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The 'Lost' Tribes of Israel

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posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 10:34 AM
Are the modern day Jews the only descendants of the the ancient nation of Israel? Sometime around 722 B.C. (more than 2, 500 years ago) the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel and many citizens of the southern kingdom of Judah were conquered by the Assyrian Empire and taken into captivity. The vast majority of these Israelites never returned to their former homeland on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean. Where did they go? Who are they now?

There is a large amount of information currently available on this subject, and many conflicting viewpoints, but perhaps the best place to start is with the tribe of Ephraim (Hebrew for "doubly fruitful").

Ephraim was the second born son of Joseph, one of the twelve sons of Jacob/Israel. Ephraim's descendants eventually become so numerous and powerful that the name of their forefather is often synonomous with the northern kindgom of Israel throughout much of the Old Testament. In Genesis ch. 48 he received the greatest blessing of all of Jacob's children and grandchildren.

KJV Genesis 48:17-20
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

What's interesting about verse 48:19 is that "nations" is translated from the Hebrew goyim, which may also be rendered as Gentiles.

Transliterated Un-Accented Genesis 48:19 Wayma'en 'abiyw wayo'mer, Yada`tiy bniy ; yada`tiy!Gam- huw' yihyeh- l`am [*] wgam- huw' yigdal. W'uwlam'achiyw haqaTon yigdal mimenuw wzar`ow yihyeh mlo'- hagowyim.

And multitude is tranlsated from mlo, n.m. what fillls, what makes something full; fullnes, everything:- translated as full [12x], fulness [8], all that is therein [6], fill [2], handful (+3709) [2], multitude [2], etc. (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Hebrew Dictionary Reference #4393)

This is the definition given for "goy", singular of "goyim".

#1471 goy, n.m. people, nation; Gentiles, pagan, heathen, uncultured
(We can see though, by the use of this word in reference to the descendants of Ephraim, son of Joseph, that goyim is not as pejorative as many today believe it to be.)

Just for by way of comparison let's look at the word translated multitude in Genesis 48:16

KJV Genesis 48:16
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

TUA Genesis 48:16 hamal'akhago'el 'otiy mikal- ra` ybarek 'et- han`ariym. Wyiqare'bahem shmiy wshem 'botay 'Abraham w-Yitschaq. Wyidguwlarob bqereb ha'arets.

#7230 rob, n.m. greatness, abundance; multitude

Therefore it is indeed very interesting that mlo is used in Genesis 48:19, especially when we compare it to Romans 11:25.

KJV Genesis 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations [or fulness of Gentiles].

KJV Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Just in case you might think Genesis ch. 48 is an isolated occurence, Yahweh Elohim himself told Jacob the same thing earlier:

KJV Genesis 35:10-11
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation [goy] and a company of nations [goyim] shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 11:19 AM
I have read that there is a lost tribe in Etheopia. There are a group on an island that claim they are guarding the Art of the Cov. I don't think I believe it becouse if it were true, one of the major world powers would have gone in and taken it.

posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 05:33 PM
I believe most modern-day Jews are actually descendants of the Khazars, whose "original" homeland is on the southern steppes of Russia. Ultimately, I suppose anyone who takes up the Jewish faith is "Jewish", but there's a lot of Khazar lineage in most modern-day Zionists..

That said, the Lost Tribe things is really interesting.. I've heard various theories that are supposed to correlate "Britain" w/ the lost tribe of Ephraim, and "America" w/ the lost tribe of Manassah.. not sure what that means.. maybe it's just more voodoo hocus-pocus nonsense, but it's interesting..

The Ethiopian Jews are extremely interesting.. yes, they claim to have the Ark, but if they do it's well hidden. In all Ethiopian Christian services, a replica of the Ark is brought out in the course of the of the ceremony.. so there are literally thousands of copies of the Ark floating around Ethopia.. who knows, maybe one of them is for real???

posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 06:03 PM
Interesting article on the history of Babylon.. talks about how some of the Jews (who were taken to Babylon during the Captivity) remained there until the 1950s(!):

The Iran-Iraq war of 539BC introduced a new order to the Middle East. A great Persian empire ultimately spread from the borders of China to the Bosphorus. For modern Iranians, Cyrus's great victory and the empire are the basis of a national myth. Under Persian protection the Jews returned from Babylonian exile to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem (though many remained in Baghdad until the 1950s). For the Jews, this became a crucial memory that remains alive in modern Israel.

posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 11:22 PM
mongoose -
where did you learn about the possible connection between present-day Jews and the Khazars of russia? I have read something along those same lines, some time ago, but haven't had time to research it yet.

posted on Jun, 19 2004 @ 01:50 AM
Mongoose and Wannabe, here is some information on the link between the Khazar Turks and the modern Jews.

Many of the Ashkenazi (German and Eastern European) Jews are descended from the Khazar Turks who converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages.

Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 650-1016
Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture."

“Khazars, Central Asian History

Related Category: Central Asian History

Khazars[khA´zArz] Pronunciation Key, ancient Turkic people who appeared in Transcaucasia in the 2d cent. A.D. and subsequently settled in the lower Volga region. They emerged as a force in the 7th cent. and rose to great power. The Khazar empire extended (8th–10th cent.) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea to the Urals and as far westward as Kiev. Itil, the Khazar capital in the Volga delta, was a great commercial center. The Khazars conquered the Volga Bulgars and the Crimea, levied tribute from the eastern Slavs, and warred with the Arabs, Persians, and Armenians. Religious tolerance was complete in the Khazar empire, which reached a relatively high degree of civilization. In the 8th cent. the Khazar nobility embraced Judaism, and Cyril and Methodius made some Christian converts among them in the 9th cent. In the 10th cent. the Khazars entered into friendly relations with the Byzantine Empire, which attempted to use them in the struggle against the Arabs. The Khazar empire fell when Sviatoslav, duke of Kiev, defeated its army in 965. The Khazars (or Chazars) are believed by some to have been the ancestors of many East European Jews.”

In case you're not aware, the Jews are currently divided into two major groups, the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim.

Ashkenaz , eponym of a people perhaps localized in Armenia. He was grandson of Japheth. Gen. 10.3. Ashchenaz: 1 Chron. 1.6; Jer. 51.27. In modern times the term Ashkenazim. refers to the German Jews as distinguished from the Sephardim, the Jews of Spain and Portugal. For the history of the Ashkenazim, see Jews.

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2003, Columbia University Press.

For more information about the Sephardim:

posted on Jun, 19 2004 @ 02:24 AM

Originally posted by mongoose
That said, the Lost Tribe things is really interesting.. I've heard various theories that are supposed to correlate "Britain" w/ the lost tribe of Ephraim, and "America" w/ the lost tribe of Manassah.. not sure what that means.. maybe it's just more voodoo hocus-pocus nonsense, but it's interesting..

I'm not saying that everything claimed by those who publish or post information on the Lost Tribes of Israel is true, but I believe there is something more to it than hocus-pocus nonsense.

For instance, something that many people seem to miss when reading the Old Testament is that the Israelites were, in fact, seafarers.

KJV Judges 5:17 Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.

KJV 1 Kings 9:26-28
26 And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Eziongeber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the red sea, in the land of Edom.
27 And Hiram sent in the navy his servants, shipmen that had knowledge of the sea, with the servants of Solomon.
28 And they came to Ophir, and fetched from thence gold, four hundred and twenty talents, and brought it to king Solomon.

KJV 1 Kings 10:11 And the navy also of Hiram [Phoenician], that brought gold from Ophir, brought in from Ophir great plenty of almug trees, and precious stones.

KJV 1 Kings 10:21-22
21 And all king Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold, and all the vessels of the house of the forest of Lebanon were of pure gold; none were of silver: it was nothing accounted of in the days of Solomon.
22 For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.

KJV 1 Kings 22:48-49
48 Jehoshaphat made ships of Tharshish to go to Ophir for gold: but they went not; for the ships were broken at Eziongeber.
49 Then said Ahaziah the son of Ahab unto Jehoshaphat, Let my servants go with thy servants in the ships. But Jehoshaphat would not.

Now, not only did the Israelites not fear the sea, they were also able sailors (often partnering with the Phoenicians of Tyre to the north. The Phoenicians were the most renowned sailors and skilled navigators of the ancient world by the way). In addition to sailing far and wide, the Israelites also established overseas colonies. Cadiz/Gades (of the tribe of Gad) in southern Spain is an example of one. They probably even started doing this while they were still in Egypt, before the envious Pharoahs enslaved them.

Perhaps it is not very well known, but you will find, if you read the Iliad for example, that the Greeks who raided Troy were sometimes referred to as Danaans (Danites).

"On this sceptre Agamemnon was leaning as he addressed the assembly. 'My friends, my Danaan heroes, servants of Ares!' (The Iliad. Homer. Translated by W.H.D. Rouse. Signet Classic, published by New American Library, a divison of Penguin Putnam. New York. 1999. Book II. Pg. 25.) Take another look at Judges 5:17.

Below is a copy of a letter written from Jonathan Maccabeus to the Spartans sometime around the second century B.C. As you read it, keep in mind that Agamemnon was the king of Argos, and his brother, Menelaos, was the king of Sparta.

1 Maccabees 12:5-23 (From the Apochrypha)
5. This is a copy of the letter which Jonathan wrote to the Spartans:
6. "Jonathan the high priest, the senate of the nation, the priests, and the rest of the Jewish people to their brethren the Spartans, greeting.
7. Already in time past a letter was sent to Onias the high priest from Arius, who was king among you, stating that you are our brethren, as the appended copy shows.
8. Onias welcomed the envoy with honor, and received the letter, which contained a clear declaration of alliance and friendship.
9. Therefore, though we have no need of these things, since we have as encouragement the holy books which are in our hands,
10. we have undertaken to send to renew our brotherhood and friendship with you, so that we may not become estranged from you, for considerable time has passed since you sent your letter to us.
11. We therefore remember you constantly on every occasion, both in our feasts and on other appropriate days, at the sacrifices which we offer and in our prayers, as it is right and proper to remember brethren.
12. And we rejoice in your glory.
13. But as for ourselves, many afflictions and many wars have encircled us; the kings round about us have waged war against us.
14. We were unwilling to annoy you and our other allies and friends with these wars,
15. for we have the help which comes from Heaven for our aid; and we were delivered from our enemies and our enemies were humbled.
16. We therefore have chosen Numenius the son of Antiochus and Antipater the son of Jason, and have sent them to Rome to renew our former friendship and alliance with them.
17. We have commanded them to go also to you and greet you and deliver to you this letter from us concerning the renewal of our brotherhood.
18. And now please send us a reply to this."
19. This is a copy of the letter which they sent to Onias:
20. "Arius, king of the Spartans, to Onias the high priest, greeting.
21. It has been found in writing concerning the Spartans and the Jews that they are brethren and are of the family of Abraham.
22. And now that we have learned this, please write us concerning your welfare;
23. we on our part write to you that your cattle and your property belong to us, and ours belong to you. We therefore command that our envoys report to you accordingly."

Check out the Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus Book XII Chapter IV Section 10 and Book XIII Chapter V Section 8 for confirmation of this passage. You can find the writings of Josephus posted on various websites. Just type in "Josephus" into your favorite search engine. If you have any trouble, just send me a U2U.

The Greek myth of Danaus and Aegyptus is also interesting since, as most of us know, the Israelites (including the tribe of Dan) spent around 400 years in Egypt. You can read this story on Wikipedia,, etc.

posted on Jun, 21 2004 @ 11:57 AM
The socalled LOST TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL are probably now extinct, having been mixed into Assyria and Babylon in antiquity

Of the 24 priestly families that were EXILED by the Babylonians (i.e. the Judaeans) in 587 BC, only 4 came back to Palestine

The other several dozen priestly families in the Northern Kingdom (which fell in 722-701 BC) there does not seem to be much of a trace, although modern day Kurds seem to have the "Levetical genetic marker" in their blood stream.

Various other smaller groups of present day Arabic Jews (such as we find in the syunagogues of Yemen) may also be related to these lost tribelets.

But finding all of them now would be a genetic impossibility since the original tribelets, a loose group to start with, would have mixed in witht he local population and even changed their religion away from the old Israelite religions (which bore little resemblance to modern day Rabinninc Judaiesm anyway)

You won't find too many descendants of the LOST TRIBES in Israel today in anything like a pure genetic sense.

Modern day Israelis are ruled by a group of mixed European (non Semitic) Ashkenazi descendants for the most part :Only "Jews" who are descended from the socalled "Sephardim" and from the "Ethiopian Fallashas" would have any tangible blood connexion to the socalled LOST TRIBES and only tentatively at best --------considering 3,000 years of Sefardi and Fallasha miscegenation (interbreeding) with the goyim (non Jews).

In point of fact, over 90% of Modern Israelis are NOT related by blood AT ALL to ANY of the varoius Israelitish clans (whether you count 10 or 12 or 16) that were in existence 3,000 years ago, and any argument supporting such land claims based on race or blood lines is fallacious.

People tend to use the word "Jew" very loosely today, especially in "dumbed down America" and most people do NOT know the origin of the word, nor do they understand that 90% of people who call themselves "Jews" today (some 12 million persons, just a few less than the total number of Kurds in the world) are descended from 9th century AD (non Semitic) Ashkenazim "converts" in present day Kiev (Ukraine) formerly the kingdom of Khazaria---hemmed in as they were with Byzantine Christians fighting to the West and militant Muslims fighting from the East, the King of Khazaria (renamed himwelf Joseph) converted to Judaeism in 780 AD (from solar paganism) because he wanted to steer a "Bava Metzia" ("middle gate") between two warring entities.

For more than 200 years Khazaria was a propsperous "middle man" kingdom in negotiating trade (and war weapons, slaves etc.) between the two warring Empires until "Christian"Moscow, tired of having a middle man selling weapons and materiel to both sides, came swooping down in the year 1003 AD and destroyed Khazaria, sending 1 million NON SEMITIC OFTEN BLUE EYED Jewish converts westward in the direction of present day Lithuania, Poland, Latvia, Hungary, Estonia, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, England and other places in Russia.

Even most Modern Day "Jews" are often under the delusion f that they are somehow blood related to the Israelite clans...and are therefore "chosen by their God (YHWH) " in some magical way.

The physical remnants of the socalled Israelites are called Sephardim (from the Hebrew for Spain: Sefard) and had been wandering abroad since before Rome again destroyed the province of "Palestina" in 136 AD (during the 2nd Revolt against Rome under Shimeon Bar Kosiba ("Bar Kokhba") which also failed.

It is estimated that 900,000 Palestinian born "Israelite descendants" were annhialiated between the two Wars of Rebellion against Rome (AD 70 and AD 136), virtually exterminating any "Israelite" blood-descendants.

One could say that anything closely related to "Israelite blood" in any one group of people today is specious, since their descendants are virtually extinct today---and oddly, the population that shows the GREATEST GENETIC AFFINITY to the ancient "Israelite" blood from which the tribes were originally taken (if you read the modern Genetic Medical journals this year) is....hang on to your hats.....the present day Palestinian population !!

Maybe the modern day Israelis should think about that one (or read some of the latest modern Genetic Research journals now coming out in print!!)

Today, less than 1 Million persons (less than 10% of world Jewry) are comprised of "Sefardi and Fallasha (Ethiopian) Jews" --two groups who might still have some traces of the ancient "semitic" blood traceable back to the Israelites (like all Arabs, descended from Abraham as one of the descendants of "Shem") , have been so intermixed by "breeding with the goyim" for the past 3,000 years, that the "Jew" today is no longer a "race", but mearly a religion.

The modern day Israeli is mostly "non Semitic" if you were to do blood scans and genetic tracing as some have done, to their horror when the results came back. Few of these stories however ever get published without being pulled from the shelves !

And even a full blooded the "Israelite" was also not racial pure. David's grandmother "Ruth" was a Moabitess... and the Torah specifically states in words placed into the Mouth of Moses (in late fake-Mosaic Hebrew however) :


The tribal clan chief ("king") David was a member of this mixed blood confederation of Judah, with all of his own Moabite blood mixed in, and thus according to the torah could not even call himself an Israelite !!

Digging further back into the oral clan history, Abraham purportedly said,

A Wandering Syrian ready to starve was my Father:
a Cannanite was my mother (i.e. two gentile, non Jewish nations)

testifying that the whole nation "of Israel" was comprised of foreign blood elements, and "there was nothing special about their bloodline" despite all the racist rhetoric you hear from "Jewish" and "non Jewish" Zionists today...

Curiously, name of the (Tribes of) "Judah" does not even occur in the oldest writings in the Old Testament (e.g. the Song of Deborah) but seems to have been a large "fake tribe" which was later made up of smaller, less politically powerful tribelets.

And its "fake" origin is also "made up" in the Bible to account for its political dominance after the fall of the 10 northern tribes in 721-701 BC when Assyria attacked Palestine and annexed the Northern Kingdom.

Read WHO WROTE THE BIBLE by Elliot Friedman for a layman's backgrounder on the subject of: HISTORY CAN BE MADE UP...IF YOU KNOW HOW...

The socalled "Old Testament" was not even set into recogniseable form until the time of Ezra in 480 BC long after the events it purports to relate, and long after the "tribal confederation" of Yehudah had established dominance in Palestine (they survived the Assyrian attacks to continue on politically until 587 BC).

The "Winners" generally end up writing the "history" as "history" shows...and they usually wind up by writing history in "their favour.."

Now, take a look at the very word : "Judah" which derives etymologically from the Heb. "Yehudah" (the legendary "4th son of Yakkov") but actually refers to MORE THAN ONE TRIBELET in ancient times: the name derives from "Yad" meaning "hand" and the cognate "Yahad" meaning "tribal joining of hands" i.e. an amphyctiony or tribal "confederation".

The Greek word "Iudaioi" ("judeans") from which we derive "Jew" from today, is the translated equivalent of Yehudah---i.e. the many tiny unrelated tribelets that comprised Yehudah.

Even Michah 5:2 says "Bethlechem-Ephratha, you who are not the least among all the tribelets ("clans") of Judah... " so the tribe of Judah was not ONE tribe but many. And Zechariah and others in the OT refer to the "clans" of Yehudah.


Kalebites (in the territory around Hebron; Josh. 14:13-15; Judg. 1:20), Kenites (in the area around Arad; Judg. 1:16), Kennizzites (in the environs of Debir; Josh. 15:15-19; Judg. 1:11-15), Jerahmeelites, and Othnielites.


If you read the socalled SONG OF DEBORAH in Judges chapter 5:14-19 you will notice something rather strange: THE TRIBE OF JUDAH (YEHUDAH) IS COMPLETELY MISSING FROM THE LIST OF 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL! (so is the tribe of Gad and the tribe of Levi)

The tribes mentioned are: Benjamin, Issachar, Zebulun, Reuben, Asher, Dan, Naphtali, & Ephraim---FOLLOWED BY FOUR UNKNOWN TRIBES (presumably to keep the astrological number 12 in tact):

9. GILEAD (not one of the "big" 12 in the Torah, unless related to GAD)
10. MACHIR ( ??)
11. BARAK (??)
12. MEROZ (??)

So much for the so called 12 Tribes.

If you read the Book of Revelation chapter 12 (written during the 1st Jewish Revolt against Rome in AD 67-68) you'll notice Manasseh mentioned as a full tribe and the Tribe of DAN completely missing altogether...

It is clear the ancient writers did not have a clear idea of their true history, but were trying to force the magic number 12 on the tradition by whatever means necessary (12 being astrologically signficant, and related to an ancient prophecy that Abraham's sons would be as the Constellations of Heaven...notice how Ishmael--legendary father of the Arabs--- also has 12 sons...)

Even as far back as the time of David on, the confederation of Judah had incorporated considerable numbers of gentile, non-Israelites, leading to an alternation between pro-Canaanite, non-Yahwist religious policies on the part of some kings and the reversal of such policies in periodic religious reforms.

Adding to that was the fact that Palestine had been run over so many times by older, larger, more sophisticated Gentile nations (Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Syria, Rome) whose soldiers and inhabiants were imported into the land and married into the local population, further eroding any sense of tribal unity based on bloodline.

Witness the socalled Samaritan Schism in the north after 420 BC. which was based on blood differences as well as ritual separateness (i.e. Mount Gerazim verses Mount Moriah, see the Gospel of John chapter 3)

Here is what the "Jewish Encyclopaedia" has to say on the subject (as a rounded overview from their own publishers)

"It is a common assumption, ineradicable even in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, that "Jews" today constitute a "race, a homogeneous entity" that is easily should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they once occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of non semitic communities. . . .Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms.

(Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

So not only is the ancient Israelite ampohyctionies non-identifiable with any accuracy, even more so are those who call themselves their "descendants" and therfore have some kind of "divine right" to the land of Israel.

Whatever National Borders the Community of Nations gave to the Nation of Israel in 1948 (following an understandable worldwide sympathy of the after effects of the German Holocaust) should NEVER be regarded as somethning that has anything to do with made up Divine Promises in Israelite folklore (i.e. the so called "bible"--).

Modern day illegal settlement building and other forms of illegal and immoral land-grabbing in "Israel" (e.g. permanently moving perimeter walls deeper and deeper into the West Bank on some phony notion of national security) with the lame excuse that they are doing this because "GOD gave us this land" purportedly based on some phony racial links to the "Israelites" (who made up most of their "glorious and divine" history 1000 years after the events they relate---to judge from the evidence of modern archaelogy) has no place in the modern world and will only perpetuate the slaughter of innocent lives which is now seemingly out of control in the region.

posted on Jun, 22 2004 @ 01:21 AM
First, the sugar:

Originally posted by Amadeus
In point of fact, over 90% of Modern Israelis are NOT related by blood AT ALL to ANY of the varoius Israelitish clans (whether you count 10 or 12 or 16) that were in existence 3,000 years ago, and any argument supporting such land claims based on race or blood lines is fallacious.

Then the poison:

Originally posted by Amadeus
Curiously, name of the (Tribes of) "Judah" does not even occur in the oldest writings in the Old Testament (e.g. the Song of Deborah) but seems to have been a large "fake tribe" which was later made up of smaller, less politically powerful tribelets.

Amadeus, why are you so dedicated to convincing myself and others that the Bible is not true? What do you hope to gain by this? For example, I try to spread the truth as Yahweh has taught it to me because I believe that only the truth will set them free, enable them to live forever, and empower them to love without fear (if they put their faith in Yahshua). What is it that you hope to accomplish by trying to disprove God's word?

[edit on 22-6-2004 by Ischyros]

posted on Jun, 22 2004 @ 02:12 AM
i am an ashkenazi, but who am i really then?
a khazaar?, this is confusing.

i dont have any similarity with middle eastern people.

[edit on 22-6-2004 by feindflug]

posted on Jun, 22 2004 @ 07:49 AM
Hello there, Fiendflug:

The Ashkenazim are descendants of the Kievan Khazarian "converts" to Judaeism which took place between AD 780-AD 980 in the area of the present day Ukraine, so your blood line would most likely be centered around that area of the world....but the Khazarian empire was destroyed by Moscow after 1003 AD and the "Jewish Khazarian converts" headed westerly into northern-western Europe (Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany etc.), and, well....interbred with the local population despite "ghettoizing" tendencies in places where inbreeding certainly took place (sporadically) for several centuries throughout the so-called "Middle Ages. "

Being an Ashkenaz (a Yiddish word thought to be related to a Hebrew word (see the Midrashim on Genesis 10:1) referring to a descendant of the legendary son of Noach, Japheth (thought to represent Aryan "white people") and points in the Rabinnic liteature of the 11th to the 15th centuries to an area around "Germany") means that ethnically (i.e. genetically) you are essentially a NON SEMITIC "Jew" with Turko-Ukrainian Khazarian (Jewish convert) blood and possibly other European (i.e. Celtic and Slavic) blood groups.

But.....being an Ashkenaz also means, by definition, that you are probably not directly related by blood to any degree to the socalled Israelitish tribal clans i.e. "genetically related". Only "spiritually related" by religious heritage.

And 90% of world Jewry is not related to the socalled "Israelites" either (by blood) despite all the dis-information in especially the American press on this subject !

It's hard to know how many different distinct or inter-related ethnic groups made up the so-called 12 tribes of Israel (since there seems to have been a mixup early on as to how many tribes we're talking about, and which tribes we're talking about, see Judges chapter 5, the socalled Song of Deborah) and their ethnic origin is shrouded in clan mythology ("A Bedouin Syrian ready to starve was my father: a Canaanite was my mother" placed into the mouth of Abraham, the legendary father of both "Jews" and "Arabs").

You cannot take "the Bible" and all that "so and so begat so and so" literally "as science" since this oral method of transmissioin, valuable as it is for ethno-scientists is still folklore narrative, is not genetic blood screening which can be verifiable in detail in any modern sense--although oral history (which came to be written down by the time of Ezra in 420BC) is a valuable aid for the scientists to search for genetic clues generally.

But the "genetic story of the Jews" is made more complicated since we know that even the so-called "Ashkenazim" converts to Judaiesm certainly inter-bred genetically and married into "Sephardic" families over the centuries (i.e. after 780AD) and with other "mixed-semitic" diaspora Jews that had been literally scattered all over Europe and indeed into parts of Africa and Asia and interbred genetically with the local population, thereby losing their genetic identity to a great extent. (especially after Rome destroyed and exiled Palestinian Jews in the two Wars of Rebellion, i.e. in AD 72 and again in AD 136) that are of Palestinian Semitic extraction. So it's a mixed story about "Jewish blood" which is no longer a separate discernable entity, and probably never was since the legendary family trees in the "Bible" showing the tribes of Canaan all descended from the same father (Yakkov-Israel) is legendary with little basis in "genetic scientific fact"...

Genetic testing will hopefully one day reveal "scientifically" some wonderful things (possibly during this century!) about where exactly a certain tribe or race of people came from and who is actually related to whom in this world of ours---growing every day smaller and smaller---especially as it becomes more of an exact science.

However this might cause certain communities to hush up the evidence as "embarrasing" as it did recently with one Spanish genetic researcher who discovered that many of the Sefardi Jews in places like Yemen and in remote places in the world who "hold on to some of the ancient Judaic practices" and therfore seem to be a little genetically closer to the socalled ancient Israelites in general, have a distinct blood group almost identical to the present day Palestinian population, (!!) but vastly different from the Ashkenazim genetic markers.

The Ashkenazim show a wide variance from any set genetic pattern, mostly betraying clear Ukraininan and Turkish genetic markers but with distinct local area variants (i.e. the French Jews tested out as having French Celtic genetic markers, the Spanish Jews tested out as having a great deal of Spanish-Celtic genetic markers etc.)

That's probably why French Jews look like the French and German Jews look like the Germans and Italian Jews look like the Italians and Spanish Jews look like the Spanish etc.

The "original or more ancient bloodlines" have been mixed and remixed over the centuries so thoroughly, there is no longer any group of "pure" Jews" left in the world today---at least not "pure" in any meaningful sense.

It should be exciting (if the evidence is not supressed) some day to submit a sample of a person's blood to a computer and have it spit out your ancestry back 50,000 years !

We might be surprised lo learn exactly just who IS related to the Queen of England...or Osama bin Laden....or Hitler....or Mozart....or even "Jesus of Nazareth" for that matter !!

posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 05:45 AM
Amadeus, I wasn't really under the impression that this thread was intended as a discussion of zionism, but I'm willing to discuss it.

You're right about the arab palestinians being one of the most semetic bloodlines still in existence. Although it is interesting how stereotypical Jewish appearance seems to overlap with the stereotypes for Italians and Jews, not too many people actually believe that ancient hebrews were white. Furthermore, it has been suggested that Phoenecians were semetic in origin, and archaeology has revealed that canaanite pottery is finer than, but largely identical to Hebrew examples. Some have even suggested that Hebrews didn't conquer the region at all... they simply came out of the hills and started interacting more closely with the rest of their civilization. In that sense, Palestinians have every right to live in Palestine/Israel.

Your arguement is misdirected though, because people of EVERY race have the right to live in ANY country. If the Palestinians should rule Israel because of their bloodlines, then the psuedo-jews should rule Ukraine. Norman bloodlines have to be purged from the UK and sent out to drive the Frankish bloodlines out of Normandy. Ultimately half of the worlds population ends up crammed back into Northern Africa, and only the descendents of the first tribes to migrate out have any claim to land outside of Africa. (then of course the first to evolve have the right to Africa, and the races that evolved latest have to be exterminated. So much for the "we were here first" theory of government. Ask any Native American about that.

Governments should be about ideology, not race. Non-semetic jews migrated to the holy land of their religion after the holocaust, because it had been made abundantly clear that their religious ideas were not safe in other societies. So you have a bunch of immigrants in a British possession. palestinian arabs met thest immigrants with violence, making it clear that there could be no coexistence. So when the British mandate ended they created seperate states for the conflicting ideologies. Palestine fell victim to Jordanian aspirations, not Israeli ones Jordan intended to sieze the West Bank for itself, but offered the Israelis a place as an automomous province. The Israelis refused, and the result was the Israeli war of independence. Since then, there have been repeated attempts by Syria and Egypt especially to destroy a nation which has every right to be there (and which is in desperate need of reforms, but reforms that can only be made once the semetic arabs stop trying to murder the Gentile followers of Judaism.)

You seem to be under the impression that the international community established Israel because Jews are "God's chosen people", but the international community in general does not even believe them to be that. The international community established Israel because the ideology and the holy places of the Jewish religion were already there, and had been there under various conquerors for centuries. The international community supported the right of believers to immigrate to this unique place and become citizens of a nation built around the religion of that region. The international community DID NOT give them Jerusalem. That was attempted to be made special international zone, but that idea was rejected by extremists on both sides. If it were not for repeated attempts to destroy the nation of Israel, the international community could have enforced a compromise inspite of the extremists. Unfortunately, racially motivated thinking like your own has perpetuated a cold-war, marked by frequent flare-ups of open war and sparks of terrorism, so that the great issue of Israel's right to exist has overshadowed fairness in Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, and The West Bank (which were taken for the defense of Israel after Egypt and Syria mounted unprovoked attacks from these areas).

Naturally, the logic that establishes Israel's right to exist equally establishes the right of an Arab Palestinian state to exist, and demands racial equality and religious freedom for each group in both nations- in fact it negates the need seperate nations at all, both in that region and in the entire world. That of course is the utopian ideal. It can not even be approached until the immediate violence is ended- something that Israel has made honest attempts at, as have factions of the palestinian cause, however a very large radical segment of the palestinian side (as well as a crooked leadership, which is powerles to order peace because its people have always been assured that talk of peace was only lip service) continue to sabotage the process.

Frankly I think the best answer is to send in scores of Americans to open hog farms until both sides of the conflict just pack up and leave, then we can burn the whole country down and salt the Earth so that we don't have to babysit it to keep the war from starting again.

posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 12:13 PM

You cannot take "the Bible" and all that "so and so begat so and so" literally "as science" since this oral method of transmissioin, valuable as it is for ethno-scientists is still folklore narrative, is not genetic blood screening which can be verifiable in detail in any modern sense--although oral history (which came to be written down by the time of Ezra in 420BC) is a valuable aid for the scientists to search for genetic clues generally.

Psalm 46:1. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and
lean not unto your own understanding.

Romans 3:4 Let God be true, but every man a liar


The "original or more ancient bloodlines" have been mixed and remixed over the centuries so thoroughly, there is no longer any group of "pure" Jews" left in the world today---at least not "pure" in any meaningful sense.
The socalled LOST TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL are probably now extinct, having been mixed into Assyria and Babylon in antiquity

Rev 74 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


One could say that anything closely related to "Israelite blood" in any one group of people today is specious, since their descendants are virtually extinct today---and oddly, the population that shows the GREATEST GENETIC AFFINITY to the ancient "Israelite" blood from which the tribes were originally taken (if you read the modern Genetic Medical journals this year) is....hang on to your hats.....the present day Palestinian population !!

Many Palestinians are Christians in Israel, but the others follow a foreign God, Allah and do not believe in Yahweh or Jesus as Messiah. So if they are the closest match to a modern day Hebrew, why have they forsaken their ancient faith??

Even most Modern Day "Jews" are often under the delusion f that they are somehow blood related to the Israelite clans...and are therefore "chosen by their God (YHWH) " in some magical way.

Hmmm Ok read this scripture and tell me who it applies to please.

Israel shall be saved by Yahweh with an everlasting deliverance. You are not to be ashamed nor hurt, forever and ever. For thus said Yahweh, Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim, Former of earth and its Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isa. 45:17-18

So from the word of God it is quite simple. Firstly man will never know all things. Its impossible, so history itself is not always a good teacher. Theres no point in trying to separate the Lord from the Hebrew people , as they are the chosen people from the beginning, they were chosen to bring Jesus Christ the Messiah through their blood line. The names of the tribes of Israel are quoted above, so the bloodline has not died or been mixed as these people will be sealed. That is what I believe, and the fact that the Bible is the word of God and the truth. Just take a look at the existence of Israel today, something that was predicted by the word of God to happen thousands of years ago. Throw in the fact that every single neighbour of Israel is hostile, follows another God and outnumber the nation of Israel 100 to 1!! Its happened, Israel is once more, the Holy Lord of Israel said what he would do and his doing it, scatter the children of Israel and then bring them back. Their enemies will be sore confounded, they will not rise up and have victory over Israel, the end of the time of the gentiles is VERY close, Israel will be brought back to her former glory, God is restoring all things. The nations will come to worship the Lord in Israel one day, it will happen. Jesus Christ will rule the entire world from Israel!!

From what I have read on the tribes of Israel, there are many different theories, some that the Indians are descended from the lost tribes and others of course one of the famous ones is the Anglo Israeli theory, that the British and then Americans are part of the lost tribes, and their wealth and power has come from their blessings. I don’t think the lost tribes are dead and finished, but the problem with some of the lost tribes theories is racial suprierotiry, one race higher than the other. The reason for the Hebrews blessings is firstly God has promised them their land, he is the true God, the Ancient One and creator of heaven and earth, and he keeps his promises. The other reason is Jesus Christ, who is a Hebrew , his lineage is quoted in the Bible. He is the true saviour of the world.

Some of the above isn’t all about the topic, but to support the word of God which is truth.

Links on what happened to the lost tribes from different viewpoints:

[edit on 23-6-2004 by TruthStrgnrThanFiction]

posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 03:36 PM
Stranger than fiction: Although I respect your beliefs, certainly you understand that before you can use biblical claims as evidence you must establish the devine nature of the bible. If you do not first establish by compitent evidence that the bible is unerring, then you can not use the prophecy and the declarations of the Lord therein as evidence. At best, you could use the old testament as a historical reference, requiring corroboration.

I strongly disagree with the definition of modern Israel along racial lines, either by zionists or by opposing viewpoints. I understand the reality of the matter, I simply believe that it is misguided, because 1. It has already been pointed out, and you have not refuted, that there is very little if any pure Hebrew blood on this planet. 2. Race has no bearing on a nations right to exist.

You leave wide open the fact that most Israelis are not of Hebrew lineage, and that Arab Palestinians are. Between your assertion of the number of 144000 taken from Revelations, and that Israel is being restored over the Arabs, I interpret that you believe there are only 144000 people with any right to that land. You also seem to indicate that these people have the right and the destiny to conquer Arab lands. Am I mistaken about your words?
Also, your post indicates that you are a Christian, but ignores the Christian theology on the covenant with Israel in favor of a more Jewish point of view. The bible is explicit on the point that Abraham's righteousness was THROGH FAITH. The bible says that gentiles are circumcised (the symbol of the covenant with Yaweh) through FAITH. The circumcision is the sign of the promise to preserve and build the nation of Israel, and if a gentile can recieve this, then that gentile is in fact being afforded the status of a Hebrew, with whom the Gentile shares common lineage through Noah, if not more recently.
The establishment of Israel, and it's important geographic location, has less to do with a particular race and more to with the presence of God's message to humanity in an enduring form and in a place that can not escape the attention of the world. The blessing of Isreal is not for their lineage, but for their suffering as a nation for the sake of being the instrument of God's presence in the world.
In short, the Christian viewpoint does not center on the bloodlines of the Hebrews, but on the FAITH of all of God's people.
At the moment I do not own a bible, but I will be getting mine back shortly and will be able to provide scriptural support for my arguement.

I am aware that by my own standards, this arguement can not be advanced as a reality unless I establish the bible as fact, but that is not my intention. My intention is only to show one individual, that within the logic behind his own conclusion, there is a contradiction of that conclusion. I am not advancing an arguemtn of what is, but an arguement of what is not, which is why I take the liberty of using biblical support.

posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 08:52 PM
While certainly lies and propaganda have been issued by both sides of the Arab/Palestinian-Israeli conflict, I believe Vagabond is relying a little too much on the Israeli vesion of events in his defense of Israel's right to exist. The Zionists were the first ones to employ terrorism in the confict (look up the Stern Gang and Irgun militias). Zionists drove the British out of Palestine with such tactics, and they also conducted ethnic cleansing operations against Arab towns and villages. Also, even some Jews today point out that the Zionists helped the Holocaust to occur by encouraging western governments to prohibit Jewish immigration before and during WWII.

The establishment of a 'Jewish' state in the Middle East was/is a major plank in the Illuminati's plans to create a one-world global government. There is a good possibility that after the United States and 'Israel' drive the world to the brink of total destruction in a WWIII type scenario, the terrified nations of the world will finally be convinced to hand over their full sovereignty to the UN.

The Zionist state of 'Israel' is not the prophesied return of true Israel to the Holy Land. Ezekiel chapter 37 makes it clear that this return follows the resurrection of the righteous dead (which occurs after the return of Christ), and further establishes that Judah, Ephraim, and all the tribes of Israel will no longer transgress against God (verse 23). Anyone who has studied the modern 'Israeli' state understands that it is far from being a righteous nation. Instead, the Zionist state is the return of Edom (descendants of Esau, Jacob/Israel's older twin brother) who are masquerading as racial Jews along with the Khazars. I am not saying that every single modern Jew in the world is an Edomite or a Khazar, but I believer that most of them are.

Look at the parable of the Fig Tree in the Gospel According to Mathew.

Matthew 24:32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Now reference this back to chapter 21.

Matthew 21:18-20
18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

True Israel is symblolized by as an Olive Tree (see Romans ch. 11). The Fig Tree is the nation of Edom and other false Jews (see Revelation 2:9, 3:9).

See the "Pseudo Israel" thread in the Conspiracies in Religion section for more details.

posted on Jun, 23 2004 @ 08:56 PM
Okay, for those of you who are interested, here is some more information on ancient peoples who may be related to the Lost Tribes of Israel.

"Scythia , ancient region of Eurasia, extending from the Danube on the west to the borders of China on the east. The Scythians. flourished from the 8th to the 4th cent. B.C. They spoke an Indo-Iranian language but had no system of writing. They were nomadic conquerors and skilled horsemen. They seem to be related to the Saka, another nomadic tribe that roamed the steppes of central Asia at about the same time".


KJV James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

KJV Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Flavius Josephus records in his Antiquities of the Jews Book I Chapter 6 Section 1:

"Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians."

Because of this, many pastors and Bible 'scholars' teach that the Scythians are to be related primarily with Gog and Magog. However, the Greek historian Herodotus records the names of many different Scythian tribes which roamed the southern steppes of modern day Russia. It is possible that Josephus was somewhat confused on this issue, as he most likely never visited the Scythian homelands after all. This should also be considered in light of Noah's blessing given to his son Shem.

KJV Genesis 9:26-27
26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD (Yahweh) God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

KJV Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

So, if Japheth is to "dwell in the tents of Shem", then it would make sense for Magog (Japhethites) to be dwelling among, or in close proximity to, the Israelite Scythians (Shemites).

Also, a nomadic people called the Magyars invaded Europe in the 9th-10th centuries A.D. Magyar is etymologically related to Magog. The descendantss of the Magyars live chiefly in modern-day Hungary, but also have minority populations in Romania (1,400,000), Slovakia (520,500), Serbia and Montenegro (293,000), Ukraine (170,000), Croatia (16,500), the Czech Republic (14,600) and Slovenia (7,700).

Now, please look again at Colossians 3:11.

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

If Scythians were merely evil barbarians, why is "Barbarian" (which really only implies a non-Greek speaking people) the first type of people mentioned right before them? If we follow the logical order of the verse, then Greek, uncircumcision, and Barbarian should be on one side, while Jew, circumcision, and Scythian should be on the other.

I believe many Scythian tribes were actually Israelites who had migrated northward from the Middle East after the fall of the Assyrian empire..

4658 Σκυθης Skythes, Scythian (name occurs only once in the New Testament) [From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance]

The name has two possible derivations. One possibility is that it comes from the Hebrew word Sukka/Sukkot:

5521 סכה sukkah, n.f. tabernacle, shrine; booth, shelter, dwelling, tent:

5523 סכות sukkot, Succoth, "booths"

It is likely that many (but not all) of the 10 northern tribes of the Israelites were forced to remain nomadic by the Assyrians after being taken into captivity around 715-722 B.C. and were thereby forced to dwell in tents, or sukkotim (plural form of sukkot).

KJV 2 Kings 18:9-12
9 And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Hezekiah, which was the seventh year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up against Samaria, and besieged it.
10 And at the end of three years they took it: even in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that is the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken.
11 And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria, and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes:
12 Because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded, and would not hear them, nor do them.

Dating the earliest Scythians has been a problem since they did not develop their distinctive art style until the 6th century B.C. A. I. Melyukova suggested that the early Scythians were descendants of tribes of the Srubnaya culture who, between the middle of the 2nd millenium B.C. and the end of the 7th century B.C., moved in several waves from the Volga-Ural steppes into the north Black Sea area and assimilated the local Cimmerians. In history, the Scythians was first recorded in the 7th century B.C. as Assyria's ally against the Cimmerians, who had lost their homeland to the Scythians and moved south. The Scythian king, Partatua married an Assyrian princess in 674 B.C. and two nations remained allies. Scythians and Assyrians together conquered the Medes of the Caspian Sea; however the Medes was able to drive the Scythians out of western Asia and back to the Pontic Steppes by the turn of the century.


One of the principal extent sources for Scythian history The Histories by Herodotus, Book Four. They are also briefly mentioned here and there throughout The Histories. Here are a few samples of interesting and relevant quotes from Herodotus:

"The Scythians, however, though in other respects I do not admire them, have managed one thing, and that the most important in human affairs, better than anyone else on the face of the earth: I mean their own preservation". (Book IV, 46, pgs. 230-231 in my Penguin Classics version - Penguin Books. London, England. 1996. John Marincolas' revised edition from Aubrey de Selincourt's 1954 translation.)

"They never use pigs for sacrifice and will not even breed them anywhere in the country". (Book IV, 63, pg. 235)

"After a burial, the Scythians go through a process of cleaning themselves;" (Book IV, 73, pg. 238)

"Like the Egyptian, the Scythians are dead-set against foreign ways, especially against Greek ways". (Book IV, 76. pg. 239)

"These two stories will show the importance which the Scythians attach to their national traditions, and the severity of the punishments they inflict upon anyone who introduces alien customs". (Book IV, 80, pg. 241)

Clues From Scythian Art

It may seem strange that an art from the Near East could have traveled so far inland and appeared (as in Luristan ) with no apparent signs of early development (5) in more than one place at about the same time. But a significant point to remember is that both Urartu and Luristan (Media) were at that time within the Assyrian administration. The timing of the appearance of Scythian art coincides with the invasions of the Assyrians into Syria, Phoenicia and the northern kingdom of Israel. Not only were luxury articles carried away as a result of these invasions, craftsmen were deported and put to work in the various Assyrian areas of control. Evidence of this is seen in the flowering of what is called Neo-Assyrian art, the last phase of Assyrian art which is said to have started in the reign of Tiglathpilesar. Another term given by art historians for this new Assyrian style is "Phoenician".(6) It is worth considering that Scythian art (which by its character could carry the name "Phoenician" even more easily) may be evidence not just of the influence of deported craftsmen but of actual population groups deported from the areas of invasion (as was the Assyrian habit when conquering a territory) These groups may have been more than one people of different ethnic origins from the Near East but who had similar or at times indistinguishable art styles.



439 pages

The typical reader will find Collins' belief that the Northern Europeans and Anglo Saxon countries are descendants of the Lost 10 Tribes of Israel a bit of a jolt but no matter your secular or religious beliefs this book it worth its weight in gold for its juicy tidbits of history that are usually ignored by conventional historians. Collins links the Saka and the Scythians with the Israelites and the Anglo Saxons and does a very astute job of it. He also writes a revealing chapter on the migrations of the Goths and their relationship to the Parthian empire (which by the way showed some tendancy to use animal style art also).

Those interested in pre- Columbian Old World contacts with America will find his book a further revelation as he relates Barry Fell's discoveries of a Celtic presence in New England to Israelite exploration and trade in conjunction with the Phoenicians.

This book is worth its price just for the bibliography.
(Available from

The Ten Tribes are also mentioned in the Apocrypha:

KJV 2 Esdras (Ezra) 13:37-50
[37] And this my Son shall rebuke the wicked inventions of those nations, which for their wicked life are fallen into the tempest;
[38] And shall lay before them their evil thoughts, and the torments wherewith they shall begin to be tormented, which are like unto a flame: and he shall destroy them without labour by the law which is like unto me.
[39] And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;
[40] Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.[41] But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
[42] That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
[43] And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
[44] For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
[45] For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
[46] Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
[47] The Highest shall stay the springs of the stream again, that they may go through: therefore sawest thou the multitude with peace.
[48] But those that be left behind of thy people are they that are found within my borders.
[49] Now when he destroyeth the multitude of the nations that are gathered together, he shall defend his people that remain.
[50] And then shall he shew them great wonders.

The other possible derivation of Scythian is from Isaac. Itzhak - Sakka - Sacae (a people referred to in Herodotus) - Scythes?

Others also point out this likely connection: Itzhak - Sakka - Sacae - Sak's Son - Saxon.

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Ischyros]

posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 12:51 AM
I suppose that's fair enough Ischyros. As you have said, there is a lot of propaganda flying around on the matter. I still maintain my support of Israel's right to exist (at least as much as any other nation. As a matter of pure idealism I'm not sure nations are such a good idea). The founding of Israel is not unique, except in the negative attention it has recieved. Immigration and subsequent struggle for independence was a major factor in the creation of many nations (pretty much the entire Western Hemisphere) and outright conquest accounts for much of the rest. There are two factors working against Israel's image. 1. The conquest and founding were done recently, and were on televised news. 2. It involved "Jews" who aren't particularly popular in most parts of the world.
Eritrea has fought with Ethiopia for about 40 years, and the situation has a few parallels to the Arab-Israeli conflict. U.N. peacekeepers protect Eritrea, but they kindly stepped aside for Nasser, even though their stated mission was to occupy Sinai and prevent another Egytian invasion of Israel, so that Israel could afford to take its military out of Sinai. In other words, Israel was stabbed in the back by the U.N. in an attempt to destroy the country. The fact that the U.N. would do this, but would not simply pass a resolution re-establishing Palestine and punishing Israel goes to show that Israel's opponents are aware of Israel's right to exist, but refuse to acknowledge it.

If there's a shrewd lawyer anywhere in Mexico, they'll be demanding the western half of the United States back on the same day that the U.N. takes decisive action against Israel.

posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 11:52 AM
I have a different view of Israel’s relationship with the UN. From what I’ve learned, the UN is controlled by the same people and forces who supported the creation of the nation of Israel back on May 14, 1948. In fact, Israel was one of the few things that the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. managed to agree on during the Cold War.

“The Soviet Union vigorously opposed partition.”
After the British decided to bring the Palestine issue to the UN, Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin's adviser on Palestine asked a representative of the Jewish Agency why the Jews agreed to let the UN decide the fate of Palestine. "Don't you know," he said, "that the only way a Jewish state will be established is if the U.S. and Soviet Union agree? Nothing like that ever happened. It cannot possibly happen. It will never happen."
In May 1947, however, Soviet delegate Andrei Gromyko said:
The fact that no Western European State has been able to ensure the defense of the elementary rights of the Jewish people and to safeguard it against the violence of the fascist executioners explains the aspirations of the Jews to establish their own State. It would be unjust not to take this into consideration and to deny the right of the Jewish people to realize this aspiration.9
A few months later, the Soviet Union backed partition and, subsequently, became the second nation to recognize Israel.

Indeed, the Soviet Union was the third nation, after the United States and Guatemala, to recognize the fledgling Jewish state and the first to extend full de jure recognition. With Soviet assistance, Czechoslovakian arms were sent to the Jews in Palestine even before the establishment of the state in May 1948. In 1949, the Soviet Union joined 36 other members in supporting Israel's admission to the UN (12 were opposed, including nine predominantly Muslim states, and there were nine abstentions).

Just as American Jews fell in love with Israel after 1967, Israelis fell in love with America. It is easy to forget today that back in the early 1950’s, when Israeli politics was dominated by the Labor Party, there was much talk about bipolarity and the importance of balancing Israel’s relations between America and the Soviet Union - which is still referred to by many Zionist-Socialists as “Ha’Moledet Hashniya” - the second homeland. The Soviet Union was the first country to recognize the Jewish state and the social, cultural, and ideological links between the Eastern European Zionists and Moscow were far stronger than anything that existed between America and Israel. Ehud Gol, the former spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, liked to tell me, “I may be married to a nice Jewish girl from New York today, but when I am in the shower in the morning, I still sing all the Russian Red Army songs I learned in my [Zionist] youth group in the fifties.”
It was only after Stalin’s anti-Semitic rampage and Israel’s open support for America in the Korean War that the Soviet Union faded permanently as a potential Great Power patron of the Jewish state. But the instinct of Israeli leaders was still not to look toward Washington. Instead, Israel in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s began a love affair with Charles de Gaulle’s France, which became the Jewish state’s main arms supplier.

(Thomas L. Friedman. From Beirut to Jerusalem. Anchor Books, Doubleday. New York. 1995. pgs. 458-459.)

Most American Christians support ‘Israel’ due to their belief ingrained in them by their ‘churches’ that the modern Jews are ‘the chosen people’ of God. Of course, they might have had a hard time doing so if ’Israel’ was allied with “The Evil Empire”. Therefore, the ties with the Soviet Union were severed for eighteen or nineteen years in order for the Zionist State to eventually become the darling of the Bible Belt. Furthermore, the Zionists thrive on victim hood. Even though most Christians feel the ’Jews’ have a divine right to the land, a little extra motivation never hurts. Holocaust sympathies and the impression that ‘Israel’ is an underdog, oppressed by the United Nations, and surrounded on all sides by hostile Arabs, encourage even many non-Christians to support ‘Israel’ unwaveringly.

Yes, the Soviet Union gave military aid to both Syria and Egypt during the wars which took place in 1967 and 1973, but only enough to give them confidence to fight, not enough for them to win. I know that may sound strange, but the thing is the NWO agenda could not yet permit the Zionists to come to term with their enemies. Why could they never allow peace in the Middle East? Simple. The mainstream Evangelical Protestant Christian interpretation of prophecy teaches that the anti-Christ will eventually arrive and conclude a seven-year peace treaty between Israel and her enemies. Many, if not most, of these same churchgoers also believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine, which teaches that all worthy Christians will be magically transported away from the earth before the anti-Christ is revealed and anything really bad starts happening. It’s sort of like a ‘Get-out-of-jail-free card”. Anyway, in order to keep this false expectation alive, no true, lasting peace can be established in the Holy Land until such time as the Illuminati can manufacture a really convincing pseudo-Second Coming and/or fake Rapture.

Unfortunately, most churchgoers will have a very difficult time believing anything I’ve just written. The indoctrination and mind control has progressed to such an extent that many Christians become angry and defensive if anyone says anything bad about the ‘Jews’ or ‘Israel’. Very few understand the absolutely un-Biblical nature of their support for the Zionists. For one thing, the state of ‘Israel’ is primarily secular and is involved in stem-cell research, cloning, money-laundering, drug manufacture (primarily Ecstasy), and drug smuggling, etc. Moreover, Judaism itself is an anti-Christ religion. The practitioners of Judaism do not accept Yahshua Ha-Mashiach (otherwise known as Jesus Christ) as their Lord and Savior and, thus, they reject Christ. They expect another Messiah to arrive in his stead, who will of course be, the anti-Christ himself.

posted on Jun, 25 2004 @ 12:25 PM
Jute (joot), n. a member of a Germanic people that invaded Britain in the 5th century A.D., settling mainly in Kent. --Jutish, adj.
Jutland (jut-land), n. a peninsula comprising the continental portion of Denmark. 11, 441 sq. mi. (29, 630 sq. km.), Danish, Jylland. --Jutlander, n. --Jutlandish, adj (Random House Webster’s College Dictionary. Random House Inc. New York. 1995. Pg. 735)

Jute A Low-German tribe that invaded southern England (according to legend under Horsa and Hengist)in the 5th century and set up a kingdom in Kent. (Oxford Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press. New York. 2000. Pg.334)

Angles, Saxons, and Jutes - first raiders, then invaders - came to control southeastern and central Britain (500-534); some historians place the semi-legendary King Arthru in this period (r. ca. 516? Ca. 537?) as leader of the Roman-Briton defenders. (Timelines of War: A Chronology of Warfare from 100, 000 BC to the Present. David Brownstone and Irene Franck. Little, Brown, and Company. Boston. 1996. Pg. 92)

Jutes Germanic people who invaded Britan in the 5th century along with Angles, Saxons, and others. They settled mainly in Kent and the Isle of Wight. (Philip’s Millenium Encyclopedia and World Atlas. George Philip Limited, an imprint of Octopus Publishing Group. London. 1999. Pg. 356)

JUTES, the third of the Teutonic nations which invaded Britain in the 5th century, called by Bede Iutae or luli (see BRITAIN, ANGLO-SAXON). They settled in Kent and the Isle of Wight together with the adjacent parts of Hampshire.

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name given to the Germanic-speaking peoples who settled in England after the decline of Roman rule there. They were first invited by the Celtic King Vortigern , who needed help fighting the Picts and Scots.

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Kent, kingdom of
one of the kingdoms of Anglo-Saxon England. It was settled in the mid-5th cent. by aggressive bands of people called Jutes (see Anglo-Saxons ).

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'Among the SAXON invaders of Britain were the JUTES, a people who came from a part of Denmark still called JUTLAND, to settle in Kent and the Isle of Wight.

'Having noted the evidence previously offered which indicates the Israelitish origin of the Saxons as a whole, let us now consider the Jutes for they have in their name itself conclusive evidence of their Israelitish identity.

'This becomes clear when we remember the great change which took place in the languages of northern Europe some time previous to 100 B.C., whereby a great many words which had previously had in them the sound of our letter 'd' changed this to the sound of 't'. (Grimm's Law). As this change occurred during the years in which the Saxons were migrating to Western Europe from their old home east of the Black Sea, it is obvious that the people who arrived in Denmark as Jutes must have started out as JUDES or Judai.

'Further, as all of the Saxon tribes, including the Jutes, were descended from the SACAE (Sacasene) of MEDIA, it follows that the Sacae must have had among them a tribe called Judes or Judai even before they left Media.

'The importance of this becomes apparent when we remember that the Israel people were divided into TWO separate nations -- Israel and Judah, AND that when the Assyrians conquered Israel and drove the Israelites away into captivity in MEDIA, they ALSO took some of the people from the country districts of Judah. it is certain, therefore, that among the Israelites in Media there was a distinct group who would be known by a plural form of the name Judah -- Judahites, Judae, Judai, Judi, or Judes.

'In this connection we should note too that in the German language the Jews, who are a part of the people of Judah, are called JUDEN (singular -- Jude), which, is equivalent to 'Judes' in English. Further, in the Low German dialects, which are more closely related to Old English (the English of the Saxons and Jutes) the name Jude is pronounced 'Yut', which is equivalent to the English 'Jute'.

'We have, therefore, six known facts to consider: (1) that when the Israel people were deported to Media by the Assyrians, part of the people of the Kingdom of Judah were taken with them; (2) that, as a consequence, there was among the Israelites in Media a group of Judahites, Judai, or Judes; (3) that among the Saxons who came into Britain there was a tribe called Jutes; (4) that during the time they were migrating westward across Europe the 'd' in their language became 't'; (5) that the Saxons were descended from the Sacae of Media; and (6) that Sacae is the name by which the Israelites in Media were known to the Persian historians.

'It is certain, therefore, that the JUTES were originally called Judes or Judai, and that they were the descendants of that part of the people of JUDAH which the Assyrians carried away with Israel to Media. -- Wake Up! August, 1979.


REASON FOR EDIT: Had to fix a link.

[edit on 25-6-2004 by Ischyros]

posted on Jun, 26 2004 @ 12:52 AM
I am aware that the soviets and Americans agreed on Israel and were friendly towards Israel. The same sort of courting went on in Iraq. It was common in the middle east to give key players whatever they wanted in hopes of establishing a foothold. This does not change the fact that UN forces abandoned their responsibility to seperate the two nations by occupying the Sinai, and that after Israel routed the Syrian army and encircled the Egyptians, the USSR threatened to step in if Israel moved on Damascus and Cairo.

Furthermore, as much as the Soviets and Americans would have disagreed, Europe was not a puppet in the cold war. They were in fact playing both sides against the middle while attempting to persue their own interests. This is especially illustrated by the lax attitude towards defense taken by the Germans and French, who believed American troops and American nukes would protect them while they attempted to advance their interests in fields other than defense. The Leopard 1 tank is an outstanding example of the inexpensive paper forces that Europeans fielded while abusing the luxury of American protection.
In the same way it can be argued that the European attitude towards jews was a factor in the withdrawl of UN forces.

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