Don't Let Congress Green-Light Attack on Iran

reply to post by pthena

Fair enough.
I'm used to a system in which politicians vote on party lines, so I took it for granted that anything presented by the minority stood no chance.

(Sigh)

Please do not tell me that there are people who STILL believe that they have any power to influence what is going on. PLEASE...

I am a practical person. Please, anyone have any plan or even an idea of how we can do something about this slavery we are in?

No... I thought not.

Please do not think you have any say on the larger issues. The choices you have are granted to you because they are meaningless in the context of the wider scheme. These serve only to provide you with the illusion of participation in 'society'. The bigger picture is something you will never be able to influence.

So back to work (if you have a job) and pay your taxes. Many billions are required to give to fund these wars. Of course, it will never be paid back. What is the point when we can just start a war and inflate it away! The miracle that is economics. Death provides for the living.

Do not believe that there is some sort of justice out there. The people with the biggest guns get to do what they want. Look what happened to the Native Americans.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by Pentothal]

I believe they only get the green light for self defense.
If not then there is no stopping this. and all the countries that are against Israel and America will take this as an act of world war. i mean come on at this point how much difference is there between us and Germany in the great world wars. this may not be the straw that breaks the camels back but it sure will be one step closer to another big world conflict.

reply to post by Pentothal

Please do not tell me that there are people who STILL believe that they have any power to influence what is going on. PLEASE...

I am a practical person. Please, anyone have any plan or even an idea of how we can do something about this slavery we are in?

No... I thought not.

I'm basically a bi-polar person, non-medicated. As such I cycle through periods of optimism and hope, and then periods of despair. I consider conclusions I can hold in both states to be of some rational utility. This post does represent a limited bit of activism on my part, as lame as it is.

The reality is, as you say, that the monied and well armed are the megaphone holders in the corridors of power. Nevertheless there are people with more fortitude than me who have devoted their lives over decades to continue making people's lives better.

I propose writing to congress people. Writing to this forum. Lame? Yes and no. To be in the fray is more satisfying then not. Like the special Olympic saying, "We're all winners". Sappy? Yes. Nevertheless, we the handicapped, the voiceless and powerless are "Special".

who isn't bi polar
Hmmm well I am so tired of the talk of war
.
.
.
.
.
Where is that dam city sized meteor?

reply to post by swine flue

I believe they only get the green light for self defense.

Every violent act engaged in by US and Israel is called self defense. The whole tenor of the bill is making the case that Israel is in a current state of "existential threat". The passage of this bill will be the signal for an immediate "self defensive" move.

At the end of the day if your a god fearing christian you can not speak against israel,it is the place he will set up is kingdom, I keep going over this in my mind but i resign to the fact i am not all seeing knowing,i aint going to go against god

reply to post by dashar

At the end of the day if your a god fearing christian you can not speak against israel,it is the place he will set up is kingdom, I keep going over this in my mind but i resign to the fact i am not all seeing knowing,i aint going to go against god

I don't recommend going against god. But if you stick to facts, it minimizes that hazard.

According to the story: Israel is a federation of 12(at least symbolically) tribes. Named after Israel aka Jacob, descended from Isaac, descended from Abraham.

Hebrew. Dictionary.com. Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper, Historian. dictionary.reference.com... (accessed: July 25, 2010).

late O.E., from O.Fr. Ebreu, from L. Hebraeus, from Gk. Hebraios, from Aramaic 'ebhrai, corresponding to Heb. 'ibhri "an Israelite," lit. "one from the other side," in reference to the River Euphrates, or perhaps simply signifying "immigrant;" from 'ebher "region on the other or opposite side." Derogatory slang shortening Hebe is first recorded 1932.

Focus on the root meaning "from the other side" and secondarily as "immigrant", and I would suggest "wanderer" from the perspective of Christian writings. see Hebrews:

HEB 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

HEB 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

HEB 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

You should know that Jesus considered those who acted like Abraham as children of Abraham as opposed to those who merely could trace some geneology.

Abraham did not engage in ethnic cleansing in order to hold control of some territory. If you believe the Revelation, then understand that 144,000 in chapter 7 are from all the tribes of Israel, not Jews.

The Jewish people are a pseudo tribe purporting to be Judeans. It isn't the tribe of Judah as one of 12 tribes of Israel, but a substitute for a tribe. Much the way Lutheran means a member of a self identified pseudo tribe, spiritual descendant of Luther's ideas and/or creeds. The substitution isn't of Jew instead of the one tribe Judah, but Jew as substitute for the whole 12 tribe confederation.

No doubt many Israelites are Jews, and many are Samaritans, and many are Palestinians. Is there some worldy government tasked by God to sort out and determine one from another? I don't think so. If so called Jewish states had such divine judgment, many people who have been killed would not have been.

Then can some religious group such as followers of Jesus make a righteous and just determination?

MT 13:27 "The owner's servants came to him and said, `Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

MT 13:28 " `An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, `Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

MT 13:29 " `No,' he answered, `because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

I think weed pullers, those who say some must leave or die while others are encouraged to stay, aren't proper followers of Jesus.

Disclaimer: I am what some would consider an apostate, one who was with the worldly powerful Church before he left it. I "went over" like Abraham to the outside of the camp. (Heb 13:13,14)

I hope this is some help.

here is a link to one resource: Challenging Christian Zionism I'm pretty sure the page reflects many different perspectives, from Evangelical thru Liberation.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by dashar
The MSG Bible gives an interesting version of Mathew 11:13,

But if you read the books of the Prophets and God's Law closely, you will see them culminate in John, teaming up with him in preparing the way for the Messiah of the kingdom.

You need to realize that Americans have been propagandized for the last hundred years to believe in a prophetic kingdom in Israel, as in the former Judea. Well the Old Testament prophesied of Jesus and the New Testament prophesies of the anti-christ in the temple, so who do you support? Christ, or the anti-christ when you support a fake country that takes the name Israel.

Originally posted by pthena
I'm basically a bi-polar person, non-medicated. As such I cycle through periods of optimism and hope, and then periods of despair. I consider conclusions I can hold in both states to be of some rational utility. This post does represent a limited bit of activism on my part, as lame as it is.

The reality is, as you say, that the monied and well armed are the megaphone holders in the corridors of power. Nevertheless there are people with more fortitude than me who have devoted their lives over decades to continue making people's lives better.

I propose writing to congress people. Writing to this forum. Lame? Yes and no. To be in the fray is more satisfying then not. Like the special Olympic saying, "We're all winners". Sappy? Yes. Nevertheless, we the handicapped, the voiceless and powerless are "Special".

You seem to have a greater, clearer grasp than most. The ability to observe ones own reactions to events and analyse them is an ability few have. Most are swept away in the chaos without thought and become carried by events not observers of them.

I get frustrated by 'people' collectively. We have the power and ability to effect change in any way we can but our own selfish fears prevent us from acting as one and remain in the herd. One dog can control hundreds of sheep. Imagine if just 10 decided not to comply.

reply to post by Pentothal

You seem to have a greater, clearer grasp than most. The ability to observe ones own reactions to events and analyse them is an ability few have. Most are swept away in the chaos without thought and become carried by events not observers of them.

I get frustrated by 'people' collectively. We have the power and ability to effect change in any way we can but our own selfish fears prevent us from acting as one and remain in the herd. One dog can control hundreds of sheep. Imagine if just 10 decided not to comply.

As written by Herodotus in Book I of Histories concerning the Persians:

It is also their general practice to deliberate upon affairs of weight
when they are drunk; and then on the morrow, when they are sober,
the decision to which they came the night before is put before them
by the master of the house in which it was made; and if it is then
approved of, they act on it; if not, they set it aside. Sometimes,
however, they are sober at their first deliberation, but in this case
they always reconsider the matter under the influence of wine.

Provided by The Internet Classics Archive.
See bottom for copyright. Available online at
classics.mit.edu...
Ln 2414


Drunkenness is similar to delusions, which come to some spontaneously and upon others through propaganda. Sobriety likewise comes spontaneously to some and with very great work for others. Vested interests are at work attempting to prevent sobriety, that includes that directed at elected representatives.

It behooves the people to present themselves as sane and factual while communicating with representatives; not always easy when worked up by anger and disappointment.



[edit on 26-7-2010 by pthena]

Ex-CIA Director: Attack on Iran Seems Unavoidable
The US has been threatening to attack Iran over its civilian nuclear program for many years now, as has Israel. The US recently pressed a series of sanctions through the UN Security Council to punish Iran for not abandoning the program, and both the US and EU have passed even further unilateral sanctions.

All of these sanctions have been couched as trying to stop Iran from having "acquiring nuclear weapons." Yet Hayden’s comments underscore the reality, that officials object to Iran having even a civilian energy program, one which they have every right to as a member in good standing of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

At least a little honesty is engaged in occasionally. The fact is that the threat looks like this. "We the US demand that you, Iran cease all legally guaranteed activities, then we will talk about whether we destroy you economically and/or militarily or not."

Iran: "How about we talk rationally, without belligerence, and without precondition of suspension of legal activities."

Papers from Nixon Library indicate US knowledge of Israel's Nuclear Weapons program and likely fallout if revealed. Of special note is anticipated political price that would be paid for pressing Israel about NPT.

July 19, 1969
I recommend downloading the 6 page pdf file.
nixon.archives.gov...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6e123394e2ea.jpg[/atsimg] From page 1
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/907f05b2681b.jpg[/atsimg] From page 4

It looks to me like the US/Israel "special relation" is putting the US on the wrong side here. What do you call it when a country persecutes to death a country it has a treaty with on behalf of another country it doesn't have a treaty with?

I find it interesting that this is released from the Nixon Library while that bill which is the subject of this thread is under consideration.


[edit on 26-7-2010 by pthena]

Originally posted by Expat888
Just a shame that the u.s government stopped listening to the will of the people long ago.. Regardless what the public wants there will be another illegal war and massive loss of innocent lives..
*sigh* they will never learn and the senseless slaughter continues...

The people voted for Barack Obama in 2008 and one of his campaigning speeches very clearly said "Iran must not get the bomb". Obama was elected by a majority, so they must have supported his stand on Iran as well. If Iran is proven to really be pursuing nuclear weapons then I expect the popular majority to be all about taking those weapons away by whatever means necessary.

reply to post by black cat
I do not find that argument compelling.
I think people voted for Obama for other reasons like his promise to not create new taxes.
When asked directly, people in America are not in favor of another war and were already disgusted with the ones we had.

reply to post by black cat
If I remember correctly, Obama was actually talking about talking directly with Iran with no preconditions. Americans voted for him, thinking he would pull the troops out of Iraq and possibly normalize relations with Iran.

Mossad chief reportedly visited Saudi Arabia for talks on Iran

Two months ago, the Times of London reported that during the course of a Saudi military exercise, air defense system operations were halted for a few hours to rehearse a scenario whereby Israeli fighter planes would cross Saudi Arabian air space en route to an attack on Iran.

Arab and Iranian media outlets have also reported Israeli air force planes and helicopters landing in Saudi Arabia for the purposes of positioning equipment there.

It looks as if the Saudi's really don't care about the general prohibition against allowing their territory to be used for an attack against another Muslim country.

I suppose though that royal Wahabi Sunnis have more in common with Jewish Zionists than they do with a Shia majority Muslim nation. Is the commonality something to do with "special" relationship with US?

reply to post by pthena


If only it were ever actually in our hands.
You and I both know what is going to happen.
They're going to do it. Just like they always do it. Just like they are supposed to do it.

We can't change these events from happening, they have to just play out.
Once they do this it is the cataclysmic signal for the end of this time-cycle.

Then later...it goes back to the beginning.



- Lee

reply to post by lee anoma
Anything that hasn't actually happened isn't 100% certain to happen.

I read a lot of opinion pieces about this; some say it's gonna happen no matter what, other list reasons it won't happen.

I remember though what GW Bush was telling the Congress when wanted authorization to use force against Iraq, "If you pass this, then the UN will know we're serious, and pressure Saddam to come clean, I don't want war, but may be forced into war." Of coarse he was lying. He wanted it, and nothing would stop it.

Here we are again, attempting to starve Iran out. Those sanctions, UN, US, EU are as severe as those against Iraq that resulted in 100s of thousands of deaths, and as severe as those the Gaza is under.

For what? To stop Iran from having nuclear energy? For crying out loud! There is no logical or rational reason the US and Iran couldn't have normalized relations way back in 1980.

There is another possible reason for war which is really illogical to the normal person, so no one seriously brings it up.
Israel asked the Jews in Iran to move to Israel. The Iranian Jews said they were quite happy where they were, thank you.
If their country was destroyed like Iraq was the Jews would have no choice but to leave, along with any Christians for that matter.
It is some sort of sickness, I believe, in the people who run things in the Zionist Regime that would do anything to get what they want.


[edit on 29-7-2010 by jmdewey60]