Will The REAL Christians Please Stand Up?

Originally posted by bogomil

...how you can make such a decision without free will is beyond me.

That being the point we all stumble on; understanding the mind of God or the working of the Spirit is beyond humanity.

(PS I'm beginning to enjoy this. Give me half a chance, and I'll start on christian theology, history, psycho-sociology, ethics and what have you).

To what end? Do you imagine that all who hold faith are dumb? Do you think you will persuade any to question their own understanding of their own experiences that brought them to faith?

All too often I read or hear the non-believer tell me that I am brainwashed or that I have blindly believed something just because I read about it! Or indeed, that as I do not hold the same view as the non-believer, I must therefore be mentally defective!

Even Descarte did not discount the possibility or God! Even Darwin acknowledged that his understanding of the natural world could not deny the possibility of God!

I look forward to your anti Christian polemic in a Thread asking 'Real Christians to stand up'! Or will you start a new one?

Re: JesusisTruth

I have some very reasonable questions to ask you: Have you actually read the bible? Do you understand and agree with all you read? Do you accept the bible as a whole, and in that case are you aware, that you as a active or passive supporter of it, are co- responsible for the abominable things commanded by its authority.

Your post: "1/ witch hunts are evil. God never commanded that. we have had 40 some antipopes in our churches history which were removed."

Exodus 22:18: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"


Your post: "2. I don't kill bugs. i love ALL creatures and don't have that mindset you just bestowed upon me, soprt of like a judgement. isn't that interestig."

I hope, you also are a vegetarian (to be a christian), as genesis 1:29 clearly says, what food mankind shall eat, and meat is not amongst the options.

To the later part of this your citation I can answer, that christianity, since its rise to power, has suppressed, persecuted, tortured and killed endlessly. Ofcourse not on the christians' own initiative or authority, only 'because the bible told them to'.

It's a bit fascinating for me to observe, that after centuries of christian intolerance and atrocities, christians start whining: "Why are you picking at us" as soon as they are exposed to opposition. Sure, I am judgemental, so I can live my life in peace without all the pushing, propaganda and invasion christians love to force on everyone.


Your post: "3. yea so what i believe homosexualness is wrong like God said it/s wrong. does it mean i hate the indiviidual? hell no. i pray for them to change and if they don't then Gods the judger not me."

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man has sex with another man, kill them both".
It seems, that you like most christians are choosing, picking, editing and ignoring, what doesn't suit you, as I guess, you aren't killing homosexuals in spite of this command. So you intend to propagate christinity according to your own 'revisionistic' whims. Hardly very honest.


Your post: " 4. your gf is a christian. good. then she should believe homosexualness is wrong too, gods followers aint allowed to pick and chose what they want to believe because it offends other. (tuff)"

Her answer is unprintable, but my own comment is, that I doubt, that you are in the position of telling other christians how to read the bible.


Your post: "coming at me all strong for no reason. those things in the OT happened because tribes would bait the isrealites into sin, so god allowed them to become punished. you judge god because of a few sentences in a book which you misinterpret to your own destuction."

Deuteronomy 13:13-15 In which the 'sins' of various tribes are, that they refused to acknowledge the hebrew religion, and consequently Yahve commands them exterminated. Including women and children. That's the old testament in a nutshell. Judeo-christian total dominance or violence and destruction. Your efforts of minimizing and sugarcoating this insane brutality is sad, as anyone can read a bible and see, what it really says.

PS I'm neither an atheist or a religionist, only relatively certain of non-mundane existense levels.

Re: Teapot

Your citation:

"That being the point we all stumble on; understanding the mind of God or the working of the Spirit is beyond humanity".

As you can see, I anticipated this one: 'The mysterious ways of god'. I know, that christians aren't keen on logic, but try this one. The bible is self-confirming in a circular way. Nothing outside it supports many (if any) of its claims. The bible has also quite a few selfcontradictions, inaccuracies and is heavily edited as a propaganda tool for social engineering.

When christians are confronted with such critcism, the 'mysteriousity' is waved like a magical wand. It 'explains' all bible shortcomings. But it doesn't explain anything at all, when it comes to the point. 'Mysteriousity' is just a smokescreen to hide the bad quality and the brutality of the bible and can actually be used as a defense for practically any crackpot idea: "You're just too dumb to understand this".


Your citation: "To what end? Do you imagine that all who hold faith are dumb? Do you think you will persuade any to question their own understanding of their own experiences that brought them to faith?"

To the end, that if we could stop all monopolizing and invasive missionaries, mankind would have a chance to live in peace. Christians are like grasshoppers sometimes, everywhere, messing with everything not their business and making noise out of proportion to their dwindling numbers. As to all christians being dumb or brainwashed, I would rather not answer. I try to keep at least some decency in my posts.

I'm absolutely not trying to 'save' anybody from or to anything on a faith-basis, that would be a waste of my time.

Your citation: "Even Descarte did not discount the possibility or God! Even Darwin acknowledged that his understanding of the natural world could not deny the possibility of God!"

Is this your idea of logic? It doesn't 'prove' anything one way or another. And in any case I'm very far from being an atheist. It's just self-righteous, one-way-communication and intolerant preachers and missionaries I can't stand.

Please notice, that I have respect and a high opinion of WashMoreFeet, though I don't share her christian doctrines.

There is nothing in the bible that states that anyone has to become a Christian to be saved. In fact many understand the disciples never had any formal "name" for themselves. They were called Christians by the Romans who occupied Antioch Greece. It was a name meant as offense and ridicule.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.


Not everyone who calls him Lord, Lord, as he says, will be saved but only, "ONLY those who obey my Father". Obeying the father is what makes you a son of God and not calling yourself or each other Christians.

What the Lord says is "come out of her my children"

Originally posted by bogomil
Re: Teapot

Your citation:

"That being the point we all stumble on; understanding the mind of God or the working of the Spirit is beyond humanity".

As you can see, I anticipated this one: 'The mysterious ways of god'. I know, that christians aren't keen on logic, but try this one. The bible is self-confirming in a circular way.

Do Christians believe this James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.

Originally posted by The Riley Family
Obeying the father is what makes you a son of God and not calling yourself or each other Christians.

exactly... why would a son of God want to wear a label invented by heathens, who worshiped gods created by demons, and worn by George Bush?

Re: the Riley family

Your cit: "Do Christians believe this James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him."

I'm afraid, that this is one of those PR tricks, on par with: Demons tremble if they hear the name of Jesus.

But if it is true (which I doubt very much), it should be easy to control. After first defining 'wisdom' rather precisely, pick 100 persons known for their lack of wisdom (shouldn't be difficult to find in the christian right) and let them pray for wisdom.

Insofar the rest of us pray, we're praying for them to acchieve wisdom all the time anyway, but maybe they have to join themselves to make it function.

Then let a board of neutral investigators control the outcome (as christians aren't known generally for objectivity). Maybe you can even support christianity this way.

WHAT a fairytale!



[edit on 30-7-2010 by bogomil]

reply to post by bogomil


Oh dear! Bring on the Logic Stick! Logic is not the highest human faculty.

I do not recall mentioning the Bible in my previous post. I referred to personal experience. Experiences that for me, revealed that God is REAL and opened an awareness that enabled me to smell the colour of sound texture and taste.

Earth-bound human perspective is LIMITED and you don't have to be a Christian or have heard of the Bible to understand that!

So, if your posting in this Thread is not to dissuade the believer (or the undecided), is it just to beat them with your logic stick?

Re Teapot:

You were the one bringing Descartes into it, thereby introducing a train of logic.

In any case I will, for your benefit, repeat some from a former post of mine (I'm not sarcastic. I don't expect people to remember and treat my words as pearls of wisdom). I there suggested an epistemological approach, where an integrated totality of human potential faculties is far better for acquiring understanding/wisdom than using any specific single facet. I'm not black/white, logic/not-logic.

And I'm very aware of the shortcomings of human understanding/wisdom, but I do not find, that this justifies grasping at straws in form of mediocre tools or tunnel-realities, because uncertainty can be dangerous for your peace of mind.

That I generalized you and your christianity is not proper, but considering that 'christianity' has 2000 official versions, it's a bit difficult to keep track of all the individual versions also.

But I'm ofcourse willing to relate to your personal experience, and I consider experience and pragmatism as far more valuable than blind, doctrinal faith.

To this I must add, that I've had extensive 'paranormal' (or whatever) experiences myself. Some of them with strong christian elements involved, and momentarily disregarding the possibility that my mind just blows its fuses occasionally, I'm very wary of drawing premature conclusions. These beings, energies and phenomena I experienced could be demons, aliens, hyperdimensional entities, demi/semi 'gods' or just something my limited perception and conception apparatus translated into something familiar.

Exchanging experiences though, can never be a bad thing. But please, for the sake of both of us, don't push your conclusions, and I will meet you politely and as fair as I can. You have probably noticed, that my allergy to doctrine and missioning makes me itch, and I get grumpy.

And as I'm a senior citizen, ...as they have it these days...., being grumpy is an almost instinctive reaction. Aliens and such were better in my youth, not like the aliens you meet these days, but I believe my mind to be slipping now... Oh, dearie.

My presence in this thread will continue until public attentionspan runs out, and is motivated by a wish for singleminded agitators to be quiet, so there'll be space for exchanging and possibly pooling broader knowledge.

Its easy and simple....by the fruits of a person we will know them, walk in love and the example of Jesus and knowing this truth, by GRACE thru faith are you saved and not of works unless you would boast and believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave and defeated hell. Yes, we are few and God knows who we are and I know HIS WILL be done no matter what happens, HE loves me unconditionally thru His Own Life so what is it if I love HIM unconditionally with mine? IF Terrorists can DIE for their religion, how much MORE should CHRISTIANS live for theirs? I attend no church but I would LOVE to fellowship with people in the RIGHT ACCORD.

Re: LadyPropag8r

Ofcourse it's easy and simple, and therefore your faith and attitude is a mistake of epic proportions, as you've got about everything as wrong, as it's possible to get it.

There's no scientific proof for any of your postulates, the bible is just a confused fairytale enforced on unwilling mankind for reasons a social engineering, Jesus probably didn't exist and of all religions in known history, christianity is the most brutal in doctrine and deed, killing more innocent people than all other religions together.

That you are an elitist (one of the few select) on top of your misconceptions, doesn't make your opinions more attractive. Your private talks with a non-existing god are psychological in origin.


Welll! Those of you who are familiar with my former posts on this thread, and are in possession of some humour and intelligence, will know, that this is not my style really. And while a few of my opinions manifest in the above (and many not), I this time intentionally chose to use more or less the same propagandistic style and (lack of) argumentation as LadyPropag8r, instead of trying a dialogue (which is impossible with a fanatic).

Bombastic; I'm right because I'm right; and I don't see any need to explain myself, communicate etc.

So I just gave a demonstration of black/white polarization, where the 'arguments' soon will be: "You're stupid"..."no, you're stupid"....."You're supermegastupid..." and finally is, isn't, is, isn't and ending with the implements of the sandbox physically being used for ideological attack or defense. ("My bomb is bigger than your bomb, so there IS a god, eh... Just nod")

Go to a church, a streetcorner or a specialist website, if your want to preach. This place is for communication.

From former experience, I would guess, that LadyPropagator won't turn up again, having delievered her sermon and not risking opposition. POSSIBLY some bible-citations will follow, which I will answer by other bible-citations saying the opposite.

As miracles are an accepted part of christianity and also of my world, I can only hope (I don't pray) for the miracle of a dialogue.

Originally posted by WashMoreFeet

Originally posted by bogomil
Why is YOUR faithbased beliefsystem more correct than other faithbased beliefsystems?

I don't think it's a matter of correctness really. When one person claims correctness over another, only debate will result.
Personally, I feel that my faith is simply true. It is the True result of an earnest, open-minded search. I acknowledge that my search began with a bias toward the tenets of Christianity, but as I worked out my faith I tried on all sorts of religiosity. For me, I didn't feel like I could really come to a truly informed decision unless I explored all my alternatives.

I don't think the religiously indoctrinated understand this very simple fact, There is no evidence for God, none. whatsoever, science has found out many wonders of the universe but still cannot understand God, yet religion seems to understand him very well, HOW?

Its very obvious that there are many religions with many ideas of God, people that believe these gods can abedecate power from this dictator, they can do bad things in his name, and claim them as Good.

Faith is blind, faith is a belief without evidence, if you want to believe some 1500+ fanatasy, far be it from me to stop you, but you are believing without evidence, that is faith, faith is blind. and children should not be forced into such nonsense whether it promotes charity/peace or not, its suspect.

What is worse is that people with these beliefs expect be commended with respect, any other scene like the political scene or a talk about football we could very easy debunk such a silly belief, but religion demands respect, well it doesn't deserve it, at all.

And its dictorial absolutist values should be separated from our society and political correctness should be relaxed.

Atheism is gradually gaining the credibility it deserves and the religiously insane know it.

[edit on 31/7/10 by awake_and_aware]

[edit on 31/7/10 by awake_and_aware]

Re: Awake_and_aware

Hi AAA,

I'm all with you concerning the specific perspective of social context from your latest post (without believing atheism is the final and absolute answer in this matter, but I'm sure, we can work that out later in a meaningful way).

Should the really, really holy guys walking with doG ever get around to toasting you to purify your soul, I will donate money to you for a portable fire-extinguisher of your own choice.

So if you notice an exceptionally high amount of people in white sheets or a very sinister black hanging around your place at 3 in the morning, send me an account-number, where I can put the money.

PS To my knowledge, there's no a single smile or good laugh anywhere in the bible. Does such a word as gloom'idity exist?

Originally posted by bogomil
Re: Awake_and_aware

Hi AAA,

I'm all with you concerning the specific perspective of social context from your latest post (without believing atheism is the final and absolute answer in this matter, but I'm sure, we can work that out later in a meaningful way).

Should the really, really holy guys walking with doG ever get around to toasting you to purify your soul, I will donate money to you for a portable fire-extinguisher of your own choice.

So if you notice an exceptionally high amount of people in white sheets or a very sinister black hanging around your place at 3 in the morning, send me an account-number, where I can put the money.

PS To my knowledge, there's no a single smile or good laugh anywhere in the bible. Does such a word as gloom'idity exist?

Look, i don't want to come across as a fachist dictator, or even suggest atheism as absolutist, far be it from me to impose my beliefs (or lack thereof) onto anyone else, I would never call them a sinner, or a devil man if they wish to believe in supernatural deities without evidence.

I just think its a tragedy that in this day and age, the age of technology and logic, scientific method, evidence, its application to help our lives, that we still have these irrational beliefs distracting us from the truth that is out there, a goal that we can ALL unite together in.

And again, if it gets you through the night believing in this, i'm not going to stop you, but when they don't give our children a chance, they enforce and label them with a religion before they can think, indoctrination, by the time they reach adulthood they're too proud to even consider logic, or the stupidity of some religious concepts.

Some honestly believe the world is less than 4000 years old, and they teach this to our kids, that is a scientific disgrace and they are out by an ignorant margin of error, [it would be like saying the width of USA is less than 10 yards] (Dawkins)

But no, it your right, i'm wrong, this kind of preaching should be respected, taught to our future generations.

PS. I agree with your PS

[edit on 31/7/10 by awake_and_aware]

Re: Awake_and_aware

thanks for your answer. And it's far from my mind to suspect you of totalitarian tendencies.

That I, shortly defined as an agnostic, in a way standing between religionism and atheism, can get along with you without dungthrowing from any of us, should be something to ponder on for the holiest of the holy.

(I'll define what I mean with h.o.t.h. more precisely on request, and at the same time consider the role of passive christianity, probably consisting of decent, nice and agreeable individuals, who just don't want to consider the consequences of their involvement. Surprise me, make such a request.)

But then agnostics and atheists are the same satanic ilk, seen from the inside of the holy bubble, where the inside is white, and the outside black. So maybe it isn't so surprising, we don't start fighting between us, you and I being equally spiritually uninformed and rotten.

As to the exact day of creation, the most recent information I have is from archbishop James Ussher (1581-1656), who declared it to be 4004 B.C., october 23, 9 A.M., disputed to be the 21st instead. But whatever is correct, don't despair; all the geological and astrophysical evidence to the contrary is only there to test christian faith.
And personally I believe, that all this talk of the earth being a globe is a scam by god-less scientists, for reasons of their own.

Be it far from my mind to use the whip of logic, I'm not the one setting and enforcing the rules of this debate. The bubble-insiders are, and I meekly follow them, even into the absurd.

Originally posted by bogomil
Re: Awake_and_aware

thanks for your answer. And it's far from my mind to suspect you of totalitarian tendencies

....

I'm all with you concerning the specific perspective of social context from your latest post (without believing atheism is the final and absolute answer in this matter, but I'm sure, we can work that out later in a meaningful way)

It seems that suspecting me of totalitarian tendencies wasn't so far from your mind, accusing me of acting like the people i accuse... its as if you resent my words when i try to fight against the intolerance, the dictorial preachings, the absolutist values; not by imposing my beliefs on anyone, or using physical violence, but with a clear rationalised argument.

That aside, i'm sure, like you said....we can "work that out later in a meaningful way"



[edit on 31/7/10 by awake_and_aware]

Re: Awake_and_aware

Mine is a european timezone, thus different periods for communication.

I have tried to approach this thread from the utilitarian ethics, which I use in my life.

And I see this as opposed to theist commandments.

Theism mainly originates from a non-integration of the reptile mindset and the growing intellect of primates. When manifesting in the aggressive mode, the reptilian mind (in primates) will dominate the potential of the intellect and eventually emerge as megalomaniac/paranoic, with an obsessive drive for territorial behaviour (expressed through invasive ideology and technological might).

When manifesting in the submissive mode, the reptilian mind will use the intellect to rationalize slave-attitudes.

Alternative options for a reptilian-mind/intellect integration are never considered neither by masters nor slaves.

I have the impression, that you are utilitarian. So I believe, ...agreement.

reply to post by bogomil


Whatever your talking about there, it doesn't change the fact you suggested i was an absolutist, again, thats what i'm fighting against, absolutist archaic social values described in a book and enforced on the people who follow it by some pretend invisible God.....but lets get back to the topic in hand.

Will the REAL Christians please stand up? THe ones who believe in Hellfire, Afterlife, stoning women, slavery, genocide of a race of people, the ones who take all of the 10 commandments literally. and are quite happy to admit that they were pleased Jesus died on a cross in a barbaric way, if it meant him dying for our "sins" whatever they might be.

Please, please stand up if you think homosexuals are evil and wrong, go on stand up, shame yourself, call yourself a follower of this tyranous stupidity.



[edit on 1/8/10 by awake_and_aware]

Originally posted by bogomil
To my knowledge, there's no a single smile or good laugh anywhere in the bible. Does such a word as gloom'idity exist?

There's something in Leviticus about how to check if your clothes are mouldy or not that amused me!

In reference to one of your previous posts, it amazes me that you have had metaphysical experiences and yet seem to find little within the Bible that conveys the universal Truth that the metaphysical exists.

My metaphysical experiences have allowed me to understand that Truth has been given to all the world. Sadly, Christians have a deserved bad rep for attempting to claim monopoly on Truth. There is Truth in the Far Eastern ideological traditions, be they spiritual or temporal as well in Far Western Shamenism et al.

Universal Truth. Through all the Ages, all cultures and traditions, spiritual or metaphysical experience is the stuff of Man and first among the common threads, the metaphysical having something to do with a higher intelligence or divine arbitor who is Graced with Morality.

You said 'sin, whatever that is'. Sin, in relation to metaphysical morality and how that impacts on our material being, is about matter, referred to by some belief systems as being of the third density. It is about imperfection; we are all flawed. None are perfect, none can save themself, none can alone with only the self for company, transcend the material world and experience metaphysical bliss.

I understand your point about absolutes. There are none anywhere that is subject to the mechinations of Man. Only Divine Justice deals in absolutes. I do not see divine justice as vengefulness or any of the dark attributes tradionally ascribed to by Bible detractors but rather as advice that the Universe is made this way (and no, even if I were a quantum physicist, I would not be able to prove why!) and the course of creation is known and fixed within the infinite by the Creator and involves the relationship between the metaphysical and matter.

Ok, my brain hurts!



[edit on 8/8/2010 by teapot]

Im a Christian By Name & Faith.
I don't go to mans church, I TRY to be like my friend & saviour Lord Jesus Christ however I fall very much short.
I drink, I smoke and I try to serve my creator by helping animals and humans when it is presented to me.
Nine years clean to from heroin, speed addiction (For the record I could NOT have achieved that without him so no brainwashing remarks on that one)
To me christianity is NOT a religion, to me it is a life long spiritual journey by learning to overcome negativity, anger, fear, intolerance.....etc


Namaskaram