I don't understand why the European Union (EU) scares some people. It sounds like a good idea to me, and nothing to do with conspiracies of any kind...

The European Union is a confederacy of soverign nations that work together economically and politically for the betterment of all its members. The EU is drafting a constitution which will ensure the protection of both individual rights & freedoms and the soverignty of its member nations. How is this a bad thing?

I think that the EU greatly simplifies dealing with Europe. Rather than deal with 45 seperate nations, with 45 seperate economies, at a time, one day other countries (like the U.S.) will simply be able to deal with the EU as a single entity.

In short, I like the EU. It's a great idea! I forsee the EU eventually containing all of continental Europe except Russia, but including Turkey. Does anyone think that Iceland or Israel may one day join as well?

Because we lose our right to govern ourselves. English people dont not want to be governed by the French or Germans or Spaniards or the Dutch etc...

If it sound like such a great idea why doesn't the USA join with Canada, Peru, Bolivia, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina etc... and unify North, Central and South America so that Europe doesnt have to deal with x amount of nations on the American continent. How about an American parliament in Rio where Brazians and Mexicans can create laws for Americans. How about subsidising Mexican farming so that in can compete wioth your own and allowing Columbian to fish in your water.

The point is were losing our sovreignty.


[edit on 17-6-2004 by The Last Free Man]

Originally posted by The Last Free ManThe point is were losing our sovreignty you dumb redneck prick.

Keep your ignorance where it belongs, in your own mind.

That was rude and uncalled for. If you disagree, fine tell me why or tell me that you have a gut feeling about it; but name calling is childish and immature.

Your absolutly right. Please accept my appologies.

This is an issue I feel very strongly about, as I care about my national identity and my right to be governed by my own people.

It seems as if my government sees that right as irrelavant and is willing to throw it away very casually.

Before my research, I was a supporter of the EU. Now hold your fire!!! Listen to me please!

I thought that such an organization would be a good idea because it would create solidarity in Europe, and balance the scales of power in the world a bit better. Also, it would help to harmonize the societies... but that's ONLY if used in a benevolent manner. On the downside, I realized the possibilities for the downsizing and decimation of different cultures and ideals.

And THEN I learned about Globalization, which if used properly, wouldn't be so bad. But it is likely that, at this time, it would be used malevolently for things like a domineering world army and a microchipped population. As long as the EU doesn't turn into more of a fascist state than it is becoming, the idea really wouldn't be so bad. I agree that power should be distrubuted amongst their own sovereign countries; Holland has no business telling what France can do with its exports, for example. I fear that the idea of the EU, however, is to transfer power from the hands of the many to the hands of the few, and that is a bad thing, my friend.

Originally posted by The Last Free Man
Because we lose our right to govern ourselves. English people dont not want to be governed by the French or Germans or Spaniards or the Dutch etc...

If it sound like such a great idea why doesn't the USA join with Canada, Peru, Bolivia, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina etc... and unify North, Central and South America so that Europe doesnt have to deal with x amount of nations on the American continent. How about an American parliament in Rio where Brazians and Mexicans can create laws for Americans. How about subsidising Mexican farming so that in can compete wioth your own and allowing Columbian to fish in your water.

This persons abuse aside i agree with everything he said.

The fact is the EU is Hitlers dream made manifest. A European wide empire controlled by an elite few. telling us all the peoples of the EU what to think, feel.

Mark my words if the EU isnt stopped then the next stage is to increase the control of individual peoples, how we think how we behave.

The EU must NOT be allowed to get that far.

The European Union, in my opinion, is a major step in controlling all the people in that area of Europe under one central Government. This sounds like the ideas of One World Conspirators. The New World Order.

Once all these countries are under one rule, there can be no conflicts in terms of war between them.

It will not be long before there are Patriot Type Acts initiated by the EU.

I said this is another post...but the EU as it is will allow the three major countries in the EU, England, France, and Germany to override any decisions by the EU. So I'd feel more sorry for the little guy. Also, as you may note, that was the original basis for America and looked how the states got overridden by the government. Thats whats scary, the idea of centralization.

[edit on 17-6-2004 by Jamuhn]

No problem. I can understand why this issue would be a serious one for you. My starting this thread was to show that, on the surface, it doesn't sound like the EU is a bad idea; but I very much want input from Europeans on the details of the EU, as I am reading about it from the outside in.

I want all 191 countries on the Earth (U.S. & U.K. included of course) to maintain their soverignty, no matter what international organizations they enter into. As an American, I worry about the soverignty of the U.S. concerning the UN, NATO, and the OAS...

In agree its a method of control and not for the better either. People scoff at films like Gattica/1984/Equalibrium but the EU is the formative stages of such an (evil,bad) ideal.

Originally posted by ThunderCloud
No problem. I can understand why this issue would be a serious one for you. My starting this thread was to show that, on the surface, it doesn't sound like the EU is a bad idea; but I very much want input from Europeans on the details of the EU, as I am reading about it from the outside in.

I want all 191 countries on the Earth (U.S. & U.K. included of course) to maintain their soverignty, no matter what international organizations they enter into. As an American, I worry about the soverignty of the U.S. concerning the UN, NATO, and the OAS...

Recently all accross Europe and especially in the UK, National Independance parties won massive swings in the votes for the european parliament.

The UK Independance Party gained a 400% increase in its number of MEPs.
In local election Labour finished third. The first time in history, I think, that the govering party has finished outside the top two.

The British people dont want this, yet as we speak Tony Blair is negotiating a European Constitiution on behalf of a country that doesn't want it.

We aren't even sure we'll get a vote on whether or not to accept it, and this is supposed to be a democracy. Go figure.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I said this is another post...but the EU as it is will allow the three major countries in the EU, England, France, and Germany to override any decisions by the EU. So I'd feel more sorry for the little guy.

Hi Jamuhn.. funny.. read this on the other thread and kept forgetting to respond..

That's an interesting point. You're right, that's the way it would pan out if the leading powers get their way is as you say, and one of the reasons (other than those mentioned above), I oppose it. On the one hand they are trying to sell to us as something fair and democratic, yet on the other we are being told we must join up quickly or risk losing our influence, which seems like a paradox to me.

Like the previous posters, I agree it's all about who you want to govern you. Bigger isn't always better, particularly when it comes to political representation, plus it's a lot easier to follow the subtleties of political discourse when you understand the language!


[edit on 17-6-2004 by muppet]

I think the EU is a very bad idea. I also think the Euro is a very bad idea as well. Europe is rich with history. Each country having its own identity and its own culture. The beauty is being able to from country to country and experience something new and exciting. Now what is it? An attempt to be more "American". And it is my OPINION from what I have seen is that this has greatly harmed Europe and each country as individual nations. I don't go to Europe so I can see McDonalds, Burger King, Walmart, Toys R us and every other American junk store. I go because I want to experience how they live. Not just blow a bank load of money to live like an American 3500 miles away.

Edit: The reason the Euro is bad is because your currency is part of your identity. Fellow users from the UK do you really want to give up the Pound for the Euro? No way. Your currency is part of your history.

[edit on 17-6-2004 by Indy]

Originally posted by Indy
Edit: The reason the Euro is bad is because your currency is part of your identity. Fellow users from the UK do you really want to give up the Pound for the Euro? No way. Your currency is part of your history.
[edit on 17-6-2004 by Indy]

It's more than that, it's an essential part of our sovereignty. If we were to abandon sterling, we would be at the mercy of a foreign central bank and it's monetary decisions. There's plenty to lose and nothing to gain by it.

Here we go again.

Originally posted by rustiswordz
The fact is the EU is Hitlers dream made manifest.

Any closer to finding any proof of this, Rustiswordz, or is it still empty rhetoric?

The EU is not - is not - the big scary federalist state drawn by tabloid headlines. It does not pose a "threat" to our sovereignty, any more than being in the UN or NATO is a "threat" to our sovereignty. It is more fairly democratic than the system we have in the UK at the moment. It does not compromise our rich heritage and history, it protects them and allows us to share in and learn from the history and heritage of our neighbour countries.

Originally posted by The Last Free Man
The UK Independance Party gained a 400% increase in its number of MEPs.

That's right, they did. In fact, they gained - drum roll - 16% of the total vote. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but 16% isn't exactly a mandate from the people, is it? The UKIP are right-wing nuts representing a small-minded single-issue manifesto, and I'm immensely gratified to see that 84% of the votes cast were for real politics and real politicians, not has-been bigots and xenophobic isolationalists.

Originally posted by muppet
It's more than that, it's an essential part of our sovereignty. If we were to abandon sterling, we would be at the mercy of a foreign central bank and it's monetary decisions.

Well, call me Mr. Europhile, but I'd rather have someone else's currency that worth something than a picture of the Queen's head which has been devalued as part of a crippled economy. But that'll be alright, won't it, because at least it'll be the Queen and not some Johnny-Foreigner sausage-eating wine-swilling oaf, what?

To answer the original question, ThunderCloud, the EU scares people because it's unknown, and they like to cling to their social, political and economic security blankets. Mindless euroscepticism will leave the UK - and any other European country which doesn't wake up to the political realities of the 21st century - terminally marginalised.

Originally posted by StrangeLands

That's right, they did. In fact, they gained - drum roll - 16% of the total vote. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but 16% isn't exactly a mandate from the people, is it? The UKIP are right-wing nuts representing a small-minded single-issue manifesto, and I'm immensely gratified to see that 84% of the votes cast were for real politics and real politicians, not has-been bigots and xenophobic isolationalists.

Biogt = One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Sound just like one Mr Blair.

BTW, the idea that Europe won't trade with us if we don't join is laughable, do you really think Germany will stop exporting BMW's and Mercedes to us. The French will stop exporting wine to us. Of course not.

What will happen is we lose the right to set our own tax rates, to legislate our own laws etc...

16% is not a big issue I agree, but, the damage to Tony Blair and Labour is when you take into account the swing to other parties.

As for the xenophobic isolationalists part, please. This is nothing to do with isolating this country due to a dislike of foreigners. Its about English people governing English people, the same for the French and Dutch etc.. alike.

The EU should be the trade block is was meant to be, and if were not moving toward a federal state why do we need a constitution.

Hi Strangelands (again!)

As a Scot.. what's there feeling up there about the EU? I know I'm asking you to generalize, but this and our discussion on the other thread had me thinking about the implications if for example England came down very strongly in the No camp, and Scotland very stongly in the Yes camp..

Could you see that happening? Would it cause a constitutional crisis or even the breakup of the UK with Scotland joining the Euro and England staying out? i'm just wondering about the strength of feeling about this issue

Personally I think that point is way off, and most Scots feel more British than European, but I may be dead wrong on that... what's your thoughts?

Why should we hang on to our past as a way to express our national identity?? European past in one big mess, wars, murders, colonisation, kings queens... why hold on to that?? Why hold on to the source of ALL conflicts?? Why not draw the line and let the past be just that, the past.
As a human race, we should move FORWARD to unity, and by that I dont mean just erasing borders, but real unity, ONE, just humans, nothing more nothing less. National identities and the past is what stops us from that.

I myself think that EU is the best idea this continent has ever had.
It is not some shady plan to implant microchips and control people, it has given europeans FREEDOM from wars, opression, a step closer to real unity. There is nothing wrong with that.

Coming from one of the smaller countries of the EU, I can only say that it is great to have a nation like Germany tell us how to run our business, they do it pretty well i think. NOBODY here is against that, we dont think that we are losing our national identity because we are getting excelent economical help from Germany. We WANT them to do it.

EURO currency has made life in EU and economy in EU about a million times easier and better. The only reason against it is, again, national identity of not having some butcher from the past smiling at you from bills and coins.

The benefits for students are HUGE. When you graduate within EU borders, it is a EU degree and enables you to work in any EU country.

People can travel much easier now that there are no borders. Foreigners with a permanent visa of any EU country can travel all across EU without restrictions.

I can go on and on here with benefits of this union.

Originally posted by muppet
[edit on 17-6-2004 by Indy]
It's more than that, it's an essential part of our sovereignty. If we were to abandon sterling, we would be at the mercy of a foreign central bank and it's monetary decisions. There's plenty to lose and nothing to gain by it.

As a non-American, you are already at the mercy of a foreign central bank and it's stupid monetary decisions.

As long as the US$ is the world reserve currency, we're all stuck with America's seemingly non-stop profligate spending and it's results.

it has given europeans FREEDOM from wars, opression, a step closer to real unity.

Many countries in Europe are involved in the Iraqi war. Part of the EU is to be able to be united in case of war.

As a non-American, you are already at the mercy of a foreign central bank and it's stupid monetary decisions. As long as the US$ is the world reserve currency, we're all stuck with America's seemingly non-stop profligate spending and it's results.

I would point you to the International Monetary Fund controlled by many banks with a base of operations within Europe. The International Monetary Fund is a level above the Fed Reserve in the US.