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Will The REAL Christians Please Stand Up?

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posted on Jul, 26 2010 @ 05:33 PM
reply to post by soleprobe

I think you are definately on to something and these may help, they did me-

Even that question came up only because of some so-called Christians there—false ones, really—who were secretly brought in. They sneaked in to spy on us and take away the freedom we have in Christ Jesus. They wanted to enslave us and force us to follow their Jewish regulations. 5 But we refused to give in to them for a single moment. We wanted to preserve the truth of the gospel message for you.-Gal2.4(NLT)

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!-Gal1.8

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.-Gal5.4

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.-Heb8.6

However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.-1Pet4.16

the key in "Lord, Lord" is did'nt we DO

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.-Eph2.8

Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.-Gal3.21

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions UNTIL the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.-.19 key word UNTIL and who one think's that seed is

to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son-Heb1.5

Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize.-Col2.18

before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls-Rom9.11

So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there— so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.-Is28.13

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.-Heb4.12

who say, 'Keep away; don't come near me, for I am too sacred for you!' Such people are smoke in my nostrils, a fire that keeps burning all day.-Is65.5

posted on Jul, 26 2010 @ 05:35 PM
reply to post by No King but Jesus

..More babbel to fill in the blanks for where you fail at debate and reason.

Shove the old words, old social values down the kids mouths, to our future generation, let them deny science [don't deny that doesn't happen btw]

Religious extremists have even been known to prevent vaccinations because its "against God's design" - yeah "screw people, even if we can save em, screw them for "GOD" wherever he may be".

Lets tell people what to do, because a book says so, lets make children think that without God they are sick, commanded to be well and all for one imaginary fear of Hell, all in the if they can't learn empathy or social obligations without God. Values that give enough reason and logic to learn that killing is wrong or stealing and cheating is wrong, we know thats negative, do we need God to do good acts?

Its narrows your mind, you're narrowing the minds of our children, we don't need God for hope, we don't need God for peace. These are my points, answer them if you will, or just paste more and more babbel without proper commentry. Awaiting your response to my questions and/or arguments.

posted on Jul, 26 2010 @ 06:26 PM
reply to post by awake_and_aware

He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him-John7.18

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.-Matt4.10

this is what I know as in with a life or death certainty, an audible voice said-"my name, I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish"-before i knew any scripts or bible verses, but at the same time it was at the exact moment when I had begun to open a Gideon NT that a woman had left on the bar/counter a few days earlier

posted on Jul, 27 2010 @ 04:17 AM
reply to post by No King but Jesus

The elect of God are not many and they have never labeled themselves... only God can label them. The reason why there are few elect of God is because very few truly obey God. It may come as a surprise to many but true men of God have always been very few, very much alone in the world but in great company within the invisible household of God.

Enoch was all by himself in the world when he saw the world he lived in plunging into moral decay.

After Enoch was taken up by God there was another man of God called Noah who stood all alone in that same world which had become even more corrupted.

After God utterly destroyed that extremely corrupt world another godly man arouse, totally alone in the world who God eventually called Abraham.

Abraham, all alone in the world with God, had to leave his home country and his family and live with God while roaming through the wilderness living in tents. Later, but to a much lesser degree there was Lot, who was taught God’s ways from Abraham, which is why God saved him from the destruction that was to come to Sodom.

Afterwards there was Isaac. He was eventually alone in the world after his father Abraham died but soon God raised up another man of God which He later renamed Israel. Jacob was very much alone in the world when he had to leave his household to flee from Esau’s wrath.

When Jacob dwelt all those years with Laban, Nahor’s grandson, he was all alone in the world except for Isaac, whom he didn’t see again for many years.

Jacob and his twelve sons were all alone in the world and when Joseph was taken captive and brought to Egypt, he was a man of God all alone in the world of Egypt. Joseph was a man of God because like his father Jacob he obeyed God.

After the man of God Joseph, came another man of God named Moses. He too was all alone in the world when he was given instructions from God to deliver His people out of Egypt. Moses was a man of God because he learned to obey God, just as the men of God who preceded him.

Then you had other men of God, the prophets, who came afterwards who were very much alone in the world and obedient towards God. Few fell like David, but he was forgiven and he continued being obedient to God.

After them came John the Baptist, who was very much alone in the world, eating locust and wild honey living in the wilderness not dressed according to the standard attire of the times, he too was a man of God because he obeyed God and paved the way for the Lord’s first coming.

Then you have the Lord, who was very much alone in the world and He too was not only a man of God but also God in the Flesh. He too was obedient to God the Father and His obedience separated himself from the world eventually dying alone on the cross as a man of God and God in the Flesh.

There have never been very many elect of God, why do people think that today in such a time of darkness that it would be any different?

posted on Jul, 27 2010 @ 05:46 AM
As often is the case in debates around religion, and especially 'christianity' (with its extreme potential for monomania, intolerance and violence), the positions tend to become black/white very soon. So with risk of seemingly sidetracking this thread, and being boring on top of that, I would like to 'upgrade' a bit, by finding what's the common denominator for all the various opinions presented here.

Mankind has a special talent for processing information into structures of a rather abstract quality. Some of these structures are models trying to describe ultimate reality. But no matter how good intentions we have, all such reality models are beliefsystems, because no model/beliefsystem can be more precise, objective or 'true' than the parameters used as tools for acchieving information or processing it. E.g. oldtime 'scientism' (before quantum-mechanics), which insisted on reductionist materialist empericism.

Usually we can only arrive at approximations of reality.

While I do not deny the existence of 'faith' per se as a real part of human nature, on line with other intangible human traits like emotions, ethic and estetics, any model/beliefsystem based mainly or exclusively on faith is basically worthless. With faith as the only parameter its resulting beliefsystem will be so narrow, that it has to disregard, deny, lie about or remove any inconvenient evidence not fitting in its small pseudoreality-bubble. This statement will by religious fundamentalistic fanatics either be ignored or met by a quantitative wall of

As fanatic religionists by character usually aren't interested in philosophical arguments, I will alternatively present a pragmatic approach: Why is YOUR faithbased beliefsystem more correct than other faithbased beliefsystems?

It's not my intention to exclude or belittle faith. But used alone, it can be a sign of a sick mind. Used integrated with other tools, it can be a valuable addition to human knowledge and existence.

Any efforts to meet me by further 'babbling' wil be responded to with a critical analysis of the psychology of fanatism. Politely ofcourse, but nor flattering. I can accept criticism of my opinions, but not if they are presented in steam-roller style of endless selfrighteousness.

posted on Jul, 27 2010 @ 04:02 PM

Originally posted by bogomil
Why is YOUR faithbased beliefsystem more correct than other faithbased beliefsystems?

I don't think it's a matter of correctness really. When one person claims correctness over another, only debate will result.
Personally, I feel that my faith is simply true. It is the True result of an earnest, open-minded search. I acknowledge that my search began with a bias toward the tenets of Christianity, but as I worked out my faith I tried on all sorts of religiosity. For me, I didn't feel like I could really come to a truly informed decision unless I explored all my alternatives.

posted on Jul, 27 2010 @ 04:11 PM
reply to post by bogomil

This is my reply, my apologies to the OP for not posting it here in the first place:

In my early twenties, my fiancé at the time (didn't work out for reasons unrelated to this thread) asked me why I believed so fervently in my faith. He also said that my answer couldn't be based on nor related to "because that's how I grew up," or "because that's what I was taught." With those two exclusions, I couldn't really come up with anything of much significance. Besides, to answer the question of "Why do you believe what you believe?" with "Because that's what I believe" doesn't really make much sense and it makes even less of an argument.

I grew up "Batholic" (1/2 Catholic- 1/2 Baptist). I also had 3 stepdads over the years, so a smattering of Assembly of God, Methodist, Episcopalian & Presbyterian can be thrown in there. I’ve witnessed lukewarm faith, no faith, true faith and wacky-nutty-insane-fanatic-silliness faith. Once I started college I quickly began to do what I now perceive most college kids of any particular faith doing, which is to begin intellectualizing my faith and attempting to find my place in it, or ultimately out of it.

In so doing, I began to slowly work towards the Eastern religious mindset of Universal faith, "all roads lead to God," the notion that we are all gods because we are part of God, Gnosticism, Agnosticism, getting legalistic about the actual dates & authorship of Gospels, analyzing hypothesized details about the life of Christ, His nature and the question of His divinity. Believing that Jesus was the only way seemed too exclusionary and biased, especially in light of the fact that having been born in 1975, I am part of the "p.c." generation, fostered to keep my opinions as general and benign, and therefore inoffensive, as possible. In a world that pities the "id" of humanity and is content to focus the development of future generations simply on the "ego,"----boundaries, rules, restrictions and ultimatums of any nature are considered offensive, frowned upon, even uncivilized.

So many on ATS rail against the NWO and TPTB, while their anti-religious mindset is part of the very thing they despise. The word "sin" has become a fundamental joke; people don't want to be reminded of their faults. They don't want to deal with the notion of their own humanity. Not in a world where we have convinced ourselves that we are God. A world where we have been vainly convinced that we are in control of even the weather and the biological evolution of living things--plant, animal & human alike, just to name a few. When you are God, you can't have any faults. You don't have the luxury of being able to make mistakes. So, we now define ourselves simply as a "perpetually evolving life-form," which conveniently leaves no room or reason for "sin" itself to exist.
But we all know that just because we refuse to acknowledge something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In a nutshell, true Christianity, as I define it anyway, is forgiveness. It is admitting that you have been or done wrong, saying you're sorry, letting go of pride and self reliance, accepting the fact that someone else paid for that mistake, and accepting that undeserved, unearned favor.

Justice is good, and since God is perfect, He is just. I do believe that Karma is a b*tch, that we will surely reap what we sow, and that for every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction. The only way to go outside the box when it comes to the laws of the Universe is if you are the one who created that Universe. Our Creator-provided loophole is being able to say we're sorry, have our apology accepted while being offered forgiveness, and in turn, bringing the incident full circle, thus cancelling it out. The fact is, we are here, we exist, and if you are inclined to believe so, we were created for an ultimate purpose. For some on ATS, that would be intergalactic experiments or even slavery. I have respectfully considered even that hypothesis, and have found it lacking and have thrown it into the furnace along with so many other flawed deductions I have pondered.

If you are inclined to believe in conspiracies--- I mean, this is ATS after all, so I'm assuming that most of you at the very least have an open mind to such, then consider the possibility that we are part of the Ultimate Conspiracy--- your belief in which, has no bearing on it's reality. The unbelief in which, serving only to make this Ultimate Conspiracy all the more conspiratorial.

A conspiracy to make us believe that our very existence is merely an experiment.
Or that our existence is for no particular reason at all.

A conspiracy to make us believe that we were created from the biological material of galactic demi-gods.
Or that we were not created at all, rather the benign result of some primordial soup having marinated under the most unlikely of conditions with mankind being its millennially-festered result. Yummy.

Of all the world faiths, Christianity seems to be the one that is the most diametrically opposed to itself.
According to Sun Tzu in The Art of War, “All war is based on deception.” With the ultimate deception being through infiltration. When you bypass an enemy’s front-line, you are able to destabilize and confuse, thus destroying your enemy from within. Add to that, diversionary and classic ruse de guerre tactics, and you quickly begin to have an advantage over your enemy. In my experience, most of the individuals who are so opposed to and even offended by religion typically only hold that regard towards the Christian faiths. And more often than not, if I’m given the opportunity to get to know them, their resentment, and at times even disgust, against Christianity as a whole is the result of their observation of a Christian, or certain group of Christians. Now whether said Christian or group of Christians were actively endeavoring to live out the true tenets of Christianity per Christ, or mere infiltrators, who’s sole goal of confusion or diversion happened to meet with success in that particular instance, we may never know. Also worth quoting from Sun Tzu in this regard is that, “All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.” So if we can’t necessarily see our enemy, what is one to do?
You will know them by their rotten fruit.
All human beings make mistakes, therefore what all non-believers should realize is that you will know true Christians by their good fruit.

One unequivocal thing I have learned so far, is that you will either believe or you won't, you do or you don't. Some simply don't want to, and God, the Creator of everything seen and unseen, respects their choice. How many people in your life actually offer you any respect whatsoever? Who are we to receive the honor of respect from the God of all gods? We are His special, unique treasure. So much so, that He created us in His image. Personally, I consider that makes us pretty f*ckin' special. Since Universal law tells me there is an equal but opposite reaction, then I can only deduce that there is a force, that in the simplest terms, deems humanity extremely UN-special indeed. A force that is hell-bent (ha ha) on our self-destruction, and for all intents and purposes, the destruction of the very image itself that we are created in.
Multi-tasking on an existential level.

Another unequivocal thing i have learned is that it is pointless to argue these points with anyone that never had any intention of entertaining the reality of them in the first place. One of the textbook complaints of non-belivers is that the Bible seems contradictory and the perception of "The Old Testament God VS. The New Testament God." You'll find no argument against this from me. I wrestle with my relationship with God daily because I seek the Truth. His Truth. The Truth is, God wants a relationship with us more than we could ever want a relationship with Him, or anyone else for that matter. Hell, that's the reason we exist in the first damn place, remember?? Anyway, you can't have a relationship with someone until you start to get to know them. The more you get to know them, the more significant the relationship. Those whom are most important to you in your life, are those whom you know the best, and whom best know you. Typically, these relationships have had their ups and downs and have taken a considerable amount of work because your desire to have a relationship with these people was totally worth everything you've been through with them. Once you really start to get to know someone, you start to learn how they think. Decisions that they make, in which at one time before you really got to know them, would have condemned or at the very least, disagreed with, you now have an understanding of how they see their decisions as justified. You may still disagree, but you do so with an understanding perspective.
Our judgment is based on perception.
God's judgment is based on perfection.
God wants a relationship with us, thus by that very definition, it is something that must be worked at. And for those whose desire to have a relationship with Him, like any other relationship, the understanding of His person will be gradual and progressive.

I am college educated in World Religions, their impact on culture, history, blah blah blah and basically, what I'm trying to say is, I ain't no dummy and the decision i have arrived at regarding my faith is truly an informed, well researched, thought out and resolute choice, and for all intents and purposes, I consider myself a Christian.
A Christian can be defined as:

For all intents and purposes, "We" are "You."
However, “We” have asked for and believe that “We” are forgiven.
After all, it’s free and it is available to anyone.
Collectively, we are all His by design, but ultimately "We" are His by personal choice.
"We" are to strive to represent Christ, but sometimes "We" don't.
Sometimes “We,” in our effort to be the hands, eyes, ears, voice---the "body" of Christ, fail miserably, incurring the scorn, ridicule and judgment of others, including other “We’s”.

One thing I say often, is that to most, perception is reality, and for many of us, that reality will turn out to be an illusion. Only once it’s all said and done, will any of us know those of whom were very, very right and those of whom were very, very wrong.
So in the meantime, I will do my best to wash more feet.

posted on Jul, 27 2010 @ 04:40 PM
If you are one who is inclined to believe in a "karmic reward system" and/or the idea of heaven and hell, or any version thereof, one of the things that separates Christianity from many other religions is that you don't necessarily have to be "good" to end up good.
Christianity is a "just" religion, but it is not necessarily a "fair" religion.

Jesus taught that goodness is not even a requirement to enter heaven, only belief and forgiveness.
The day that Jesus died, the criminal that was hanging in agony next to Him, was assured that he would join Jesus in paradise. Why? Simply because he called Him Lord, and believed in Him.
Jesus already knew the crimes this man had committed, but the simple act of asking Jesus to remember him when He entered His kingdom spoke volumes.
For starters, the criminal acknowledged that Jesus was indeed Lord. Secondly, when he asked Jesus to remember him, he (knowingly or unknowingly) humbled himself in spite of his wrong-doings.

Now, how fair was it for that criminal to end up in the same place as some poor, decrepit, meek, little widowed granny who had been following Jesus throughout His entire ministry and died that same day they did? Not very.

If not for grace I would be completely useless. I've made some of the most ignorant-ass choices to be made, and I was prob'ly making some of 'em when some decrepit, little, widowed granny was taking her last breath believing Jesus was by her side. How fair is it for me to go where she went? Not very. But, THANK GOD for grace because now she'll probably be the first person I see on the other side waiting to knock me up-side the head before giving me a welcome hug.

posted on Jul, 27 2010 @ 05:20 PM
This is quite ironic maybe, Niagra Falls Bibal Church has a series by Pastor Billy Cronse called "Will The Real Church Please Stand can actually watch it all on Youtube..

Its true many people can be decieving.. Saying they are Christians with their words but then acting with evil

posted on Jul, 28 2010 @ 04:30 AM
Re: General answer to WashMoreFeet

Thanks for your answering post. A pleasure to read.

A bit selfbiographical info to establish a communication platform (enabling to cut out the superfluous). Believe we have similar educational background and some parallels in mindset.

College-equalent in hard science. University: Psychology, social sciences and some comparative religion. Later freelance cottage industry 'philosopher' with the aim of a TOE (theory of everything). A few professional craftsman's educations. Ecological farmer...... etc. (there's a reason for all this changing activity, will be apparent later).

Keywords for abstraction and existential tools: Structuralism (everything's interconnectedness), epistemology (logic, general semantics, empiricism, pragmatics), cosmogony, cosmology, integration.

Been at it for almost 50 years, feel like I've heard most of the arguments for and against, so please apologize, if I start to 'lecture', it's a bad habit. And hope we can agree to disagree in a friendly and civilized way.

As I indicated in an earlier post on this thread, the most likely pivotpoint on the present subject is an epistemological approach. Why do people choose to attach themself to any specific ideology, and to stay with the topic of this thread, why any specific version of all the christian options. (No questionmark, was retoric).

And as also said before, it isn't enough just to present some secondhand, predigested 'answer' from some 'authority'. HOW such answers are arrived at, is as important as the answers themselves. Anybody can make some wild postulate, but it certainly needs some justification, one way or another. As a psychological/emotional straw: "It's nice to belong somewhere together with other people, and I'm happy to be in a cosensus group". For the advanced seeker of truth or reality: More complex, wellhoned tools.

Here's my suggestion: The universe (as we presently experience it) exists through and as a set of opposed polarities, ever growing in complexity. One part exists because of some other parts existing. And vice versa. A human being is a miniature universe, we also have all these polarities in us (at the human level a physical body, emotions and intellect and as secondary manifestations all our needs, drives, abstractions etc).

In the greater universe two ways of interaction between 'parts' are clearly discernible: Predation and symbiosis (the old testament is basically recommending predation, the gospels symbiosis). But still: What has that to do with the price of tea (i.e. 'real' christianity)? Look at it this way....

A human being can consider her/himself in potential possession of tools for having greater understanding/wisdom. And my model suggests that inner symbiosis, inner integration, is the first step. If such a state can be acchieved (it isn't easy), there's no need for picking any specific part of our being as THE part, from which we choose. According to my book, there's no real conflict between any of our parts, and none have a greater existential value than any other. To choose e.g. faith over intellect (or the other way round) is to to submit to an inner hierachy. And eventually all hierachies will become predatory, and all our time and energy will be spent uselessly on this.

Well, I could drone on, but I'm afraid it would make the few remaining readers go to sleep. If there ever will be a continuation on this here, it will be less abstract.

I'll just finish this post with a Reader' Digest version of a defense for symbiosis. The somewhat overused: The totality is greater than the sum of the parts. Maybe the human totality really has a potential for reality.

posted on Jul, 28 2010 @ 04:39 AM
Re: Specific answer to WashMoreFeet

Tried to meet you, where I believe, you really are. My bad, if effort is failure. If interest, I can later relate to more tangible subjects as karma, doctrine, methodology etc.etc.

Best wishes

posted on Jul, 28 2010 @ 02:48 PM
reply to post by WashMoreFeet

.....despite what you say about Christianity, Islam, Judism, Hinduism, Bhuddism.... What about people who believed Zeus in ancient Greece? They have just as much right to their beliefs as any other abrahamic religion, because they all share something in common;

they claim there is a God based on a book that claims to reveal the God as the bestower of perfect knowledge, as if social values in the scriptures are balanced and reasoned with. Homosexuals be killed, women be stoned, fixed fabrics? no no.

Where is the evidence there is even a God who has desires of our life? He has never been, currently isn't, and never will be anywhere to be seen or heard so why do we care, let alone conform to out-of-date social values and fantasies about beings above the skys and in the heavens.

Pick a religion, and expect hell as a matter of chance, deductive logic. Obviously i don't believe in any creator but if i did i would have to ask myself, am i following the correct and true God?

[edit on 28/7/10 by awake_and_aware]

posted on Jul, 28 2010 @ 04:05 PM
Well the Real Christians can't stand up to be perfectly honest. It would go against the very nature of the path and one of Christ instructions to not judge. When in the world you run across those you would label a False christian you have the right to ascertain whether their path or beliefs are correct for you or not, but that is about the limit of it.

Is it disheartening to see the way religion is twisted and perverted into serving some peoples social and economic agenda?

Certainly it is but my faith is in God and he will deal with them in his own way and on his own terms. We simply do not know his purpose in allowing it to happen, and since we do not know that vital piece of information how could we possibly know it isn't part of the design?

One of the biggest issues in my faith is when I look on my recent past I often wonder why have I had to suffer? Certainly I am no where near the worst offender yet oftentimes it seems if I step one toe out of line I get the punishment of the ages. Yet when I look around and see people that have went so far over the line they can't even see it anymore they get rewarded for it in some of the most absurdly odd and miraculous ways.

It is not an easy thing to accept, but its a part of learning humility. Understanding that the purpose of what the world looks like is not ours to know right now. The only thing that should matter to any of us is what did you do to help ease that suffering today?

posted on Jul, 28 2010 @ 10:00 PM

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
.....despite what you say about Christianity, Islam, Judism, Hinduism, Bhuddism.... What about people who believed Zeus in ancient Greece? They have just as much right to their beliefs as any other abrahamic religion, because they all share something in common;

They have just as much right to their beliefs as any other religion period. Regardless of any shared or unshared tenet or idea.

they claim there is a God based on a book that claims to reveal the God as the bestower of perfect knowledge, as if social values in the scriptures are balanced and reasoned with. Homosexuals be killed, women be stoned, fixed fabrics? no no.

When you say "they," if you mean Abrahmic religions, I'm not aware of God making any promises to bestow knowledge of anything other than Himself.
Social values in the scriptures are only balanced insomuch as they are personally relative.
I'm not quite sure I understand the comment about homosexuality and women. Nonetheless, not only did Jesus save a woman from stoning, but He was almost stoned to death Himself.

Where is the evidence there is even a God who has desires of our life?

Everywhere and nowhere. It depends on who's looking and why. Some people look at a sunset as profound evidence of our Creator and His affection. Some people have those same epiphanic moments making eye contact with their children, or even while considering an answer to some mundane childish question such as, "Do snails have tongues?"
Some of the people who ask for evidence, aren't really even looking. They're just asking.
Some people are asking for evidence hoping that they won't find any.
Although it's become a cheesy cliche'-- "you will seek Me and find Me when you seek with all your heart" --it still rings true.

so why do we care, let alone conform to out-of-date social values and fantasies about beings above the skys and in the heavens.

Conforming to current social values is still conformity. If you live anywhere near other human beings, you will be conforming to some sort of social values. Besides, God wants a relationship, not a slave.
In any close relationship, you will inevitably begin to naturally adopt similar values.
I suppose for those who see Christianity as a fantasy, then they most likely wouldn't care in the first place, rendering the whole question moot.

Obviously i don't believe in any creator but if i did i would have to ask myself, am i following the correct and true God?

I believe in a Creator and I've asked myself that same question on more than one occasion. And the answer I have found continues to ring true. However, we are responsible for working out our own salvation so trying to cram it down anyone else's throat will serve no productive purpose, but quite the opposite. Some people confuse "working out their own salvation" with "trying to save themselves." Saving yourself is an effort in futility and is usually accompanied by some form of abuse-- alcohol, sex, work, money, blah blah blah-- along with an equally abusive dose of denial.
Working out your own salvation can't be done all by yourself.

posted on Jul, 28 2010 @ 10:36 PM
washmorefeet, very wise post style. and modest.

i like that.

i think God commanded stoning, because of the severity of the sin, in which purgatory didn't exist because the new sacrafice didn't at that point.

so they had to do penance, be it very scary to think about, to cancel out their sins. stoning doesn't exist anymore though. nonetheless, most deaths hurt nomatter what happens.

there is a reason God does everything. Everything will be explained after death.

posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 04:45 AM
Re: JesusisTruth

Are you aware of, or have you conveniently 'forgotten' that, not long time ago in a historical perspective, green eyes and red hair were a 'sure' sign of association with your christian devil (and consequently led to being tortured, raped and burned).

Whereas WashMoreFeet intelligently and tolerantly manifests her live-and-let-live gospel-oriented christianity (which is NO problem with me, no matter how bizzare I find the doctrines involved), leading to no witch-hunts of redhaired,.... on the other hand seem to have a rather confused attitude to your own religion, hinting at 'they had it coming'. Who will be your next target victims; intellectuals like me, people with big ears......? You give lipservice to the gospels, but preach old-testament intolerance.

So you're either

1/ So ignorant of your religion, that it's embarrasing. But let me inform you (or refresh your memory): The old testament (apart from the weird doctrines) starts with commanding genocide, racism, sexicism, slavery and sexual abuse. At the individual level the patriarchs of the ruling family were on and off alcoholics, committing incest, selling or giving away their female relatives for sexual use and generally being rather shady in their deals in- or outside the family.

or you are

2/ A manipulator, who in the traditonal way of obsessive missionary christians, pick, choose, twist and include/exclude whatever is convenient in the situation.

Whatever my personal shortcomings are otherwise, I at least pride myself in being honest and reliable ("let a yes be a yes......"), and I could recommend you to do the same. If all 'christians' were honest enough to openly declare their intolerance and selfproclaimed right to interfere with other peoples' lives, anyone picking up the first stone to kill e.g. a homosexual or a redhead (or even suggesting it), would in an enlightened, liberal society be taken away by kind professionals and treated for their obvious psychological ailments. Getting better, than they would give.

My girlfriend is a staunch gospel-christian; reliable, honest, trustworthy, generous and helpful (guess WashMoreFeet is of the same ilk), but individuals like you, JesusisTruth, just gives 'christianity' a bad name.....destroying the good work of the gospel-christians and help to make your kind of 'christianity' the (fortunately) dwindling religion it is. Sure you applaud WahMoreFeet, but on the other hand homosexuality is a 'severe sin' according to your post (then start by stoning a considerable part of christian clergy).

You are sanctimoniously leaving judgement and the 'explanation of everything' to god after slaughtering or harassing innocent people. But who are spreading the messages of intolerance, and who 'are picking up the stones' in this world?

[edit on 29-7-2010 by bogomil]

posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 08:48 AM

Originally posted by soleprobe

Then you have the Lord, who was very much alone in the world and He too was not only a man of God but also God in the Flesh. He too was obedient to God the Father and His obedience separated himself from the world eventually dying alone on the cross as a man of God and God in the Flesh.

There have never been very many elect of God, why do people think that today in such a time of darkness that it would be any different?

By His death and Resurrection, The Lord changed the work of the Spirit. Whilst I agree that the Elect are isolated from others, even those who surround them or those they love, Christ gave the Spirit as a gift for all humanity.

posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 11:03 AM
Re: Teapot

I see, we are back to the misconception, that this forum is a pulpit to preach from. Then I will take the attitude, that I also skip the communication part and start as a one-way agitator, for now by insisting that unsupported doctrine-spreading is baaaaad. I will illustrate this by analyzing two of the fundamental christian doctrines: 'Original sin' and 'divine grace' (manifested by redemption through J.C.)

"And there was war in heaven....and a third of the angels were cast out".

The average 'christian' is maybe not familiar with the nature of angels, the reason for the heavenly war etc.

So following information is taken from judeo-christian sources:

Angels are supposed to be without free will, as opposed to humans, who DO have free will. The war started, because the angels refused to bow to humans and accept humans as being more 'godlike' than angels (because of human possession of free will).

Whereafter a third of the supposed docile, will-less angels nonetheless made the drastic decision to revolt (how you can make such a decision without free will is beyond me).

Probably 'later' (the bible isn't quite clear on the chronological order of events) humans, who DO have free will, used said free will to eat from the tree of knowledge (I can infer, that the ban on knowledge was to keep us dumb).

It can be postulated, that 'one of the fallen angels tempted wo/man to USE free will', but to cut it short: Eve (being a woman and therefore naturally expected to take the blame) had the free will to decide, if she could use free will or not, and being too dumb originally (not having acchieved 'knowledge' at this moment) probably couldn't understand the finer points of this double-bind situation. (I don't understand it either, and I'm an experienced, sinful seeker of knowledge).

So 'original sin' is a totally meaningless or uncomprehensible concept. But it comes....been waiting for it. You also hear it? Ofcourse: GOD'S MYSTERIOUS WAYS. How relieving it is to be on safe ground again, having everything explained in a clear and rational way.

Without 'original sin' there's ofcourse no need for redemption, so obviously Jesus died for no purpose at all, and all this cosmic credit card business with unlimited credit for bad behaviour is a scam.

The option of 'original sin' being disobedience, I can take up later on on suggestion, with a comparative study of nazi, Maoist, Stalinist and christian divine/mundane hierachy. You just have to say please, and I'll be there like a shot.

(PS I'm beginning to enjoy this. Give me half a chance, and I'll start on christian theology, history, psycho-sociology, ethics and what have you).

posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Jovi1
Well the Real Christians can't stand up to be perfectly honest. It would go against the very nature of the path and one of Christ instructions to not judge.

Oh wait, you accept the moral code of the bible therefore you judge with prejiduce, you can't help it. If you don't "judge" a homosexual then you can't call yourself a true follow of this damn anti-social hocus pocus that is enslaving man, whether he knows it or not.

posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 12:23 PM
bogomil. wth are you talking about?

1/ witch hunts are evil. God never commanded that. we have had 40 some antipopes in our churches history which were removed.

2. I don't kill bugs. i love ALL creatures and don't have that mindset you just bestowed upon me, soprt of like a judgement. isn't that interestig.

3. yea so what i believe homosexualness is wrong like God said it/s wrong. does it mean i hate the indiviidual? hell no. i pray for them to change and if they don't then Gods the judger not me.

4. your gf is a christian. good. then she should believe homosexualness is wrong too, gods followers aint allowed to pick and chose what they want to believe because it offends other. (tuff)

coming at me all strong for no reason. those things in the OT happened because tribes would bait the isrealites into sin, so god allowed them to become punished. you judge god because of a few sentences in a book which you misinterpret to your own destuction.

the same god that said love your enemies. obviusly the events in the ot, since god isn't stupid enough to contradict himself, are the doings of a god who read human hearts back then which you don't.

" on the other hand seem to have a rather confused attitude to your own religion, hinting at 'they had it coming'. Who will be your next target victims; intellectuals like me, people with big ears......? You give lipservice to the gospels, but preach old-testament intolerance. "

no my next target are people who place targets on others, like lets say, YOU.

i got big ass ears, so im fine with that, and, i love intellectuals. I didn't hint that they had it coming. God did. did i write the bible?

like i said, i don't hurt bugs let alone humans or even consider. see such is the mindset that antichrist will use against us in the end times when he comes.

i know both sides because i never used to be a believer. so don't act like you know me homeskillet. joke.


[edit on 29-7-2010 by JesusisTruth]

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