Who else sees the religion/atheism debate as a non-issue?

Originally posted by butcherguy
Some people will tell you they know what is on the other side, BUT THEY DON'T KNOW.

Had to quote myself.

What kind of Christian makes this statement?

You misunderstand "atheism" : atheism is not a religion.

Atheism is also agnosticism : secure.wikimedia.org...

Atheism is also SCIENCE, FACT, AND THE SEARCH FOR THE TRUTHS

So what is the problem with religion ... lol ... illusions, lies, ideologies ... big (br)other

If you'd like to understand : atheism appear when people are well educated, the openess is more likely to be build in this situation ...

So is religion better ? ... there is one point here : to keep : "values and identities that should not be corrupted."

+ imagine , john lennon

reply to post by pr3l33t
Just wondered if you read the whole post or if you got excited when someone wrote the word, Christian.

The Christian has to believe that there is a god in order to have an afterlife. The atheist refuses to believe because of logic.

The above quote is mine. Note that I say that the Christian HAS to believe. Just has to.

The Atheist refuses to believe, because of LOGIC.

May I ask HOW you JUMPED to the conclusion that I am a Christian?

reply to post by silent thunder


Let me see if I understand this right, you think the debate between religion vs atheism is pointless or a waste of time? But you got to make a thread about a pointless topic, doesn't that make your thread even MORE pointless?

It would seem you lean to the more religious side of things, so my guess is you're rallying the religious to come to your side in anticipation of the Atheists rushing to argue with you.

But I will bite and try to get your point.

Yes it is a HUGE debate to be having. Nothing is more important than an understanding of your reality. If it could be proved that there was a god or there wasn't one, it would change evrything all over the world. Obviously one side wants to claim that victory over the other. I dunno about you but I would really like to see some evidence one way or the other. Debating and comparing notes is one way to learn and expand your knowledge base.

As scientific knowledge increases, religious fervor decreases, because " Hey God doesn't make rainbowws, water and sunlight do! I wonder what else is not what I was told?" However this is not the purpose of science, to discredit or refute religious concpets, it's simply trying to understand what is unknown.

So yes, religious inquiry and scientific inquiry are not on the same track, they have different goals and motivations. But in my view, science holds much more water, because scientific theories and discoveries can be shown, proven, and demonstrated right before my eyes. Whereas religion asks you to take it on faith. Well sorry, religion has fumbled the ball way too many times for me to take it seriously. Setting religion aside for a moment, God as a unnamed or an unidentified entity is irrelevant, totally unneccessary for the universe to keep doin it's thing.

But that's just me.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by Gigatronix]

I do. It's a futile argument that really doesn't matter in the end.

It's like the steering wheel being biased against the tires. Does it really matter? They're both part of the same car.

Same with the Republican v Democrat argument.

Of course it is important, we both have different visions of what our civilization should aspire to. Many religious folks who are so called 'moderates' still influence many aspects of society with their dogma. Let's not even go to the evangelical extreme, their influence can be seen from space. But to say it is a non issue when both parties involved have such diametrically opposed views that go to the core of humanity is a bit naive imo. I have no problem with people having 'personal' beliefs, i may think they are backwards, irrational and have no place in a modern society but i would never force them to change those beliefs, debate yes but force? no. One way or another, before we see the next century this situation will have to have been resolved, if not we can add ourselves to the 99.999% of species that have already gone extinct on planet earth...so no, i don't see it as a non-issue...i see it as one of the most important issues facing our generation, we are going to be facing a lot of tough decisions in the coming decades. The mindset of a society is crucial in determining how those decisions form....right now, im crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. Don't have much hope basically...

Sorry it does matter.

Religion must be self perpetuating, the only way it can achieve this is:

• Grab people while they are young and shaping their ideas of the world (how many people come to religion in their adult life rather than their childhood? – much much less). Again why don't any faiths teach the religion yo people from say the age of 11?

• They must create an exclusive group, there must be something in common for a person to join a religion. Most religions do this well – create an extended family where they help each other out but it does create exclusivity. Exclusivity is the first step to tyranny.

reply to post by templar knight


Sounds like you are describing ATS -- is this stuff a religion?

Where I have a big problem with all of this is the lack of integration. Its like living pure yin or pure yang, pure logic or pure imagination...

Someone throws a contradicting viewpoint and you plug your ears and go "la la la i cant hear you, i'm right".

My sister has 2 kids and I watch how they're raised and I wonder if all this debating has anything to do with early childhood development when your parents and peers celebrate when you got the right shape and colour right to make you feel proud and encourage you to learn.


See I don't like this idea of faith, and religion, I like to explore the concepts presented and I take it as symbolism and clues to EXPERIMENT with.

I'll say the same thing until i'm dead and that is if I've made up my mind about anything and i become stuck in my ways, then i'm just that, STUCK. Should the day come where I'm suddenly "right"..may my mind shut off forever because it seems to me its very nature is to analyze and second guess itself.

My "spirituality", goes through the same "scientific process" explained here:
www.sciencebuddies.org...



....
If possible I try and hold NO set beliefs but until then I go on what i've tested and use it until it changes. I just do my best.

Spiritual process for me.. something spiritual happens like seeing the future and watching it happen. Thus begins my investigation, I research, I read into what different philosopies opinion was, then I looked into the possible science behind it. I started looking into electromagnetism, acupuncture / chinese medicine and combined with meditation EXPERIMENTS.. understanding a possible mind/body relationship. I've watched videos by doctors with radical view points, looked into experiments on the possibilities of consciousness.. I've basically looked into a whole bunch of stuff, and guess what... i still leave it an open subject, thats how I learn more.. I allow a different perspective to challenge it.

End of the experiment, i draw my conclusions and posibilities, which usually results in me posting it on here or something (report results).. and then I go back to exploring it again from different angles.

Increased awareness = new observations = putting them to test = trying to understand the mechanism and sensations / indicators = trying to recreate the incident = try and improve if you think you're on to something = at some point I can't simply ingore it as nothing, but still... I leave my mind OPEN...

I don't get this leaning to one direction of thought or another crap, but I respect everyones opinion. Do I think its constructive to discuss this? Yes.. Without an open mind? ...well.... I say just try to convince yourself and if someone doesn't believe you don't force it.. but if you feel this point may somehow better humanity.. start compiling more ideas, explain your methods better etc..

If i wasn't open to my ideas being challenged, then who's to say i'm really searching for wisdom, enlightenment, the truth. I leave myself open to criticism and welcome it. So debate? Sure... Argue = no.. Collaboration = YES.

I am an atheist. I do not believe in god. Even if god appeared to me and I HAD to believe in it I would never, ever, worship it (yes, 'it' a supernatural creature therefore not given the title 'he/she/him' in English grammar). Why would I worship a creature that allows earthquakes/tsunamis/malaria/aids/ and so many more so called natural disasters to kill millions of innocent men women and children every year? I would pull down my pants and wave my backside at it and cry 'hey god, this is what I think of you!'
I challenge any of the so called 'believers' (from any religion) to explain why they worship a creature which allows so much pain, suffering and heartache to occur on our planet. And I don't include man-made disasters like wars, I am talking about so called natural disasters. How many 'believers' went to their building of worship a few years ago and thanked their god for the tsunami that devastated south east Asia?
It makes me sick!



ply to post by silent thunder

yes, of course, christians are obsessed with thinking evolution is evil, and atheists get caught up trying to disprove something they don't believe exists. Any rational person would conclude that both sides are a little right, there is reason to believe there must be a natural will and also evidence that things change or evolve over time.

reply to post by Faiol

there is nothing anyone can say to disprove that

Nor anything you can say to prove it.

Originally posted by templar knight
• Grab people while they are young and shaping their ideas of the world (how many people come to religion in their adult life rather than their childhood? – much much less). Again why don't any faiths teach the religion yo people from say the age of 11?

So your suggestion would be for parents to leave the kids at home by themselves while they go to church? In this day and age, going to church is one of the few activities some families do at all together.

Yes, children are impressionable at an early age, but at that stage, I'd rather have mine learning that it's important to be good to one another, that Jesus loves them, and that God can comfort them in times of grief, than learning "every man for himself", "buy, buy, buy" and "if you're looking for something to worship, here's American Idol."

At the core, though, why are you telling me how to raise my children?

AHHH!!
Unfortunately, this will descend into an argument between the two because it will be hijacked and I am sure that wasn't your intent...

I agree with you, as one group will not be able to convince the other over an Internet forum of their beliefs... there is no way that will happen. No face time, no eye contact, no way to hear the other's voice and conviction of their beliefs (or lack thereof), wayyy too easy to take typed statements out of context, way too easy to insult each other when you aren't face to face (internet courage)...

I am a deeply devout Roman Catholic. I pray daily, I go to daily Mass. I go to daily Eucharistic Adoration. I read the Bible daily. I pray my rosary daily. Do I think I am better than anyone else in the world? Heck, no, far from it. I admire everyone as they make their ways through the day alongside everyone else.

I pray for everyone. I just hope that I make it through life relatively peacefully with my family and without too much of satan's interference, with Christ at my side. I am fearful of the people in positions of world power, as I think they are deeply in the influence of forces that are not necessarily good, or in the best interest of the people in the world.

The Christians of this world need to return to a truly prayerful life and stop judging everyone. Period. Remember the Commandments we were given in the Bible. Live the Commandments. Jesus Christ also gave us two, love thy neighbor as thyself, and Do Not Judge.

At any rate, that's my take. Pray, pray, pray.

Quite an insulting thread this. I'm an atheist but I'm not an extremist. Live and let live don't force your belief on others. That also means you folks supposedly in the middle. The agnostics.

the religion\atheism debate is stupid... both sides make themselves as different from the other side as possible.. just to annoy.
And the "we know everything" of atheists and the fatalist-closemindedness of the religious guys.... Open-mindess is waay better then both of those things

I'm a supporter of longevity research and was thinking religion was the big stumbling block against it. Basically, the idea that planning for the after life was stopping them from planning for the present life. So, I used to see religion as huge issue, but then I realize most people behave the same way with or without their religion most of the time, and therefore it makes little difference. If people want to support longevity research... they'll do it regardless of whether they are a Christian or not. Its not religion to blame, its a general philosophy people have not to "mess with nature" that they would have regardless of whether they were a Christian. The main obstacle in longevity research isn't really religion, but just risk-return.

Religion doesn't cause wars any more than guns cause wars. People cause wars and if they are not using one tool to start war then they'll just switch to other equally effective ones.

Rule BY secrecy is the biggest, or most poweful, (de facto) religion among ALL the various factions of the collective "mainstream" or rank-and-file (which includes very many, or apparently most, of those who flatly don't consider themselves rank-and-file) - meaning, in this case, the religious and atheists alike. Neither side will tolerate anything that might, even possibly, blow down their house of cards (built on a foundation of styrofoam) beliefs. Both sides believe the existence of monstrosities like the National "Security" STATE and Black Budget are normal enough, as psychotic as that is to any reasonably civilized and evolved species.

Religion is as religion does, regardless of mere words or beliefs.

THIS IS IMPORTANT. I have pondered this issue myself. Sometimes I get a feeling that the poster is trying to get to the answer I am about to provide.
This would blow your mind, like it or not.


Just saw a scientist on TV talking about how there was practically no God. I also recalled many fanatic religious people do and say crazy stuff in the name of God.

The truth is; the joke is on us because God exists in any way you look at it.

One example the scientist used was to describe a fractal equation that is governed by chaos and order.

Yet the scientist failed to take into account the writer of the equation.

My argument is that, no matter how you look at it, GOD IS THE REASON FOR ALL THAT IS. It is that simple. The problem is that people tend to try to make God a human like God. While God is human like, so is God even more, NOT.

Man is only one creation (oops, evolution) of God. From the entire earth, time, universe to the squirrel that invaded my flat the other day.

Religious people tend to ascribe super human like attributes to God and gods. Non religious people ascribe to God, an impersonal universe that does not need a creator.
As you can see, both sides are describing the same thing or entity(both sides are right and wrong) even if it is from different perspectives.

There was a new documentary that was voiced by Morgan Freeman called 'Through The Wormhole'.
This documentary appears to confirm this idea of God, even if it did not make the leap to describing what ever was responsible for our existence, as God.

Next time I will bind this with why prayers work even in non religious manner.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Faiol

 

there is nothing anyone can say to disprove that

Nor anything you can say to prove it.

are you completely nuts?

I said if you support some religion, it means you picked the easy way out

I didnt say the religion CANT be true, I said it was an easy way out, and no one can deny that joining a religion is easier than trying to figure it out by yourself, by study, by experiences and by sharing information with others

people just want to live by accepting a hoax or a theory, instead of studying and sharing information to improve their knowledge and awareness