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Afghanistan war logs: Massive leak of secret files exposes truth of occupation

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posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


If we are going to stop at "Who knows?" and making wild speculations about the number of people (somewhere between 1-100) why not also speculate that had Assange NOT released this data Godzilla would have risen up out of the ocean and stomped the Pentagon? Who knows? Right?

Now we will never know. Damn that Assange.




posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


I do not see how it is the individual/s who leaked these papers responsibility to weigh how or whether the homcidal maniacs at the Pentagon and in Washington D.C. will try and sell an attack on Iran using the information from the leaks, which they of course already would have had access to anyway!

It is the U.S. public's responsibility as a whole to stand up against this kind of action.

[edit on 29-7-2010 by Peruvianmonk]



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65
All I'm thinking that one Afghan or US troop getting killed because someone leaked info is wrong. Some people just don't see it that way.


I'm thinking that this argument is just about grown tired for me. Do I agree with the death of a single human being due to leaked information?

No. Not in the slightest.

Do I agree with a war that was more than likely started due to machinations of people who wanted to get richer and see their proprietary technologies used effectively so that they can continue constructing tech that the U.S. populace knows next to nothing about and which has killed more people than this leak?

No. Even more than I disagree with a leak.

Point of fact, mismanagement has resulted in collateral damage of civilians and soldiers alike who do not have an inkling of what they are fighting for; only what they are told they are fighting for.

Mismanagement has resulted in a dehumanization of an entire region of people...resulting in deaths all over the place.

And finally...the war all over the Middle East has been proven to have resulted in death...of which the American populace is far too compliant with because they would rather watch American Idol than entertain the notion that a Billionaire wanted to play war games...this leak has yet to result in any death whatsoever.

Harp on ideologies all you want, but truth be told, you started playing that game a bit too late.

Edit for spelling.

[edit on Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:15:04 -0500 by MemoryShock]



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:17 PM
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I suggest people start going through this data for themselves and stop making wildly emotive suggestions of treason or blood on Assange's hands. All of which is far from the truth.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by LarryLove
 


I second that, but good luck with that.

Reading is hard. Thinking is hard. Why bother to look for facts that might, just might, shake your precious existing beliefs? Especially when it is so easy to find a channel where they will twist the evidence like a pretzel to support your existing belief system.

Its so much more comfortable when you dont let reality impinge upon your beliefs.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
I do not see how it is the individual/s who leaked these papers responsibility to weigh how or whether the homcidal maniacs at the Pentagon and in Washington D.C. will try and sell an attack on Iran using the information from the leaks, which they of course already would have had access to anyway!


So there's no such thing as personal responsibility. Gotcha. Whoever leaked all this info is in the clear, and anyone that's harmed due to the leak isn't his fault at all. In fact, it's the fault of the "homicidal maniacs" in the Pentagon; never the Taliban or insurgents.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by MemoryShock
And finally...the war all over the Middle East has been proven to have resulted in death...of which the American populace is far too compliant with because they would rather watch American Idol than entertain the notion that a Billionaire wanted to play war games...this leak has yet to result in any death whatsoever.


Has yet. Your words. Just give it time, I'm certain someone will be getting the short end of the stick over the leaks.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:43 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 



No, how about personal responsibility INCLUDING our leaders and Pentagon? How about we ALL be accountable and responsible?

Secrecy in government and democracy do not go hand in hand. People need information in order to be able to exercise their right to vote for leaders who represent their interests, and who behave the way we want them to.

We are not even allowed to see the dead in the war we are paying for. Our government has effectively blocked images of dead children and civilians from reaching us via the news so that we dont get upset and question the human cost of their war. How is that national security?

The fascists have taken National Security as an argument for secrecy too far. And thats not Assanges fault. Its theirs, and ours, for letting them. We are being kept in the dark far, far beyond legitimate claims to security. We are well into the realm of "you people dont matter and dont deserve to know" territory, and it is up to us to remind them that we do matter. We collectively ARE America. Not them.

[edit on 29-7-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Reading is hard. Thinking is hard. Why bother to look for facts that might, just might, shake your precious existing beliefs? Especially when it is so easy to find a channel where they will twist the evidence like a pretzel to support your existing belief system.


And you don't think that Wikileaks hasn't twisted the evidence?

Did anyone ever think that the reason why it's taken so long for this to come to light is that Wikileaks was twisting the information; deleting anything that might be good news, and exaggerating anything that's bad???



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:46 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


Your actually buying all that bullcrap, that people will be harmed as a result of this leak?

Of course there is personal responsibilty. To expose corruption, war crimes, injustice as Wikileaks has using their sources, i salute them all.

The Homicidal maniacs in the Pentagon will be the ones who see that people of all sides are harmed, as will the Taliban.

[edit on 29-7-2010 by Peruvianmonk]



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
No, how about personal responsibility INCLUDING our leaders and Pentagon? How about we ALL be accountable and responsible?


Hey, I'm all for that.


Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Secrecy in government and democracy do not go hand in hand. People need information in order to be able to exercise their right to vote for leaders who represent their interests, and who behave the way we want them to.


Secrecy in wartime is needed, or you get to fill coffins with your own troops.


Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
We are not even allowed to see the dead in the war we are paying for. Our government has effectively blocked images of dead children and civilians from reaching us via the news so that we dont get upset and question the human cost of their war. How is that national security?


You know why you don't get to see US war dead? Because the military really has a problem with their casualites being used for any sort of political gain. Think if it was your son or daughter, and the local antiwar protestors formed up where they were taking him/her off the plane and started to say that he/she was a tool of the government and got what he/she deserved.


Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
The fascists have taken National Security as an argument for secrecy too far. And thats not Assanges fault. Its theirs, and ours, for letting them. We are being kept in the dark far, far beyond legitimate claims to security. We are well into the realm of "you people dont matter and dont deserve to know" territory, and it is up to us to remind them that we do matter. We collectively ARE America. Not them.


See my reply above about secrecy in wartime.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


If I could applaud you I would, for no other reason than your post says one very vital thing. The dead have been shielded from us. The truth about this war has been unveiled and for once we have an opportunity to discern fact from fiction.

I encourage everyone posting here to go through the data before casting judgment on Assange or the decision to release the material. If you do, your doors of perception may very well change.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Your actually buying all that bullcrap, that people will be harmed as a result of this leak?


You're actually buying all that bullcrap that people won't be harmed as a result of this leak?


Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Of course there is personal responsibilty. To expose corruption, war crimes, injustice as Wikileaks has using their sources, i salute them all.


Gonna say the same thing when some US troops come home dead as a result of the leaks?



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by LarryLove
The dead have been shielded from us.


You wanna see the dead?

Do what I have done: Go into combat. You'll see all the dead you ever want, and more.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


No. The military has a problem with us seeing the true horror of an unjust war because it will further public opinion toward a troop withdraw. Embedded journalism or controlled reports were a Pentagon idea to ensure we only got one side of the story. A filtered side and one that would never cast the war machine in a bad light.

For nearly ten years journalism has suffered and as such we have been denied the truth.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by LarryLove
The dead have been shielded from us.


You wanna see the dead?

Do what I have done: Go into combat. You'll see all the dead you ever want, and more.


When embedded photojournalists are thrown out for documenting dead American soldiers in the aftermath of a suicide attack, then I question the system. This is part of the story and it should be documented. War has two sides and both die. War is being waged in our names and we should all see the results.

Edit to say: No dead soldiers are coming back as a result of this leak. Yes, that is a grand statement, but have you read this data?

Second edit: I will go to the front line with a camera and no military media restrictions.

[edit on 29-7-2010 by LarryLove]

[edit on 29-7-2010 by LarryLove]



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by LarryLove
When embedded photojournalists are thrown out for documenting dead American soldiers in the aftermath of a suicide attack, then I question the system. This is part of the story and it should be documented. War has two sides and both die. War is being waged in our names and we should all see the results.


I classify that all as "war porn". People just love to see dead bodies, and bodies blasted into pieces by an IED are just too good to pass up. Especially if it's dead US troops.

Sorry, you're not going to get your fix, no matter in what high, exaulted terms you put it in.


Originally posted by LarryLove
Edit to say: No dead soldiers are coming back as a result of this leak. Yes, that is a grand statement, but have you read this data?


Willing to bet your life on that? Or the life on someone you know? Tactics, techniques and procedures were revealled in those leaks. That means the enemy will know how US troops act during an engagement.


Originally posted by LarryLove
Second edit: I will go to the front line with a camera and no military media restrictions.


Well, that ain't gonna be happening in the near future.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


I always agree to differ with people and I guess this is going to be the case with yourself. We come from different mindsets that will never agree, so a post war is not on the cards. My opinion is as valid as yours, but I know we could go round in circles and that isn't the point.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by LarryLove
I always agree to differ with people and I guess this is going to be the case with yourself. We come from different mindsets that will never agree, so a post war is not on the cards. My opinion is as valid as yours, but I know we could go round in circles and that isn't the point.


Agree to disagree.
Sounds like a deal to me.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

And you don't think that Wikileaks hasn't twisted the evidence?

Did anyone ever think that the reason why it's taken so long for this to come to light is that Wikileaks was twisting the information; deleting anything that might be good news, and exaggerating anything that's bad???


No. I dont think they are "twisting the evidence." I think it takes time for a volunteer organization to sort through nearly 100,00 leaked documents, (this latest released batch alone, not to mention others they have) and I think they are trying to redact information that COULD get people killed, as they have stated, in documents that are more recent.

I think they are being as responsible as they can, considering their mission.

Were you equally distraught when Cheney was outing a political enemies wife and endangering her life?

Are you equally distraught at those who started a war with a country who didnt attack us? Costing us 4413 US soldiers to date?

Thats the part I always find interesting, how many of the people worried Wikileaks will cost soldiers their lives, when the war itself is exacting an enormous human cost. Needlessly. If it werent for their lies and deceptions and secret maneuvering we wouldnt even be at war over there.

And yet you want to argue that allowing secrecy and lies to be fed to the American public is the way to save lives.



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