strangelands, I had to smile at this and go slightly off-topic because you Scots have now got your revenge. Half the cabinet is Scottish and Scottish MPs get to vote in the House of Commons as well as in the Scottish Parliament, allowing them to impose Labour's unpopular policies (for example, tuition fees) on the English whilst avoiding them in Scotland.

You have to admit that the tables have been turned somewhat?



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by muppet

An equally fair question might be, how is it IN control?

By that I mean can you briefly explain the current democratic structure of the union, it's key assemblies and representatives, and the process by which legislation is proposed, debated and passed through the system. How does this legislation relate to that passed the democratically elected sovereign governments of the individual nation states, and what are the key safeguards protect a member state's rights to act in it's own interest, even if these actions are contrary to European policy?



Exactly, muppet, it's all been deliberately set up to be as chaotic and as confusing as possible and this lack of transparency is one of the reasons that so many of us in the UK view the whole operation with suspicion and disdain.

As far as I know, the simple answer is that EU law has primacy over the national laws of member nations in the areas of Evironment (in the widest sense), Employment, Trade, etc.

The hardline euro-federalists wish to extend that to defence, immigration, home affairs, foreign affairs/defence, social policy, tax and probably a few others which I haven't mentioned.

This is what's being debated at the moment in the consitution summit.

Blair says he's drawn a line in the sand over certain key issues, but even if he is successful, we can all see which way we're being dragged.

We'll compromise this time on other areas so that Blair can come back victorious and say he's kept control of a couple of key policies. Then, in five years time there'll be another treaty or constitutional revision and we'll have to give some more power and control away - twas ever thus with Europe.

The only answer is withdrawal from all areas of the EU apart from a clear free trade area.

After all, if a nation no longer has control of its defence, tax, borders, home affairs, foreign policy and army then there really isn't much left.

Very depressing. How does one emigrate to New Zealand?



posted on Jun, 18 2004 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by Indy
You really don't want the EU. The EU seems to be too much like the US federal government and let me tell you that thing is a monster out of control. The EU will slowly eat away at the rights of the individual nations much like the federal government has done here in the US with states rights. You will find yourselves powerless and you will find the future of your country dictated to you by a small group of people most of which are not even from your country. What was wrong with Europe as it was before? It wasn't broken so it got fixed


The US federal government is not a "monster out of control". And I say this as an American who is a major States' Rights advocate (as most Texans are). The US Constitution clearly outlines who can do what.
I love the US Constitution!


As for British government, I find it facinating, if not confusing. How does everyone know who does what if there's no Constitution or Charter outlining it?
Is the Parliment in London the Parliment for both England and the UK at the same time? If London is the capital of the UK, does England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have their own capitals, with their own Parliments? Is there the equivalent of a "governor", like each State has in the 50 States, in England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland? It's all so confusing to an outsider like me! lol



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