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How'd all that debris land on top of Shanks crater?

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posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by benoni
 


The only thing you seem to have unwittingly proved is that plane crashes don't necessarily leave great big bits of plane lying around. You've done our work for us.

Your only point of difference between the two situations is that the hole is bigger at Lockerbie. Which is because it was a larger plane.

Stirling work. There's a job going here if you want it.




posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 04:28 AM
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Impact comparasons,

killtown.911review.org...



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 06:40 AM
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reply to post by benoni
 


Wow. You make stuff up:


Shankville shows no evidence of a plane crashing there at all.....except for the small hole in the ground....
!


Oh, but wait a minute....the "ground swallowed the plane" was the official fairytale as I recall....


Then find the stuff you made up hard for you to believe, well I think that is really


Ridiculous....



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by benoni
 


Nope....you should read the full report on PanAm 103. It was not the case that:


...the 747 was blown out of the air at 31000ft, therefore falling to earth in a myriad of small pieces...


Read the report.

So, actually, person who brought up the difference in mass was correct...


...so your "mass" comparison holds no bearing....


...and, I'm sorry, but your statement isn't. Those of us who ARE in the field of aviation tend to pay very close attention to airplane accidents, and their aftermaths. Most of the time (when terrorism isn't involved) it is to study the chains of event that led up to the accident, but in ALL cases the actual damage pattern is examined too. AND no two are ever alike, in every way.

SO...the extra-large crater shown at Lockerbie WAS the result of a very, very large remainder of the airplane, to include the majority of the wing and a great deal of the center fuselage section (MUCH more massive than the UAL 93, as pointed out). Didn't hit the ground (diffent composition of ground, too) in a controlled manner, not in the same way that UAL 93 impacted.

The huge section of PanAm debris that fell (uncontrolled, recall) and hit would have smashed down in any number of attitudes, possibly even flat-smacked the ground. But, NOT straight on forward, presenting the smallest of profiles, as an airplane in forward flight does.

Look at DCDAVECLARK's link to "killtown"...it's inadvertently a good example of what I'm saying. Although, I doubt he intended it to be, for that "source" is particularly biased on the "conspiracy" side....however, they've done us the favour of compiling images that actually refute your, and their, claims...

Also, a kind gentleman recently pointed out a possible comparison that just occured....the recent (yesterday??) crash near Islamabad.

I only took a quick glance, saw one photo, and know very little else, as yet.

Once the details emerge as to all the particulars, we can judge whether it is comparable.
~~~~~

Update on the "Airblue" airline crash in Pakistan. Seems it was a landing accident, controlled flight into terrain type (known as "CFIT") which implies inadvertant, but normal flight profile/speeds on impact. This case, in the landing configuration, gear was down, flaps at an intermediate postion for maneuvering --- so, NOT a high-velocity impact, and therefore not comparable exactly....however, the destruction and debris pattern will be interesting, to see differences/similarities, if any.






[edit on 29 July 2010 by weedwhacker]



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by benoni
The biggest difference between the two planes was the fact that the 747 was blown out of the air at 31000ft, therefore falling to earth in a myriad of small pieces...so your "mass" comparison holds no bearing....

...whereas in Shanksville it hit the ground in one piece....(or so you gullibles believe...) causing a small crater as seen in my photo above.....


The difference is obvious...get with it!!





Ah I get it. A "myraid of small pieces" falling from 31000ft managed to blast a gaping hole in the ground and leveling quite a few houses in the process. WoW!
I cant help but chuckle.
Benoni, thank you for confirming what I have suspected for a long time: that many in the so-called "truther" camp never really do research into a subject. Had you bothered to "turn the page" in looking up the Pan Am flight and bombing, you would haved learned something about that crash. But I can tell all you did was take a quick glance, saw something "interesting" that you'd think would trip up us, and didnt even bother to read the actual story.

Unlike you, I have read and studied the facts on the PanAm flight 103 terrorist attack. And I have read and learned about the aircraft's final moments, from detonation of the bomb, to the impact of the main section containing the wing, center fuselage, and crucially, the main fuel tanks. Thats why it was SO easy to tear through your strawman. And as a final insult, it actually helps strengthen our case about the crater in Shanksville and the debris. Woops!



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by Six Sigma
Wait...what?

That's what AIR CRASH INVESTIGATORS DO! They investigate!

None of them where there and witnessed this alleged crash, so how are they going to be able to tell me more than anyone else how the supposed plane debris landed on the crater after the soil supposedly closed up on the supposed hole supposedly made by a burrowing 757?


Similar crash... similar results... Oh, please point out where you got your information as to how much of the plane ended up in the crater for the flight 1771 crash.

Oh, so most of Flight 1771 buried too? Then why is there so much more shattered debris strewn on the ground than in Shanksville where 95% of the alleged 757 was supposedly recovered?



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
You've got one thing right.

I do find it hard to answer his questions with a straight face.

That's nice, but it looks like you find it hard to just answer my questions since you haven't attempted to answer my OP.



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by Six Sigma
Flight 93 was intact as is hit at a 40 degree angle.

So how come the "filled in hole" crater looks like it was caused from a 90 deg angle?



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 05:29 AM
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Originally posted by ATH911

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
You've got one thing right.

I do find it hard to answer his questions with a straight face.

That's nice, but it looks like you find it hard to just answer my questions since you haven't attempted to answer my OP.


Your OP doesn't even make any sense. Your constant bombarding of this forum with variations of the same thread - basically your incredulity at some picture or other from Shanksville - in the form of meaningless questions that, even if answered, are never satisfactory for you, is becoming frankly tiresome.



posted on Jul, 30 2010 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by ATH911

None of them where there and witnessed this alleged crash, so how are they going to be able to tell me more than anyone else how the supposed plane debris landed on the crater after the soil supposedly closed up on the supposed hole supposedly made by a burrowing 757?


So, instead of me listening to the NTSB, UA, ATF, FBI, and CISM; I should listen to who? YOU? Your obsession with flight 93 has become somewhat unhealthy for you. Your claims are misguided and unfounded.

You were given contact information to several of the people that were there investigating the crash. Why haven't you contacted them yet? Because they weren't there at the time of the crash? That is a pathetic cop-out.

Contact them and ask how they handled the investigation. What steps were taken. You wont because you know that your fantasy will be kaput! Your contribution level will remain idle here at ATS because you wont be able to make up any more flight 93 threads.

You have been shown countless exhibits of physical evidence, several witness statements, and names and contact info for REAL people that were there. You choose to ignore it all away as it ruins your fantasy.

I too am tired of your constant posturing.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 11:40 AM
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UA 93 crashed at a 40 degree angle, while on its back (inverted). The crater at the crash site looks like it was caused by a plane that hit at a 90 degree angle (head on).

The crash site crater looks almost cartoonish. The crash site looks faked.

Do these photos look like they were caused by a plane that impacts at a 40 degree angle, upside down?

Note the lack of debris in the top photo. Also note there is almost no fire damage, yet the grass was quite dry and brown (which can be see in other photos of the site).







posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by The Surgeon
 



UA 93 crashed at a 40 degree angle, while on its back (inverted). The crater at the crash site looks like it was caused by a plane that hit at a 90 degree angle (head on).


Really? You have that much personal experience with airline crash craters in reclaimed strip mines in southwest Pennsylvania?


The crash site crater looks almost cartoonish. The crash site looks faked.


And if I say that I don't think it looks catoonish or fake does that make you wrong and me right?


Do these photos look like they were caused by a plane that impacts at a 40 degree angle, upside down?


No, more like 38.2 degrees and only inverted 179 degrees. Soooo silly.


Note the lack of debris in the top photo.


Note the low resolution and altitude at which the photo was taken.


Also note there is almost no fire damage, yet the grass was quite dry and brown (which can be see in other photos of the site).


ALMOST not fire damage = fire damage!! Proving Flight 93 crashed there.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by Six Sigma

Evidence Summary: 10 Points...Evidence Truthers Ignore!

1) The four hijackers purchased tickets under their own names and boarded the plane. One was randomly selected for and passed additional security screening. Ziad Jarrah was a licensed pilot and had recent training on professional large jet flight simulators. United flight 93 was scheduled to depart at 8:00 am, but left 42 minutes late due to airport traffic. Aboard were 33 passengers, 7 crew members, and 4 hijackers.


I'll just touch up on one of the 10(for now)

Speaking of hijackers, I'm sure we all agree that noone survided that crash. There's no way.

Of the 19 identities assigned by the FBI to the alleged suicide hijackers of the four commandeered jetliners, at least six have been disputed. The FBI's September 14, 2001 press release identifying the suspects included names and, in some cases, other personal details. 1 The FBI's September 27, 2001 press release included color photographs for each of the 19 suspects. 2

Reports
A handful of reports, most from one to two weeks after the attack, identified at least six men living in the middle east whose names -- and in some cases other identifying details -- matched those on the FBI's list.


Saeed Alghamdi
Saeed Alghamdi, a Saudi Airlines pilot, was identified by the FBI of being a hijacker of Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania. Alghamdi was "shocked and furious" to learn this three days after the attack, noting that his name, place of residence, date of birth, and occupation matched those described by the FBI. "You cannot imagine what it is like to be described as a terrorist - and a dead man - when you are innocent and alive," said Alghamdi, who considered legal action against the FBI. 5

Ahmed Al-Nami
Al-Nami was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 93. Al-Nami said: "I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked." 7


1. FBI Press Response, fbi.gov, 9/14/01
2. For Immediate Release, fbi.gov, 9/27/01
5. Revealed: the men with stolen identities, telegraph.co.uk, 9/23/01 [cached]
7. Revealed: the men with stolen ..., 9/23/01


911research.wtc7.net...


6 of the 19 SUICIDE hijackers are still alive... must of jumped off the "sinking ship", probably explainable such as the collapse of the towers or how a passport survived the heat that melted the steel supports. And someone mentioned eye witness reports and someone also mentioned listening to FBI, ATF, etc. Well 1.)there were also witnesses who said they heard and felt explosions in the WTC towers, firemen at that, but those people are not qualified witnesses... and as to FBI and consorts, well lets just say an organization that had a roll in the assasination of a president doesnt fit my definition of being "trustworthy", also you should think for yourself and not let others think for you, but wait, there were FBI agents who warned of arab "pilot" activities at flight schools... funny how these were told to stop investigating and some relocated.

The brain is a terrible thing to waste, and the world is doing a great job at it.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by Aufwachen]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 06:38 AM
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reply to post by Aufwachen
 


So by that logic if I can find a white US male called Tim McVey then the government has lied about executing him?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by Aufwachen
 

Your wasting your time mate, they haven't got the eyes to see the world as you an me! an many others who feel betrayed an im not even American, but if i was id be furious! i wish to God the truth will get out an see those people get what they deserve ! an dont nobody call me anything other than an honest man looking for some honest answers...



[edit on 3-8-2010 by DCDAVECLARKE]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by TrickoftheShade
 


IF it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and smells like a duck then it must be a- cow...

If u use YOUR eyes and read and YOUR brain and think then mabye you'd have YOUR opinion and be human.

READ it again, go to the link if need be, at least 6 Hijackers, not 1 or 2! but wait that could be dangerous, you could actually start seeing the truth.

If the other "Tim McVey" has the same Date and place of birth, visited the same schools had the same jobs, looked like him, and so on and so on, then... yes, I'd say he's still alive.
I mean come on man, they had pictures of the men... wake up and stop believing everything they throw at u.
but wait, i'm wrong. Pearl Harbor was a suprise attack... The Vietnam war started 'cause of an attack on a U.S. patrol boat...
THEY always tell the truth...



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by Aufwachen
 



....wake up and stop believing everything they throw at u.


Ditto.

There's more than one "they" out there. There is a whole cottage industry out there dedicated to the propogation of conspiracies. Books, movies, lectures, websites, etc. produce income and all are dependent on the simple fact that there will always be a given segment of society that is pre-disposed, for one reason or another, to believing that they are the subject of black and nefarious complexity perpetrated by another segment of scoiety - access to which is percieved to have been unfairly denied.

So stop "believing" everything that is thrown at you just because it serves some personel end.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by hooper
 


So just answer me this, Do you thrust your Government with your Life?
Do you think your Government woulden Lie to you or your Family?
Do you think the CIA is doing a good for America?
Do you think the FBI told the Truth the whole Truth an nothing but the Truth about 9-11?
Do you believe we should of gone to War with Iraq an Afghanistan? if your answer is yes then why?



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by Aufwachen
reply to post by TrickoftheShade
 


IF it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and smells like a duck then it must be a- cow...

If u use YOUR eyes and read and YOUR brain and think then mabye you'd have YOUR opinion and be human.

READ it again, go to the link if need be, at least 6 Hijackers, not 1 or 2!


Okay, let's look at your link in a bit more detail.

You seem to think it claims they've found at least six of the hijackers alive and well. It doesn't. What it says is

A handful of reports, most from one to two weeks after the attack, identified at least six men living in the middle east whose names -- and in some cases other identifying details -- matched those on the FBI's list.

A handful of reports - so, not many - identified at least six men. So, not six of the hijackers - six men - with the same names.

And it doesn't even say that these people all had other identifying details, just some of them. The others presumably did only share names.

Go on Facebook. Look up

Saeed Alghamdi

There are over 300 on Facebook alone. Several are probably the same age, height and weight as the one who was involved in 9/11. And that's just on Facebook! Imagine how many men in the whole middle east could be mistaken for Saeed Alghamdi. And that's just one example.

Imagine the furious scrambling for information on the hijackers in the days after 9/11. Imagine the armies of operatives desperately scouring any lead at all. Do you really think it odd that they turned up the odd wrong person with the same name, or put up a wrong picture in their haste? Especially when there are literally thousands of people who share names, occupations, birthdays and basic descriptions with the hijackers?

Any way you look at it, yours is pretty thin evidence. So before you ask me to engage my brain again, maybe you could do me the courtesy of using yours.



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by DCDAVECLARKE
reply to post by hooper
 



So just answer me this, Do you thrust your Government with your Life?


Every time I cross a bridge that was inspected by engineers working for the DOT, how about you? Do you get out of your car and do your own inspection? If not, then you are trusting the Government with your Life! How about fly in a plane? Drink a glass of milk? Take a dose of medicine?


Do you think your Government woulden Lie to you or your Family?


Of course they would, and I expect them to. In fact, I would be disappointed if they didn't. Why? Because, unfortunately there is no way for the government to communicate exclusively with me and not communicate with the people who would seek to do me harm. This is true on a local level with law enforcement and also true on an international level as well. But, you see, I am a grown-up. I understand these things and am able to put them in context and perspective. Also, I am mature enough not to put everyone who draws a paycheck from the goverment into one big amorphous blob, I can make sophisticated distinctions.


Do you think the CIA is doing a good for America?


Yes.


Do you think the FBI told the Truth the whole Truth an nothing but the Truth about 9-11?


Please see above.


Do you believe we should of gone to War with Iraq an Afghanistan? if your answer is yes then why?


Yes, and Iran. Because they were and still are definite substantial threats to America and to Americans. I don't think you have an inkling as to the depth of the irrational hatred for the west and the US in particular that permeates that region of the world. But you can't do anything about the hatred, however, you can assure those that would seek to do us harm motivated by that emotion that their actions will have dire consequences. That may motivate the next generation to change, or it may not. I am not willing to take that big of a chance.






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