Migrants sell up and flee Arizona ahead of crackdown

reply to post by Xcathdra


The 4th Amendment protects you from unwarranted searches and seizures. But that protection has just been erased for people in Arizona.

Now thanks to this law, if the police suspect that you are illegal, you are presumed guilty of being illegal till you prove that you are innocent. They can demand your papers without provocation (don't think for a moment they won't just make up a reason latter).

Originally posted by airspoon
reply to post by whatukno

 

How is this about race? This isn't about race,it's about people entering our country illegally, irregardless of what color you are. There are plenty of blonde hair and blue eyed Mexicans, just as there could be some white illegal immigrants from Europe.

I believe that the people using the race card on this issue are the racist ones.

--airspoon

Thank you, we'll said ....only a raciest would bring up the race card, This is and always has been about illegal crossing of our borders, not race ...We as a country have a process for becoming a legal citizen and if you chose to ignore this process and enter "our" country anyhow them that is a crime and that makes them criminal and as such you should be arrested and punished ..... That being said i feel bad for our "Southern Cousins" . As bad as they have it in their country becoming a "criminal by choice in our country does not make it better..

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

The 4th Amendment protects you from unwarranted searches and seizures. But that protection has just been erased for people in Arizona.

Now thanks to this law, if the police suspect that you are illegal, you are presumed guilty of being illegal till you prove that you are innocent. They can demand your papers without provocation (don't think for a moment they won't just make up a reason latter).

You are innocent until proven guilty in this country. Saying otherwise doesnt make it so. If you are charged with being an illegal alien, its up to the Government to prove you are here illegaly. If you arent then you have nothing to worry about.

The 4th amendmenthas been taken away? How? I am curious how you come to this conclusion.

If the Police suspect that someon is illegal?? Hmm.. ok.. You do understand that Law Enforcement at ALL levels during investigations of EVERY kind they will suspect a person of commiting the crime. People seem to forget that Law Enforcement does not fall under the Judicial branch.. It falls under the executive branch. Our purpose is to protect society, not the individual, and to enforce the laws. It is up to the Judicial branch to decide if they will charge and seek punishment from those who are accused of breaking the law. We have to submit detailed reports (all legal affidavits) that the information we present is the truth. Investigating someone for jaywalking is no different than investigating someone from being here illegally, is not different than investigating someone for murder.. The process is exactly the same.

Asking people for a passport / Green card is absolutely no different than asking any person that is pulled over for a traffic violation for their drivers license.

Driving in this country, just like visiting if you are from another country, is a privelage, and not a guaranteed right. If you dont like the idea of having to get a drivers license, then dont drive a car.

Are we discriminating against people who drive vehicles because we demand a drivers license as proof they can legally drive a car?

And I am a bit tired of you invoking that all Law Enforcement is crooked and will make up any reason to justify their actions. I have been doing Law Enforcement for 10 years and not once have I ever made up a reason for my actions.

If you have a specific incident with a specific department and officer, then state as much, and quit insulting the rest of us with blanket statements.

Thanks you

[edit on 26-7-2010 by Xcathdra]

[edit on 26-7-2010 by Xcathdra]

[edit on 26-7-2010 by Xcathdra]

Originally posted by whatukno
The 4th Amendment protects you from unwarranted searches and seizures. But that protection has just been erased for people in Arizona.

Show me in 1070 where it says that the 4th Amendment has been "erased".

Originally posted by whatukno
Now thanks to this law, if the police suspect that you are illegal, you are presumed guilty of being illegal till you prove that you are innocent.

It doesn't say that at all. That's imaginary. If there's suspicion you've committed a crime then there is a reason to check the validity of someone's origin. How is that really any different than what's already in place? It isn't.

Originally posted by whatukno
They can demand your papers without provocation (don't think for a moment they won't just make up a reason latter).

Again, presumptive and imaginary. Besides, Police don't do this for any number of reasons already, regardless of race or origin? What's changed here? All they've done is put on paper a reason to give you a personal rash. If people's rights are going to be infringed by this process, they are WELCOME to employ an attorney and show just how their rights have been so brutally violated. That's what's great about this country. Don't think that there won't be a ton of eligible lawyers ready to jump on the first case like a chola on a sharpie.

reply to post by abearzz

Thank you, we'll said ....only a raciest would bring up the race card, This is and always has been about illegal crossing of our borders, not race ...We as a country have a process for becoming a legal citizen and if you chose to ignore this process and enter "our" country anyhow them that is a crime and that makes them criminal and as such you should be arrested and punished ..... That being said i feel bad for our "Southern Cousins" . As bad as they have it in their country becoming a "criminal by choice in our country does not make it better..

Probably didn't read the post he was incorrectly replying to did you? Let me post it here again for your benefit.

Probably worried about the genocidal Neo-Nazis that just had their dream come true. Their fascist agenda of a white America was passed in Arizona.

I wonder why the hell I would say such a thing? Hmm. Maybe, just maybe, because The Pioneer Foundation and FAIR were the lobby groups behind this bill.

And the two people that wrote the bill are white supremacists.

But you know what y'all enjoy your police state, enjoy having your civil liberties violated. But just remember what Jefferson said...

"The man who would choose security over freedom deserves neither."


[edit on 7/26/2010 by whatukno]

reply to post by endisnighe


To answer the first part of the questions ANYTIME they want to, and again they can ask for your ID whenever they want to. I've been ID'd just walking down the street a dozen times or so. It may be unlawful but many cops feel above the law and act accordingly.

reply to post by whatukno


Just the ones who may be caught breaking laws. I dont understand what the trouble is here with this bill. It doesnt anywhere say to look for illegal Mexicans and single them out amongst your daily duties. It says if you encounter one do the lazy federal governments job for them and make sure that person is filed and deported. It doesnt say harrass everyone who isnt white. Morons are just looking for an excuse to complain. The law covers all illegal immigrants not just the (racism always convenient for the democrats) darker skinned people like rejects are making it out to be. I find it most entertaining that millions of stupid people were duped into thinking protecting our borders from drugs, violent gangs, criminals and thugs is racism.

reply to post by FrancoUn-American

I find it most entertaining that millions of stupid people were duped into thinking protecting our borders from drugs, violent gangs, criminals and thugs is racism.

And I find people who are too lazy to read the whole conversation irritating and annoying.

I guess you missed the SEVERAL FREAKING TIMES I HAVE SAID THAT I WANT THE DAMN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAWS! Is that so damn hard to understand? Really? Is it so unfathomable for someone to be against a law that was pushed through by white supremacist groups, but support the federal law?

I DO WANT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ENFORCE THE EXISTING FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW! How many times to I have to write it before it sinks into those thick brainless skulls out there?

What I am completely and totally against is the eradication of the protections provided under the 4th Amendment thanks to this law. Is that so freaking hard to understand? Now cops can make up whatever excuse they want to justify violating the 4th Amendment. Just to go after what really is a political problem.

Originally posted by EnkiCarbone
Show me in 1070 where it says that the 4th Amendment has been "erased".

Under the law, a police officer can lawfully approach you and ask for your papers whether it be you drivers licence or your birth certificate. What is it meant by the term 'lawfully'? The term is loose. The term 'lawful' can range from a police officer looking into your details after you have been caught in doing a crime to a police office merely approaching you because you look 'lost' or 'sick'. Whats stop a police office coming into your house under 'lawful' purposes as they can freely claim now and demand you show your papers? Whats to stop a police officer from arresting you based on the claim your drivers licence is not enough?

One of the most interesting excuses for the law is based on this notion that it now allows police officers to look up the details of individuals caught in a crime. The fact is police officers always had this ability to look up and do backround checks after they have caught somebody in the act. So this law is not merely about giving police officers that ability under such circumstances.

As for this claim the law forbids racial discrimmination? Based on what? Police officers can now freely pick, choose and approach individuals without any real reason, they can do so for racial reasons and they get away with it through making any excuse regarding their 'lawful contact'.

It doesn't say that at all. That's imaginary. If there's suspicion you've committed a crime then

If there has been 'suspicion' you have committed a crime? And where is this fine line between 'suspicion' and evidence? Its rather clear within our constitution, proven until guilty, you have your rights until you are proven guilty. Suspicion amounts to little to nothing.

Keep up the excuses.

Originally posted by whatukno


SEVERAL FREAKING TIMES I HAVE SAID THAT I WANT THE DAMN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAWS!

I DO WANT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ENFORCE THE EXISTING FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW!

Well if your federal Government isnt doing anything about illegal immigration why shouldnt the states tackle this issue?

reply to post by Fett Pinkus


Because it's not in the state's legal purview.

They cannot according to the constitution make up their own immigration laws that are not uniform with the Federal law. This law in particular as I have shown previously is not uniform to the Federal law.

Because it is not uniform, it is unconstitutional, and should be struck down.

reply to post by FrancoUn-American


Since wuk did not want to answer the question I will go over what several LEO's have gone over on another thread.

A LEO can ask you anything they want, at anytime.

You have the right at anytime to ask if you are being detained. If they say no, you can tell them you do not wish to speak to them.

Now, they can talk to you all they want, does not mean you have to respond.

As for let us say they say you are being detained. You may ask what for. If they do not give a valid reason, you may refuse to speak with them. That is your right, period.

But, remember that if they have a valid reason to speak with you, like say a person in the area has committed a crime and you fit the description, this is a valid reason for them to ask you for id.

Heck, I have been asked for id before and knew that they had a valid reason yet I did not have an id with me. They ran my info and all was good. I have also been asked for id because I was open carrying and I told the officer the exact same thing. Am I being detained? When they brought up the gun, I stated that carrying the gun is directly protected by the Constitution and gives them no right to ask me anything and then I asked again, am I being detained.

Know your rights, if you do not know them you do not deserve them.

edit to add-the last statement was for everyone, not particularly to the commenter I am responding to

[edit on 7/26/2010 by endisnighe]

Jebus, WHY is it wrong to want people to play by the rules?

Either everyone abides by them or they apply to no one.

If I have to follow the rules, then YOU have to follow rules; and I could NOT care less about the color of your damn hide!!!

the question is,

how many are returning to their nations of origin,

& how many are just shifting around to new states in the US?

Is the only defense of your own state to enact its own version of the Arizona law?

[edit on 26-7-2010 by slank]

reply to post by endisnighe

But, remember that if they have a valid reason to speak with you, like say a person in the area has committed a crime and you fit the description, this is a valid reason for them to ask you for id.

Probably will be a lot of "There has been a crime in this area." going down in Arizona pretty soon.

"There has been a crime in this area, and you fit the description, we need to see your ID."

They won't tell you what the crime is (Most likely because no crime had been committed.), but now you don't have the protection of the 4th Amendment because of the catch all phrase above, you will be stopped, and searched additionally and unrelated to the crime you are now a suspect for, you will have your 4th Amendment rights again violated as they accuse you of not being a citizen and see if you actually are indeed a citizen.

Nice. Gestapo much?

reply to post by whatukno

They cannot according to the constitution make up their own immigration laws that are not uniform with the Federal law.

Well, it goes the same way as far as I'm concerned; the Federal government can keep its hands off of laws that states have the right to make, and they don't...so I guess all is fair.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Chance321

 

Probably worried about the genocidal Neo-Nazis that just had their dream come true. Their fascist agenda of a white America was passed in Arizona.

Probably worried that since they are CRIMINALS, that they might get arrested for being CRIMINALS....

Undocumented is apparently, the politically correct way to say, "CRIMINAL" now adays

Based on your answer, I'm assuming you think we should allow criminals to stay in our country and be allowed to live free ?????

reply to post by whatukno


Well, why don't you write a thread on how LEO's are breaking the Constitution?

No? Just wanted to get on this thread and accuse people that believe in the LAW are just a bunch of Nazi's, right?

I still believe there is no crime without a victim.

Like I said, I believe in the borders of a sovereign nation. You must not.

So in essence you believe the world should be under one world gubmint and controlled by the ruling elite.

Glad to see you are pushing agenda 21 NAU and NWO.

Nice to see the globalist/statist coming out and pushing their agenda in open.

Hey everyone, wuk is a globalist!

At least he has finally come out and showed his true colors.

reply to post by whatukno


Since you seem to have all the answers, what do you think we should do about illegal immigration?

.what the hell CRIMINAL INVADERS!

lol talk about the pot calling the kettle black, iraq, afghanistan ... seppo's are the true criminals in this world, the only #ry that as used nukes yet goes around killing children in illegal wars viva la mexico