Rejected from boyscouts for not believing in God

reply to post by projectvxn


Yet you are permitted to go around shoving your beliefs in our faces!? But if we dare try and bring some equality, law and justice to our governmental system we are said to be the ones attacking others?

Would you have told the founding fathers to stop because they were attacking the establishment? Isn't it part of the American spirit to question and hold accountable the establishment? I cannot think of anything more American than the minority questioning the acts of the majority!

And as for your 12-13% Atheist attack, I must correct you it is actually about 3% of world population but it largely varies depending on the source. And the reason for such a small representation of the population is due to the heredity of religion, it is part of the traditional family structure to indoctrinate their children into their religion. Religion is so good at covering every aspect of itself from scrutiny, question and inquiry.

They make sure to instill enough fear in you so that you never question god, you always defend your religion and you always uphold your beliefs as true even in the face of overwhelming argument of facts against beliefs.

Per Se your 12% statistic was correct, that just means ~822,960,000 people have actually removed their heads from the sand and broke the chains of hereditary indoctrination.

The BSA are allowed to set their own criteria for membership, one of which happens to be belief in God. It doesn't have to be a Christian God it can be any form, here are just a few:

r Explorers: * African Methodist Episcopal Church * African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church * Anglican Catholic Church * Armenian Apostolic Church of America (Western Prelacy) * Armenian Church of America (Eastern Diocese) * Baha'i * Baptist * Buddhist * Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) * Christian Methodist Episcopal Church * Church of Christ, Scientist (Christian Scientist) * Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints * Churches of Christ * Community of Christ * Eastern Catholic * Eastern Orthodox * Episcopal * General Church of the New Jerusalem (The New Church) * Hindu * Islamic * Jewish * Lutheran * Meher Baba * Moravian * National Association of Anglican and Traditional Catholic Scouters * Polish National Catholic Church * Presbyterian Church in America * Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) * Protestant and Independent Christian Churches - (Available to any Christian denomination) * Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) * Roman Catholic * The Salvation Army * Unitarian-Universalist Scouters Association * United Church of Christ * United Methodist * United Pentecostal Church International * Unity Churches * Zoroastrian

The BSA does not require adherence to any particular religious beliefs or ethos beyond this. Buddhists, followers of Native American religions, Muslims, Jews, Christians of all denominations, Wiccans, and many others can be and are members of the BSA. The BSA officially recognizes religious emblems for over 38 faith groups including Baha'i, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and many varieties of Christianity. Boy Scouts of America approved religious emblems exist for all these except for Wicca and Native American religions. The former exists but has not been approved due to less than 25 chartered Wiccan units.[citation needed] The BSA recognizes religious awards for over 38 faith groups including Baha'i, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism, and 28 varieties of Christianity.[16]

[edit on 25-7-2010 by pavil]

The 10 year old gets props for being honest, but to be a Boy Scout being agnostic or an atheist won't do.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by pavil]

just like the pledge, it doesn't say which god, just A god.

meaning monotheistic, just like the freemasons, just like the military.

in order to join the military one must swear an oath to god and choose a religion to be placed on the dogtag. even if it's nondenominational.

boy scouts = military jr.

"On my honor I will do my best. To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law..."

one of the 12 points of the scout law is reverence. so again, in order to be qualified for the program and a good scout, one must respect the religions of others. (in theory.)

why would an atheist even want to join?! scouting is all bout promoting one nation under god.










[edit on 25/7/2010 by gravykraken]

I think it depends a lot on the scout leader. I was in the scouts about 15 years ago now, and it was the same, you had to have "a belief". I told them I had none, and they said it didn't matter that much, just put anything down, Some people just put silly things on the form like "Religion: Squirrels". I just put something like that down too, and nothing was ever said of it again. Apart from when we did flag ceremony which mentioned God, like many flag ceremonies, and once a year on a national holiday when we attended a rather secular style church service, religion was never mentioned. Overall it was a very worthwhile experience for me.


[edit on 25/7/2010 by harpsounds]

reply to post by Misoir


I don't shove my beliefs in your face. I'm only responding with my opinion on the matter.

90% of the time I keep it to myself. If people ask I tell.

I've spent all of my life questioning everything I've been told. I don't just accept things at face value. I've studied many religions. They all have things in common, but the one thing above all that they share, for the most part, is a belief in a creative force. God. Whatever you wanna call it.

I cannot understand why you would harbor so much ill-will toward a force no one can comprehend, let alone be explained by some system of religious regimentation. Now, if your issue is with the use of religion to justify any manner of crime, then you and I certainly agree. I stand on principle and on the side of understanding. Not regimentation, dogma, and ignorance.

Beliefs are a tricky thing. The one thing YOU are doing wrong is attempting to destroy a positive perception of religious spiritualism. And this is not ok. If you want to understand the religious, study the religion. You have to be able to empathize with those who believe. Not because you should or must believe, but because you'll be able to relate and understand those who do.

As for the "atheist attack", you missed the point. It's not about the religion, but whether you're even capable of being in tune with your spirit. The essence of who you are.

You act as if hereditary traditions are a form of brainwashing, and this is not true, it is part of who we are as a species and it goes back to the beginning of civilization. To act as if it is a crime to pass on your beliefs to your children is hypocritical. Who did your cousin learn the concept of atheism from?

Don't throw stones in glass houses.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by projectvxn]

Man am I depressed and contemplating a law suit. I tried to join Al Qaeda but found out I couldn't because I was agnostic.
All sarcasm aside-
Tell the boy not to fret; there's always the YMCA.

[edit on 7/25/2010 by abecedarian]

Originally posted by Misoir

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-James2.19

Troop 567

What a load of crap!

And 'no king but jesus', I thought we gave up monarchy for democracy? Down with all kings! God, Jesus and whoever else wants to rule over people without their consent.

Oh shut up you cry baby! Nobody is forcing you to believe in God so just shut your trap. I get so tired of people like you, You all whine about how bad religion is but the only religion you seem to hate is christianity. We never hear you people cry about a religion like Islam.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Misoir

 

I don't shove my beliefs in your face. I'm only responding with my opinion on the matter.

90% of the time I keep it to myself. If people ask I tell.

I've spent all of my life questioning everything I've been told. I don't just accept things at face value. I've studied many religions. They all have things in common, but the one thing above all that they share, for the most part, is a belief in a creative force. God. Whatever you wanna call it.

I cannot understand why you would harbor so much ill-will toward a force no one can comprehend, let alone be explained by some system of religious regimentation. Now, if your issue is with the use of religion to justify any manner of crime, then you and I certainly agree. I stand on principle and on the side of understanding. Not regimentation, dogma, and ignorance.

Beliefs are a tricky thing. The one thing YOU are doing wrong is attempting to destroy a positive perception of religious spiritualism. And this is not ok. If you want to understand the religious, study the religion. You have to be able to empathize with those who believe. Not because you should or must believe, but because you'll be able to relate and understand those who do.

As for the "atheist attack", you missed the point. It's not about the religion, but whether you're even capable of being in tune with your spirit. The essence of who you are.

You act as if hereditary traditions are a form of brainwashing, and this is not true, it is part of who we are as a species and it goes back to the beginning of civilization. To act as if it is a crime to pass on your beliefs to your children is hypocritical. Who did your cousin learn the concept of atheism from?

Don't throw stones in glass houses.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by projectvxn]

To me it sounds like he's mad because God didn't give him that X-Box 360 he asked for.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Misoir

 

Well I knew that the boy scouts were a religious institution to begin with really, however I have a different question.

Why is the 10 year old an Atheist? Is he old enough to even comprehend what religion is? He's obviously not mature at 10 to make up his mind about sprirituality and God.

His belly button isn't even healed yet!

I hate hearing crap like this, when kids have a religion, or don't have one for that matter.

People need to stop putting religion into kid's head. Either belief in religion or belief against it, they should wait until they can comprehend.

Boy Scouts suck anyway.

~Keeper

The default position therefore is to be an atheist.

Further - I can assure you with 100% clarity that I was well and truly an atheist by 10. In fact I was an atheist by the time I was 6. My first session to do communion or whatever the hell you call it sent me into a tailspin - I thought it was some sick, sick joke - could not believe what these people were crapping on about. Told my mum what a ridiculous load of crap they were talking to me about at school that day - end of story. Atheist for life.
Some people are just wiser to the scams and garbage that life throws at us.

reply to post by Misoir


You mentioned that he is 10 years old. The age requirement is 11.

The only way he could join at 10 is if he earned his Arrow of Light badge as a Cub Scout. In which case, during the bridge crossing ceremony when he received the award, he would have automatically joined the sponsoring troop on the other side of the bridge.

reply to post by Alien Mind


I don't think there's any need to demean him like that.

Some people are at different stages of understanding. He's at his, you're at yours. One thing I will say, at least he's involved in debate. I hope we can all learn something as a result of this discussion.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by projectvxn]

reply to post by abecedarian




Young Men's Christian Association!


Hey OP, I see you do not like anything that you cannot FORCE to conform to your beliefs.

NICE TO SEE YOU SHOWING YOUR COLORS.

I think you should tell the 10 year old to join the Muslims of America and then when he declares that he is an atheist and they reject him, HE CAN SUE.

reply to post by projectvxn


I have three main reasons for hating religion.

1. They believe in supernatural nonsense and a figurehead which has had absolutely no proof of even existing.

2. Using their religion to justify holding back progress of science, evolution and social change. Using the Bible to say gays don't deserve equal marriage rights, using the Koran to say women don't deserve equal rights, using the Torah to say you can take land from others and oppress them due to historical promises.

3. Continuously forcing their beliefs onto society whether this is through government use to enforce your religious values on the country. Quietly indoctrinating through intimidation and commercialization. I am FORCED into dealing with laws that are in place because their religion says it's immoral.

I do not know how my cousin became Atheist because his mom is extremely religious, she's an Evangelical Christian, and his dad is not around. While I wish I could say I helped him on his path to enlightenment I can't because before we started talking to each other(about 6 months ago) he was already Atheist.

reply to post by projectvxn


I don't see why you think that Atheism is merely a stage in development. It really comes down to your either on side left or right.

Do you make your decisions on spirituality, religion and god based upon; 1. Scientific fact and evidence, or 2. Belief and understanding.

I am number 1, and all people who believe in any form of Supernatural are number 2.

Some people leave Atheism further in life like my Uncle did after my grandma just passed. I can't say I will NEVER turn religious or spiritual, but as long as I stick to only believing in fact and evidence then I will remain and Atheist.


I suggest you just READ The God Delusion, even if you don't agree with what he says at least you will have a very clear understanding of my side, Atheism. If there are any books that you recommend me reading then I will, just don't say something like the Bible or Torah.

[edit on 7/27/2010 by Misoir]

My son's an Eagle Scout, and all the way through his time in the scouts, this was never an issue. When his pack or troop attended a church service, he went with them and listened and learned.

No one ever forced him to go to a service or made an issue of it. There was one offer for him to join the church the troop was affiliated with,were the usual raised eyebrows now and then if it came up that he didn't belong to a church, but a good ignoring gets that to stop pretty quick.

Also, I believe that list is just a list of the religion pins they can work toward, and that pin is not mandatory. But my Boy Scout lore is rusty now...it's been a few years.

I don't believe the Scouts reject anyone for their religious belief or lack thereof. It was probably a local ignoramus you ran into. Why it even came up as an issue if your cousin or his parent or parents didn't bring it up is beyond me.

I really don't think that Wiki is correct. If your cousin is serious about being in Scout just have him take it to the local council.

If that Wiki is correct, the BSA have at least one atheist Eagle Scout they probably don't even know about

[edit on 7/27/2010 by ~Lucidity]

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
No one ever forced him to go to a service or made an issue of it. There was one offer for him to join the church the troop was affiliated with,were the usual raised eyebrows now and then if it came up that he didn't belong to a church, but a good ignoring gets that to stop pretty quick.

[edit on 7/27/2010 by ~Lucidity]

Yup, she is correct. although the raised eyebrows came more from the parents of other members more so than the leaders of the organization.

i did a bunch of work with the church, helping out with church based community service and the like, but when it came down to it was never an option of "believe in god or get out" in fact the issue rarely came up.

while the boyscouts were mostly associated with christian views (most troops have an affiliated christian church that they work with) we had a lot of kids that were Jewish, Mormon, atheist, and agnostic. In my troop the issue rarely came up.

At most boyscout summer camps there is a Sunday service that is ALWAYS optional. and the majority of the time they are very careful of who they choose to conduct these services so as not to upset anyone.

i feel sorry for those of you who are discrediting the importance of this great organization because of either bad info, or bad experiences. the life lessons i learned in the scouts, i consider very valuable. to the OP, im sorry that your cousin has been rejected from the scouts, perhaps you could appeal to the board or find a better (read: more open minded) troop that he could be a part of.

[edit on 27-7-2010 by The Mo]

I suffered a similar fate when I spoke my mind about pledging my allegiance to God and the Queen. I was just a kid; and I refused to accept these ideas being forced down my throat.

Where it came from at that time; I don't know. I simply refused to accept it and told the scout leader that I don't believe in monarchies or organized religion and will no submit my allegiance to anything I don't believe in.

It was a nice kick/ban from Scouts, no big deal... one less brainwashing organization for me to have to endure and exist in.

Misoir ... i don't understand your anger? Although i'm a christian, so you'll probably hate me too.

I was a scout, unfortunately not for long. My kids are now doing scouting and even some of their friends have joined them. It completely makes up for the lack of real education in schools, on every level from social to scientific and nature, etc.

Now where we are 2 funny things have happened:
1. Scouts are now co-ed. My son and daughter are in the same pack.
2. The scout group is supported by the freemasons, next door.

I'm not going anywhere near that, since i can't say i'm happy about it, but it's the best my kids can get, so i give it to them. I mention this since the freemasons (of which baden powell was almost certainly a member, have belief in "a god" as their only requirement.

Now you are spot on with seperation of church and state. But this isn't the same thing at all. Scouts are taught to be above all, self reliant. And if you are going to be a scout, you need to have a sense of morality. Now again from the freemasons, what is the least that any citizen can ask of another that needs trust?
Do you have your own god, to which you are answerable? Now even if you're a moslem, i as a christian can accept that you are subservient to "higher authority" to which you'll abide.

If you are an athiest, and believe yourself to be the pinnacle of creation, with absolutely no moral "duties" to adhere to, frankly i wouldn't want you around my kids. (not to say all christians moslems etc are blameless, but we're talking about minimum requirements, and publicly displayed sense of duty.)

If this kid wants to be a part of society, he will at some point have to bow to the will of society. Or he can just be an athiest, with no friends, and be his own god, just like "our" God, who found Himself lonely.

His choice really. getting upset with "decent people" who wish to have "decent standards" by which to run their lives should be applauded by free thinkers such as yourself.

reply to post by harryhaller


It is the pure ignorance and intolerance that you just spouted in your post that has led to many Atheists hating religious people. Ever wonder why Atheists appear so militant? LOOK IN THE MIRROR!

So I don't answer to any higher power than myself and the law so that makes me a bad person, huh? Yeah I have a couple corpses sitting in my basement, no big deal though because I don't believe in a god.[sarcasm]

Ever wonder why the most peaceful, tolerant and safe countries in the world are also the MOST Secular (i.e. Free thinkers, Agnostics, Atheists, etc..) and the most dangerous countries are also the MOST Religious (i.e. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc...)

Maybe you feel that if you didn't have a god to answer to you would be out doing immoral acts but not me, I answer to no supernatural being because there is none and I have never been in any legal trouble hell I have never even had detention in school either. I help sick people and I care about everyone, even religious nut jobs like you. I want everyone fed, clothed, housed and working, and I will sacrifice my income to make sure it happens.

Why? Is it because I answer to a god that makes me feel obligated to do good deeds? NO. I do them because that is what you are supposed to do, you help other people. I am focused on making this world better, not just doing enough to make it through to 'heaven'. We have one life and it's your choice of what to do with it, you can either waste it hoping for a better eternal life or you can make this world, the only world, a better place.

So don't you dare say I am at all lacking of morals!


[edit on 7/27/2010 by Misoir]

Originally posted by The Mo
im sorry that your cousin has been rejected from the scouts, perhaps you could appeal to the board or find a better (read: more open minded) troop that he could be a part of.

To be honest, my impression of the story in the OP was that the cousin took one look at the application form and decided not to bother applying.

If that's the way it went, then talk of "rejection" by the troop would be a little out of place.