The Arizona Law: Is It Racist? Here you decide!

reply to post by Gentill Abdulla


Ok, so you must think Mexico's immigration policy is racist to? Hell, that goes for most of the world too.

Tell me, how do you deport illegal Mexican immigrants who aren't brown? Under what circumstance is deporting Mexicans NOT racist to you?

EDIT: One other thing. The Supreme court defined what "reasonable suspicion" is. Its not like this is up for debate.

en.wikipedia.org...

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion.

In Terry v. Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a person can be stopped and briefly detained by a police officer based on a reasonable suspicion of involvement in a crime. If the officer additionally has reasonable suspicion that the person is armed, the officer may perform a search of the person's outer garments for weapons. Such a detention does not violate the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizure, though it must be brief. Reasonable suspicion does not provide grounds for arrest; however, an arrest can be made if facts discovered during the detention provide probable cause that the suspect has committed a crime.

[edit on 27-7-2010 by Hudson]

the Arizona Law is a racist and illegal law, i support the large scale immigration to the best democracy in the world United States, wasn't this country made up of illegal immigration from the start

what freaking hypocritical

Here it is if you people did not read it !

www.usconstitution.net...

found this Q

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[edit on 27-7-2010 by aspx]

reply to post by Hudson


talk to me with the The United States Constitution, nothing else outside the Constitution is valid

[edit on 27-7-2010 by aspx]

It seems that some posters are challenged logically. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out:

If a cop comes across a white, blue eyed person who speaks English, there is ZERO chance that the copper will try and figure out if he is a naturalized citizen or a tourist or just a normal American . But if a copper comes across a BROWN person who speaks Spanish, they will and have and do begin the inquisition.

There is NOTHING but appearance to go on. What OTHER factors could cop use? If someone ' looks' Mexican, then they are going to be targeted. It is happeneing already:

The ACLU is defending several AMERICANS who simply look foreign, meaning they are not lilly white, and who were already harrassed and violated by the cops.

The ONLY possible factors a cop can rely on are those that can apply to legal people as well, which means many people will get snatched off the streets and dumped into a cell to prove their innocence!!

This is the issue: we CANNOT trust mere cops to figure out what no person could be expected to know: Unless a cop is a qualified psychic how could they know if someone has papers or not? And since NO Americans are required to carry ID and present it ( unless driving), many people will get thrown in jail and have to prove later they are legal.

How would YOU like being arrested and thrown in a cell because you could not speak the language well? Or because you wear certain types of clothes?

This law is a nightmare of illegal profiling, and anyone that defends it must not comprehend how bad it is.

Please tell us HOW a cop on the street could decide is someone is illegal besides their appearance? if you cannot, then you must hate this law, as it requires illegal profiling. Probable cause CANNOT be assumed from the lack of language ability or manner of dress.

Other than that, cops have nop way to know, and so this law is horrible and must fall.

reply to post by richierich

If a cop comes across a white, blue eyed person who speaks English, there is ZERO chance that the copper will try and figure out if he is a naturalized citizen or a tourist or just a normal American . But if a copper comes across a BROWN person who speaks Spanish, they will and have and do begin the inquisition.

How many blue eye'd, white Mexican illegal immigrants have you seen?

I'll ask again, is there ANY circumstance where deporting a brown person ISN'T racist in your mind? You guys have these standards that don't even allow for our national laws to be enforced. Its like brown skin makes you above the law somehow.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by maria_stardust
reply to post by buddhasystem

Despite the problems with illegal immigration, trying to address the issue through racial profiling is extremely disturbing. If this law would be equally applied to everyone then it would be a non-issue. Since it will be selectively targeted toward a highly visible ethnic minority group based upon appearance "reasonable suspicion" it is oppressive in nature.

You are making things up that the law does Not say. No one is "selectively targeted" through racial profiling and according to what I read, this law IS applicable for everyone.

I challenge you to show me in this law where it says they will be racial profiling and selectively targeting people of a certain race or color. You cannot do it, it's Not in there.

You may personally fear that these things will happen, but you cannot say these things are written in this law.

Of COURSE it is not written in the law!! It is what is NOT said that is bad:

Since there are NO FACTORS other than color or national origin that a cop can use, it is a violation. No law is going to say' Go out and harrass people based on their color"...instead, they say: " Go out and decide who is illegal, and since the only things that might point to that are COLOR of skin and clothing and language ability, it amounts to the SAME THING.

The politicians are saying: " Go out and stop and check people who look illegal. The only way to tell is by papers, and since NO Americans must carry ID, it puts the burden of proof on the ACCUSED, and not the ACCUSER!! This turns the whole presumption of innocence upside down.

What is a legal resident does not have papers? No one is required to carry them if not driving, so the cop then has a choice: Arrest the poor slob and make him prove he is an American, or let him go. Most cops will arrest as they don't give a crap if we are inconvenienced or troubled or jailed...so this will be a nightmare.

It is ALREADY happening: Several regular Americans have been targeted because of not looking white, and arrested, later released after PROVING they were OK. We are NOT supposed to have to prove our innocence, and if a cop ever arrests a white person on mere suspicion of being illegal it has never made the news...it NEVER happens to whityes, ONLY to the brown or black person, mostly those who do not speak English well.

Give a cop power and it WILL be abused...cops cannot be trusted to do even simple things and matters like this must not be left to some beat cop to figure out...it is PROFILING all the way.

NO ONE has yet posted here a way OTHER than appearance that could possibly be used as an excuse to assume someone is illegal. HOW OTHER than appearance? Answer that. If you cannot, then admit this is bad all the way.

There is no reference to the color of ones skin nor nationalality in the bill.
Illegal aliens come in all colors and nationalitys, the fact is America borders mexico not china, africa or england. The fact is the largest number of illegals entering america seem to have brown skin and speak spanish.

Probable cause and reasonable suspicion laws have been on the books for several years and the courts have approved them.

If you break the law, crying racist doesn't justify you breaking the law.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Your kidding right?

I read the above and there is NO racists statements in it.

They speak of people who they have a reasonable suspicion of being an illegal or committing other crimes.
This is the same as any cop already does for suspects.

It does not mention brown skin, Mexicans. or even illegal Mexicans..

It could be white Irish people who they suspect are in the country illegally and this law would still apply.

Racists? No, I don't see that at all.

I know it doesn't mention them I know it mentions only illegal immigrants I am saying by WHAT PRINCIPLES ARE THE OFFICERS USING TO DECIDE IF AN IMMIGRANT IS ILLEGAL OTHER THAN APPEARANCE AS IT CLEARLY STATES THERE.

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
WHAT PRINCIPLES ARE THE OFFICERS USING TO DECIDE IF AN IMMIGRANT IS ILLEGAL OTHER THAN APPEARANCE AS IT CLEARLY STATES THERE.

Jesus H Christ on a stick these threads are getting ridiculous...

Bleeding heart liberals would just as soon hand this country over to Mexico and call anyone who tries to stop it a racist.

You want to know what LEO's will use to determine if the people they pull over fit the illegal MO? I'll tell you. Their EXPERIENCE! LOE's have been dealing with this for decades and have a pretty good idea of who is a legal citizen and who is not. You HAVE to carry an ID. Period. Get over it.

And yes, I approve of this bill and hope ALL 50 states adopt the same law! Of course, you will undoubtedly call me a racist...for believing in our Constitution.


And one more thing. The title of this thread says "Here you decide!" Well, it appears you don't want us to decide for ourselves as you implied but rather you want everyone to think as you do. Typical of people who support illegals...

[edit on 27-7-2010 by DerbyCityLights]

[edit on 27-7-2010 by DerbyCityLights]

If any person who is stopped by LEO ,and that person can not understand nor speak english and can not provide a legal ID, I really think that there is reasonable suspicion that person may be an illegal alien.
And it doesn't matter what color their skin is or what language they speak.

[edit on 27-7-2010 by OLD HIPPY DUDE]

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
If any person who is stopped by LEO ,and that person can not understand nor speak english and can not provide a legal ID, I really think that there is reasonable suspicion that person may be an illegal alien.
And it doesn't matter what color their skin is or what language they speak.

[edit on 27-7-2010 by OLD HIPPY DUDE]

The LAW does not demand that we all speak English, and the LAW does not say that we must carry proof our our identity. So PLEASE tell me WHAT legal grounds there are to believe someone is illegal merely because they do not speak English or carry papers?

You would no doubt want to deport all of the Italian immigrants that came here long ago...they never learned English, many of them, although their kids did...and they never carried papers around. You would lock up millions of legal immigrants, for no good reason, and that is a shame.

You are NOT required to speak English to be a citizen.

You are NOT required to carry papers proving your citizenship.

So basing a GUESS on being an illegal on whether or not someone has a command of the language sufficient to impress some cop is good enough for you? not ME!!

Cops MUST profile in order to ASSUME anything.

How come you Mexican haters never answer this: If cops are not basing their assumption on appearance of skin color and ability to speak a certain language, then what ARE they basing it on? Racists don't care if the cops profile, as long as they guess right....normal people do not want cops profiling, as it is always wrong and bad. Some choice.

No, it's not racist because, ahem
Mexican is not a race!

Same goes for Hispanic and Latino.

For many years we've been hearing that America would crumble if it weren't for the illegals.
Well now that Arizona is getting ready to put that to the test, the illegals and many Mexicans are crying foul.

Aye caramba.

'Displaced Person' is the phrase that we used to use.. now it is 'Illegal Alien'.... The Arizona law is simply a way to fund our privatized prison system...

Concerning the Arizona Govenor...

Two of her top advisers have close ties to Corrections Corporation of America (CCA). And CCA holds the federal contract for housing detainees in Arizona. CCA already receives 11 million a month in Arizona, and will make out like bandits if Arizona law passes...

current.com...

[edit on 27-7-2010 by jambatrumpet]

Originally posted by jambatrumpet
'Displaced Person' is the phrase that we used to use.. now it is 'Illegal Alien'.... The Arizona law is simply a way to fund our privatized prison system...

Concerning the Arizona Govenor...

Two of her top advisers have close ties to Corrections Corporation of America (CCA). And CCA holds the federal contract for housing detainees in Arizona. CCA already receives 11 million a month in Arizona, and will make out like bandits if Arizona law passes...

current.com...

[edit on 27-7-2010 by jambatrumpet]

Thats what I call thinking ahead. The almighty government isn't going to help! I applause Arizona for MAKING something happen and taking the extra steps in problem solving

Now after reading the law and many of the different posts and threads on this topic, there are many issues that are rarely addressed and when they are it is an embarassement to one group or another. This problem is far larger than anyone is willing to admit, and no one is going to be happy with the outcome of the judges decision. This is a lose lose situation for the federal government, if you read the law, it turns around and used the federal laws of the United States of America, as part of the wording and even cites the statue for which each portion of the AZ law as it is applied. If this law is struck down, it could be argued in a court of law, that the federal laws on immigration and dealing with illegale immigration are equally racist, as it can not be 2 seperate laws that govern the land. Immigrants and visitors who are in the country are required by law to have some form of identification. If a legal immigrant does not have their green card, they can be held in a dention center until their status is verified, that is the federal statute.
The Arizona Law is one that simply adds a new dimension to what the law enforcement is doing already, enforcing the laws of the country, as many states are using more and more of the federal laws as a basis to write and have laws and regulations that are similar in nature, here too often quoting and using the actual statute, including the statue number so those who are so inclined can go and look up.
This problem of illegale immigration has been going on for a long time, actually going back to the days of World War II, and neither party or member of the federal government since the end of World War II has done anything to stop the flow. Most of the time the laws are ignored, unless it is a crime that would shock the nation and or state. The reality is the government does not care about the migrant farm workers or those who would be used as cheap labor, however, in their lack of action, they set up a means of indentured servitude and or slavery, where those who are doing the work, are not paided a fair wage, as compared to those who are here legally.
The other horrid truth about the illegale immigration issue, is that it is through Mexico that the border is where many of the illegale immigrants will come through, along with the lack of oversite when it comes to those who are ordered to leave and then just disappear. Another verifiable aspect and what is reported by the federal government is that the majority of illegale immigrants are hispanic in origin, coming from latin and south america. When you combine that along with the President of Mexico, attempting to influence the politics of this country, and his own government that actively shows and gives its citizens ways to subvert the laws of the US, then it would cause some to be upset.
Do I believe this law is racist, no, as there would be the same result no matter who you are in the state, if you were pulled over or stopped by the police, and asked for identification, and had none, which would be that you would be detained until your idenity is determined, and if you have any outstanding warrents.
Does it have the potential to be abused and misused by the law enforcemnt, yes, and that is with any law out there that the police are enforcing, there is always the point and use for that.

Originally posted by jambatrumpet
'Displaced Person' is the phrase that we used to use.. now it is 'Illegal Alien'.... The Arizona law is simply a way to fund our privatized prison system...

Concerning the Arizona Govenor...

Two of her top advisers have close ties to Corrections Corporation of America (CCA). And CCA holds the federal contract for housing detainees in Arizona. CCA already receives 11 million a month in Arizona, and will make out like bandits if Arizona law passes...

current.com...

[edit on 27-7-2010 by jambatrumpet]

As Paul Harvey would say.... and now, the rest of the story

if you follow the link, it goes on to say...

“CCA, unequivocally, did not at any time lobby - nor did we have any outside consultants lobby - anyone in Arizona on the immigration law. Nor are we proposing to house detainee immigrants as a result of SB 1070. We currently have no contracts with the State or any counties. CCA very proudly does have a presence in Arizona, as we own and operate 6 correctional facilities, employing more than 2,500 Arizona residents. These contracts are with other state and federal jurisdictions.”


Statement from Governor Brewers office:
“Paul Senseman does not advise the governor on these issues…”


_____________________________

I did find a video however that might give some members on here a good laugh.

Political Punch
McCain Invites Obama to Visit Border

blogs.abcnews.com...

These are two of my least favorite men however I am glad to hear Obama was invited AGAIN to visit Arizona.






edit to add: sdcigarpig, thank you for sharing, it is a great read

[edit on 28-7-2010 by sweetliberty]

[edit on 28-7-2010 by sweetliberty]

reply to post by sdcigarpig


You don't get it. The Arizona law MUST be abused in order to follow it!! in order to follow the new law, cops MUST profile based only on APPEARANCE, and that is called PROFILING.

So far, NOT ONE poster who supports this law has been able to answer this question:

If the cops are not basing their GUESS about someones status on they way they look or their ability to speak English, what the hell ARE they basing it on?

If a cop pulls over a guy who looks hispanic, they will assume he is illegal unless he can prove his innocence. If the guy does not have enough proof to satisfy the cop, then he goes into a cage like an animal until he can prove he is not an illegal. This means we are having to prove innocence, and that is the exact opposite of what the law demands.

How can a cop know who is legal and who is not? He cannot...he must guess...and hope he is right.

Here are a few cases of how this is being used to harrass and violate rights already....it is happening right now!!

www.aclu.org...

Read the link above and see that already cops are grabbing innocent people and just assuming, with NO proof, that they are illegal....all because they are not lilly white.

this will get insane as cops go nuts grabbing anyone without a stack of papers and throwing them in cages...to let someone else figure out later....meanwhile the victims suffer.

This law will and must be thrown out....and law that gives cops even more power is always bad.

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
If any person who is stopped by LEO ,and that person can not understand nor speak english and can not provide a legal ID, I really think that there is reasonable suspicion that person may be an illegal alien.
And it doesn't matter what color their skin is or what language they speak.

What if they speak Hawaiian?

A federal judge has blocked the most controversial portions of the Arizona law earlier today.

The opponents argued the law will lead to racial profiling, conflict with federal immigration law and distract local police from fighting more serious crimes. The U.S. Justice Department, civil rights groups and a Phoenix police officer had asked the judge for an injunction to prevent the law from being enforced.

"There is a substantial likelihood that officers will wrongfully arrest legal resident aliens under the new (law)," Bolton ruled. "By enforcing this statute, Arizona would impose a 'distinct, unusual and extraordinary' burden on legal resident aliens that only the federal government has the authority to impose."

source

reply to post by maria_stardust


I for one am glad that the racist parts have not been passed.

This is equally ridiculous right here.....

Tom:Hey Bob, go find a duck
Bob: Whats a duck?
Tom: Just find one!
Bob: ok
Later Bob brings back a frog.