H.R. 5741: Mandatory 2 year Service to Federal Government

reply to post by oniongrass


You have judgement in your heart. Judgement is God's alone. Confess to your inequity and weakness and fall to your knees slave.

From the Gospel of Matthew

www.bartleby.com...

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

and
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37 ¶ Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

39 ¶ And he spake a parable unto them; Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? Mt. 15.14

40 The disciple is not above his master: Mt. 10.24, 25 · Joh. 13.16 ; 15.20 but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

Isnt this fun?

Originally posted by oniongrass
reply to post by TheWrongStuff

 

But let's think about this. I know that servicemen and women have no choice in the matter and I do not blame them (although legally they did volunteer) but, did our national security here really require us to go and destroy Iraq? Grenada? Vietnam?

I don't see that daddio is scared. I see that he's probably as skeptical of the orders you were given as I am.

Thanks for those remarks, it is obvious to anyone who reads these ridiculous posts that there is an inferiority complex or some other deep seeded problem with this particular individual.

He wants me to quote other people? Why would i do that and what would it prove or show, he would still slander me and others because we don't agree with Socialism or communism. I really don't think he knows the difference and does not understand the natural rights of man and animal to NOT be governed but to be left alone to live freely as the entity sees fit so long as they harm no one else or damage no one elses property or violate no others rights to exist.

Freedom is free, you have to have the balls to claim it and keep and protect it. What is the cost? Knowledge. Isn't knowledge free? Common Sense is free, is it not? Where's the cost? I will protect my own, thank you very much.

Edit to add........, I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

[edit on 25-8-2010 by daddio]

reply to post by daddio


I keep saying all you have are opinions and complaints and insults. A finger to point at the accused and no answers. You cry like a little girl about 2 years of watered down service so I’m willing to bet there will be sufficient time on your knees.

You don't quote any examples because you can’t find a single instance in history whereby it was acceptable for men of a certain age to not participate in government / civil / military service. At least until the last few generations. Security and freedom secured by those who serve this country. True, there are relatively few laws requiring service, but you don’t care about facts, you seem to only want excuses to justify your sense of entitlement. You can spew what seems to be a loose liberal agenda about serving a corporate monster, etc. But it’s really starting to sound like you just hate on those that are in front of you in line.

You have displayed willful ignorance when commenting upon my posts to the point that I question that you aren't simply trolling because you can't get attention at home. You have also displayed an inability to actually comment upon the topic other to state almost categorically that you are right because some book you read said so and that's pretty much that.

Inferiority complex? Take a long look in the mirror little boy. Now go look up the phrase Psychological Transference. You obviously have deep seeded issues in regards to someone owing you something. Probably stemming from extensive parental beatings as a child, general neglect, and what is seriously starting to sound like repressed homosexuality. Now don’t get me wrong, what you do is your business, but your need to take things so personally and fly completely off the handle with whatever it is that you are screaming about speaks to a real need for intimate attention from a trained professional…or a hooker, either way.

I think you guys are getting off track.

I'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me why, when I already have a job and pay taxes, therefor working my entire life as a revenue earner for the government, I should have to go do additional work for the federal government?

reply to post by SWCCFAN


I'm too old to join. But if I weren't, I wouldn't anyway. Good luck getting this through, Rangel.

/Q

reply to post by mattifikation


Perfectly on track if you actually stop and read the bill. One side of the argument states that they should not HAVE to serve because it violates basic human rights and freedoms to require someone to serve against their wishes.

Uneducated claims have been made throughout the post pertaining to the quality of the US military being contingent upon voluntary service, even though the bill, which did not make it off the House floor states that military service is not required and provides grounds for conscientious objection.

The other side...mostly me at this point...says that you shouldn't HAVE to serve; you should WANT / NEED to serve. It’s really a manly, mine is bigger than yours kind of a thing.

Where we part ways, and I am paraphrasing here, is the reasoning behind the unwillingness to participate.

Claims have been made that various documents “guarantee” an individual these rights and it is the responsibility of the government to protect these rights. Birth right and paying taxes have been listed several times as a qualifier to be brought under this umbrella.

I maintain that this is very flawed logic. Ink on paper does not guarantee you anything; it’s just ink on paper. The US Government, though peopled by individual who I am certain are not all completely brain dead individually; collectively couldn’t finger paint. I think that Katrina was proof enough that waiting around for the government is a self imposed death sentence.

But do we as a people do our part. Do we monitor and question every decision from each of our representatives. One of the checks on the Congressional and Executive branches was always intended to be the skeptic observation by the citizens of this country. We have collectively fallen far short of our duties.

It is relevant to explore the cultural shift from the founding to the modern age. During America’s founding it was expected that men of a certain age entered into politics or military service. It was for the honor of yourself and your family. It was also intended as a rite of passage; one of the few that actually remain to us. I believe that the loss of so many of these rite’s lie within the context of this discussion as well.
We have become complacent, weak, needy, entitled, and far too pretentious. I stand firm in my beliefs that military service would tighten up that attitude problem very quickly. When men were allowed, expected one might say, to behave as men; this country rose from nothing to command much of the world. Now we retreat from liberal guilt, cripple the strong in our society, apologize to our enemies, endure ridicule from lesser countries and peoples, and step over each other in our haste to separate ourselves from the increased ire of the world; an action only necessary when one falters or hesitates on a direct path.

So to answer your question; you should not HAVE to serve. You should NEED to. There will be many who will look down upon you no matter what you say. Just read daddio’s posts above on his thought regarding those who have sacrificed greatly. On your deathbed long from now, wouldn’t you rather say that wrong or right, at least I did something? Or maybe not; myself, I could not bear the shame of living without having served.


[edit on 26-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]

[edit on 26-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]

We have indeed become week, needy, entitled. In good part it's because the tools of self-determination have been taken from us.

We cannot do most productive jobs. Those now exist in the third world. Lawns aren't mowed by neighborhood kids but by crews of immigrants, probably illegally present here but we can't get rid of them because their presence is US government policy. Cases to remove them are dismissed by order from the President. (That's the head of your chain of command, too, same guy.)

We cannot have careers in politics. That now takes massive millions of dollars. Instead of going into politics for a few years, serving, then leaving in the spirit of Cincinnatus, we have career politicians. It's obvious that some of them are imposed on us and we are not allowed to remove them. (Joseph Lieberman, John McCain, several recent Presidents, probably much of the rest of Congress.)

So all that is left is to "serve" in a role that is very subservient. A solder must unconditionally obey orders. If that means his is bigger than mine, well ... whatever. Mine must not be big enough to obey all those orders unconditionally.

When we are helpless, we act helpless. It is a rational reaction to actual circumstances.

Actually I don't mind the idea of national service. I like the idea of contributing to progress, to enlightenment. It's one of the reasons I'm here at all, probably. But I have little confidence in the government to allow me to serve in a way that I could do in good conscience. I wonder if the jobs open to "conscientious objectors" would also serve the same government agendas?



[edit on 26-8-2010 by oniongrass]

[edit on 26-8-2010 by oniongrass]

“We have indeed become week, needy, entitled. In good part it's because the tools of self-determination have been taken from us.”

Maybe for you. You need to stop with this generalization routine. Your life maybe the dregs but stop trying to drag the rest of us down with your apathy.

“We cannot do most productive jobs. Those now exist in the third world. Lawns aren't mowed by neighborhood kids but by crews of immigrants, probably illegally present here but we can't get rid of them because their presence is US government policy. “

I perform a high tech job and mow my own grass. Again, you must stop with this generalization. American's have a great deal of money and employ lawn maintenance workers. How is this a bad thing? We have so much that we employ other people who would not otherwise have jobs who, in turn, make purchase requiring sales tax that contributes to state income. Many outsourced jobs are returning to the US due, in large part, to quality issues. I know from my years in IT that many companies will avoid product purchases if the tech support does not house an American service center.

“Cases to remove them are dismissed by order from the President. (That's the head of your chain of command, too, same guy.)”

Not anymore, but I realize it has been a long discussion.

“We cannot have careers in politics. That now takes massive millions of dollars. Instead of going into politics for a few years, serving, then leaving in the spirit of Cincinnatus, we have career politicians. It's obvious that some of them are imposed on us and we are not allowed to remove them. (Joseph Lieberman, John McCain, several recent Presidents, probably much of the rest of Congress.)”

There seems to be no limit to the things that YOU cannot do.

“So all that is left is to "serve" in a role that is very subservient. A solder must unconditionally obey orders. If that means his is bigger than mine, well ... whatever. Mine must not be big enough to obey all those orders unconditionally.”

To serve is to bring honor. A soldier must obey orders, not because they are robots, but because doing otherwise may get someone killed.

“When we are helpless, we act helpless. It is a rational reaction to actual circumstances.”

Once again, what a sad life you must live.

“Actually I don't mind the idea of national service. I like the idea of contributing to progress, to enlightenment. It's one of the reasons I'm here at all, probably. But I have little confidence in the government to allow me to serve in a way that I could do in good conscience. I wonder if the jobs open to "conscientious objectors" would also serve the same government agendas?”

Read the bill. The jobs for the conscientious objectors are determined by the President; so yes. But you don't really seem to like the idea of service.





[edit on 26-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]

reply to post by TheWrongStuff


I'm sure that nothing I would accomplish under any such law would be something to be proud of on the last day of my life. Should the German people under Hitler's regime have felt some pressing need to serve their government?

That's what this is about. Serving the government. Not the country, the government.

Absolutely not. I'll serve them lead and brass before I serve them my soul.

reply to post by mattifikation




I’m sure that what you have managed to accomplish up to this point will span the ages. Not to keep beating a dead horse but this is one of those things where if you don't know, then you'll never understand. It’s not part of who you are and I can assure you, that is to your loss. Never the less; I find this concept to be extremely funny. I see great benefits to ones character being pressed to hard labor, especially when that person is very unwilling. A little back breaking labor in the blaring sun for crap pay and some grade A d-bag hauling off on you because their life sucks and there is nothing better to do really helps you keep life in perspective as you get older and things start to look a little rough.

I would also like to take a moment to point out that constantly referencing the Nazi's and Hitler when speaking about something you disagree with has completely deluded the strength behind the insult and detracts from the atrocities actually committed by the Nazi's.

reply to post by TheWrongStuff


Quite to the contrary, refusing to learn from the mistakes that the world made which allowed World War II and the Holocaust to happen are what dilute the atrocities committed. The only thing adding insult to any argument is when people pull the old "You can't possibly compare that to Hilter, because something like that can only happen once!" argument.

No. The slide may be longer and slower, but we are still heading down the same slope. The whole "It's just like the Nazis" argument is only becoming so overplayed because it is becoming so much more appropriate with each passing year.

Just because we start our wars on different continents, gun down our make believe enemies in the streets instead of gassing them in camps, and blame "Terrorists (Muslims)" instead of the Jews for our problems does not mean that our government is not just as evil as Hitler's.

If you think serving an evil government for awhile against our will would be good for us, then you sir are a serious problem to humanity.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by mattifikation]

Draft = No more tragedies like one perpetrated on the US and countries like Iraq by that turd Bush.

reply to post by mattifikation


And Godwin's law strikes again. Unpucker bro, we're just talking...until the Brown Shirts arrive at the address that I traced your IP address to...


This site is crazy. I’ve never even heard such melodrama. That is some of the darkest most depressing garbage I’ve had to endure in some time. I really pity the people that share your life. That has to be one trial after another. I mean, listen to yourself; evil government...though I will give you Dick Cheney...that cat looks like he flavors his Corn Flakes with new born baby souls..

..but how about a lot of the people currently running the government are of average intelligence and just Homer Simpson'd their way into office and found themselves completely in over their heads. According to the Unemployment Office; incompetence is not grounds to deny unemployment and I certainly think that it is not grounds for decrying true evil. Maybe just dumb.

How about those running the government are being manipulated by the same cast of characters that manipulate other governments and it was just our turn to get taxed? How about no matter how hard people try or no matter how well intentioned their efforts, sometimes stuff just goes to crap and you have to adjust and soldier on.

How about using all that dark angry energy to run for office or petition your representatives routinely...I do, no lie, I have alerts setup for decisions that I care about and effect my life and my profession and I petition my rep every chance I get...do you? Be the change you want in this life.

And to be clear, I don't want you to be pressed into military service. That doesn't help anyone. But selective service was already a reality. This law only tried to expand upon that to include those MEN, remember, at no point does this law actually refer to women..if you read it I mean...to participate in the security of our country. I know that is an issue with many Americans on this board, but they seem to act as though that security is someone else's duty.

I would like to also point out that the service required in the bill seems relatively tame and watered down for the advantages and personal skills that I KNOW most, if not all, people would benefit from. And yes, I think forcing a bunch of lazy entitled soft cry babies into some hard manual labor in order to earn their place at the table is freakin' hilarious and I will never concede that point.

Nothing America has done can ever compare to the horror of WWII. On the lighter side; it's not exactly like we're running around barbequing Muslims over a grill like some Raiders Tailgate party gone horribly wrong..Or right...Raiders fans are scary. On the real side; you need to bone up on your history. The Germans had nothing resembling the UN or an ROE that cripples soldiers on the ground. War is awful and I would not wish it upon anyone, yet here we are. I press you for a solution that does not involve the same atrocities that you are currently referring to. Not because I think that you can't; I'd just like to hear some actual solutions from this particular board instead of constant argument, hate, discontent, and a very unacceptable level of very unrealistic America bashing.

In conclusion; the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, any religious texts you choose to honor, nor War is a Racket by...some guy apparently, I stopped paying attention pretty early on...are not get out of jail free cards or a f'n doctors note excusing you from your responsibilities to your country. Nobody likes our government, especially people in the government, but if we truly want better and what we truly deserve than we must be our saviors and quit waiting for a hero to fall out of the sky.

Here's hoping that you have a beer and relax. Or not. I love conflict.




[edit on 27-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]

reply to post by jam321


Yep, good ol' Charlie.

I love how on ATS everyone was screaming that Bush wanted the draft, and yet it was this lovable Dem that was trying to push it thru!

It is hard to jump into a thread at page 30 as I really don't have the time to read all what has been discussed...

Mandatory service, as appealing as some may think goes against liberty and against self-governance.

How can one expect people to champion liberty when faced with the notion that you WILL fight for this country at an age in which this country generally sees you as an adult to make your own decisions?

The draft was a horrible idea, selective service is a horrible idea and inactive reserves is a horrible idea. The basic foundations of an army in regards to the United States of America was for enemies that were aggressors or internal enemies in terms of a rebellion. Not the mass sweep to have every person serve in the armed forces or even civil service for that matter.

We chose our own paths. The government is to only protect our abilities to peruse those paths without fear or want and under the notion that we are all equal under the law.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


First; you should really read the resolution. I posted a link up the post some.

We chose our own paths. The government is to only protect our abilities to peruse those paths without fear or want and under the notion that we are all equal under the law.

A valid point. We, however, do not live in an idealistic world whereby the best intentions of men are guarded and protected by rule of law alone. They are guarded and defended by young men and women who live with small dreams in their heart and an unparalleled bravery not seen in generations. We fail them and ourselves when we refuse to sacrifice something so small.

As clichéd as it might be; Freedom is not free. More than anything it is earned. Our birthright? For certain, but one to be attained, not handed out at the hospital as a door prize. I believe this truth to be self evident. Only those who have sacrificed, fell, bleed, and risen by the strength of their own will truly appreciate what it means to be free.





[edit on 27-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]

reply to post by TheWrongStuff

Wow you just think anyone who disagrees with you has a psychological problem. Sort of like what I've heard the military is doing these days. People with PTSD are denied benefits and paid treatment because they are said have a "psychological problem" instead.

We probably cannot afford to treat them and pay them as we should -- I guess this is our partial solution to that. But anyway ...

You think WWII was the worst thing we've ever been through? What about WWI, long trench warfare that had much higher casualty counts? What about the Civil War? Heck we went in fresh after WWII was half over, after the Axis was worn down quite a bit, had a successful landing in Normandy and more or less mopped up from there. The Pacific was worse. Our soldiers showed bravery under fire there as they always have, and as other solders on both sides also did, but we had the money and the armaments, and overpowering strength that made the difference.

Please give us your critical review of War is a Racket. I think Butler was essentially right. I haven't believed in any of the wars fought during my lifetime, so I have my doubts about all the old ones that have acquired a patina of age in the history books and no doubt improved in the telling, especially as history has been written by the winners. And we're learning more about those wars, like the very strong evidence that FDR could have defeated the Pearl Harbor attack but chose not to, etc.

In another post you said that I don't seem to believe in the idea of service, right after I said I did. What led you to say that, what even led you to dare to say it?

reply to post by oniongrass


Like I said kid; your attitude sucks. I haven’t seen a single actual review of the actual law on your part. My take is that it is a bunch of watered down community service.

What I have seen from you is a self righteous criticism of anything the US has done since its inception. Criticism is outstanding as an instructional tool; e.g. you may wish to evaluate your tone and attitude when shilling yourself off as a teacher; but when it attempts to stand on its own merits for any length of time it usually falls far short of the mark.

I have already given my review of the book. It was written by a worn soldier who, based on his actual experience…you get where I am going with this right?… was disillusioned by war. I don’t blame him. Military service is rough. War is truly hell. Sitting on your chair, typing criticism of those actions must take true heart and skill.

What I have not heard from you is a single equitable solution as how to handle the current dilemma. From my perspective this solution fits as good as any I have heard.

reply to post by TheWrongStuff


I'm sorry, but did you really just make the contention that nothing America has ever done was as bad as what the Nazis did? Care to remember how that war ended? Care to remember what Japanese Americans were busy during a good portion of that war? Have you forgotten what happened to the Native Americans?

Or do you want more recent examples?

The U.S. Government places sanctions on countries which impact nobody but their populations. Those populations suffer. They starve, they get sick, they live horrible but short lives and then they die while their dictators continue to live their lives out in elaborate mansions.

The U.S. Government is the world's largest trafficker in small arms. It exports war for profit, the deaths of those wars are on the Government's hands.

The U.S. Government traffics drugs, which have killed millions. I don't want to get into that too much here, per this site's TOS, but check out any of the hundreds of threads in the forum dedicated to the subject for more information.

The U.S. Government is one of the last in the world that uses depleted uranium in its ammunition, which will over time kill hundreds of thousands of people - most of them children who will be born with fatal birth defects.

You're right about one thing. The U.S. Government doesn't barbecue Muslims over a grill. They just stick them in places like Abu Ghraib and torture the everloving crap out of them. They have a practice extraordinary rendition, where they ship prisoners to other countries that allow them to be tortured for "information." Or sometimes we just keep them in a camp in Cuba and water board them.

The world produces enough food to feed every single person on it, and feed them well. Yet 2 billion people live in famine. Why? The two biggest causes are poverty and war. The U.S. Government has its hands in nearly every conflict in the world today, in most cases either directly causing the conflict or deliberately prolonging it. The U.S. Government's foreign economic policies are also a major cause of poverty in the world, including supporting countries that use sweat shop labor and the previously mentioned strategy of placing sanctions on other countries.

They assassinate U.S. citizens, and have admitted to it. They wiretap us without warrants, and admit to it. They limit our First Amendment rights to "Free speech zones" and admit to it. They limit our Second Amendment rights under "interstate commerce" laws and admit to it. They violate nearly all of our rights using similar shady tactics to "limit" them, and admit to it, and they have people like you convinced that you can place limits on a person's rights without violating them.

When a Government's activities are that far out of control, the sheer number of people they kill and how overt they are in doing so are inconsequential: At this stage, they have reached the upper limits of evil and the body count is simply a number people can look at to see how successful at evil they are.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. The U.S. exports and finances terrorism worldwide as one of its major foreign policy tools. Their policies have killed millions, they have likely caused billions to suffer. If you think it should be mandatory to serve the Government responsible for that, you're just a sick, sad little man.

For the record, I love America. I love our rights, I love our people, and I love our dream. I just hate the raging a-holes in the U.S. Federal Government who have hijacked this country. And no, voting and writing to our politicians does not solve the problem. We are told who to vote for by the media, we are brainwashed by that media to think that we have to listen to who they tell us to vote for, and I know for an absolute fact that politicians do not read the mail we send them.

[edit on 28-8-2010 by mattifikation]

Originally posted by TheWrongStuff ... What I have not heard from you is a single equitable solution as how to handle the current dilemma. From my perspective this solution fits as good as any I have heard.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "equitable" but if you mean a "good" solution -- I'm pretty sure there is none.

My attitude sucks? Your attitude sucks worse. So now we can leave it at that. Have a nice day.