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Attacking the Bystander

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posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 04:51 AM
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Threads keep popping up lately discussing the issue of people standing by and doing nothing while they witness somebody else being mistreated. These range from road rage, spousal abuse, over the counter sprays, public disagreements to bullying and all-out brawls. The theme is so common that various social experiments have been constructed to test just how the average person responds when they witness somebody being mistreated. The results of these experiments have been shared on ATS before and it is amazing how well they encourage the "group think" mentality. Suddenly a Bystander that has nothing to do with somebody else's problem becomes the main villain and reason why evil exists in our world.

The next time you see a video like this, maybe you should ask yourself a few questions before you decide to attack the bystander and accuse them of doing nothing. Should somebody who happens to be near the area of animosity risk physical assault, bullying and even death because somebody else has decided to mistreat another person? Should the family of the person that has been harmed trying to help somebody they didn't know have to suffer? Blaming the bystander might be convenient, but it has the potential to do the following:
1) Needlessly endangers the lives of people going about their daily lives
2) Trivialises the roll of the aggressor/antagonist
3) Absolves the targeted person of having to carry personal responsibility

This is not about stopping yourself from helping others that are in need. It is about not judging people who decide not get involved in a situation where uncalculated risks and societal expectation oblige them to risk their lives.

ETA: The following is an example of somebody needlessly losing their life by taking an uncalculated risk when attempting to help a stranger in trouble.
Police question CBD shooting suspect

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]




posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 04:58 AM
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Erm are you seriously saying what I think you are. That because you might get hurt in some way you shouldn't try to help people? That just walking on by is perfectly ok cause it doesn't concern you and you've nothing to gain and everything to lose?

I've helped people and risked myself because of it and i'd do it all over again. Wouldn't you want someone to help you?



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 05:05 AM
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This is definitely a difficult topic, and both sides can make a good argument for why they choose to do what they do. But I think it all comes down to, are we willing to allow our society to continue to fall apart?

Because that is what is, and will, happen if people don't stand up for each other no matter the consequences. If we all just live for ourselves, society is bound to be get worse, and we already see this. If the majority of people in our society were willing to step in and help out a victim, perpetrators would definitely begin to think much harder about abusing someone else, I guarantee you that. And that goes for any situation were there is a 'victim', not just physical/verbal abuse.

I myself have been caught in many of these situations and have been physically assaulted, but one thing I can say is that the pain from that was not much worse than the pain of seeing someone getting abused and just walking away.



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 05:10 AM
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There are some people who act just like a deer in your headlights, and those who just spring into action.
What we all know is that TPTB thrive on creating chaos, and we are bombarded on the nightly news with stories of innocent bystanders hurt or killed.
That gets put into our mental file, and keeps us in fear of action.



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 05:16 AM
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I hear no evil , see no evil. and remember kids no body likes a grass. there's nothing more entertaining than watching bad things happen to some one else its sad but true.



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 05:18 AM
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reply to post by danielhanson420
 



there's nothing more entertaining than watching bad things happen to some one else its sad but true.

Till it's happening to you, and you wonder why nobody will help you.



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 05:33 AM
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I often get involved, you have to. If you see someone suffering or obviously in a bad position, you help!

I think in the past 2 years I have intervened in beatings and a theft around 4 times. One was a man beating a woman in a car park, I couldn't believe it, I had to run about 25 meters and push through people watching just to drag him off!

If we have the power to help we should. Its a risk for sure, but if that was my girl or family I would hope someone had the courage to intervene too.

I think there is a saying that goes something like, a good man doing nothing is just as bad as the one doing evil.

My girl told my she got scared sometimes but would not have it any other way.
I must admit though, each time I felt confident of a peaceful outcome or that I could handle myself, I have not been too tested to my limits as of yet though. So I can appreciate the other point of view.

Come on people help each other!



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 05:35 AM
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Originally posted by enteri
Erm are you seriously saying what I think you are. That because you might get hurt in some way you shouldn't try to help people? That just walking on by is perfectly ok cause it doesn't concern you and you've nothing to gain and everything to lose?

No, that is not what I am saying. I am talking about passing sweeping generalisations on people who choose not to get involved in certain situations.


I've helped people and risked myself because of it and i'd do it all over again. Wouldn't you want someone to help you?

Read the OP again because you have completely missed the message.

-----------------------------

This is the type of situation to which I am referring:
Police question CBD shooting suspect

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 05:55 AM
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reply to post by AccessDenied
 


things have happend to me and i wouldnt expect anyone to get involved. thats the way it is....



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 06:16 AM
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Evil things happen not because good people do nothing; they happen because the punishment for crime does not act as a strong-enough deterrent to make them think twice about harming another person. (Leaving those with a criminal record unchecked is another major reason why. How many times have ex-cons gone on to ruin more innocent lives after being shown leniency for their original offences?)

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 06:30 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


This is a very good point. I know it contradicts what I tried to say, but essentially you are right. I see this a lot in the UK, so many youth offenders get off with a slap on the wrist only to go out and continue with their crimes, there a lots of examples of this happening.

Hell, some of them even get to go on recreational weekends and go to sporting events! It does send the wrong impression, getting rewarded instead of punished.

Of course this a general observation, I agree that sometimes a carrot is better than the stick, but usually only before the offence has been committed.



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Evil things happen not because good people do nothing; they happen because the punishment for crime does not act as a strong-enough deterrent to make them think twice about harming another person. (Leaving those with a criminal record unchecked is another major reason why. How many times have ex-cons gone on to ruin more innocent lives after being shown leniency for their original offences?)

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]


So by your logic, since getting locked in a caged for multiple years is not enough to deter crime, there must be something even stronger? What will that entail, capital punishment?

Your right on one thing, criminals continue to commit further crimes even after punishment, but not because of leniency. It is because the system is not set up to reform them, it is set up to remove them, but you can't give someone life just for assault so sooner or later they will be back out even more hardened by there prison experience.

If we want to solve these issues in our society we have to take two approaches. One, we must go to the root of the problem and fix it; ie. education, employment, housing..., and two, society as a whole must take responsibility and act accordingly in a non-individualist/self-concerning manner. That means lending a helping hand to a falling comrade, even if that puts you in harms way. Fear is the reason why this isn't happening at a greater level in our society.

"Fear itself, is the only thing to be feared" - Buddha Gautama



posted on Jul, 23 2010 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
So by your logic, since getting locked in a caged for multiple years is not enough to deter crime, there must be something even stronger? What will that entail, capital punishment?

The punishment should fit the crime. At the moment though, people are getting off way too easy. I am suggesting that minimum sentences for serious crimes get increased. Things like jaywalking and littering are not the types of "crimes" I have in mind.


Your right on one thing, criminals continue to commit further crimes even after punishment, but not because of leniency. It is because the system is not set up to reform them, it is set up to remove them, but you can't give someone life just for assault so sooner or later they will be back out even more hardened by there prison experience.

I agree. If you are subjected to an environment that is full of hate and ridicule for 5+ years, you will probably come out worse than you went in. The trouble with jail at the moment is that people seem to fear it because of what will happen to you when you get in, not the idea of losing the freedoms most people take for granted.


If we want to solve these issues in our society we have to take two approaches. One, we must go to the root of the problem and fix it; ie. education, employment, housing..., and two, society as a whole must take responsibility and act accordingly in a non-individualist/self-concerning manner. That means lending a helping hand to a falling comrade, even if that puts you in harms way. Fear is the reason why this isn't happening at a greater level in our society.

Of course, that is "non-individual/self-concerning" as defined by your views. Who gets to decide these views? Last time I checked we, ordinary citizens, were not given the power to establish what is right and what is wrong, what is fair and what is unfair. The system is broken in more than one place.

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 10:11 AM
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The punishment should fit the crime. At the moment though, people are getting off way too easy. I am suggesting that minimum sentences for serious crimes get increased. Things like jaywalking and littering are not the types of "crimes" I have in mind.
Do you realize that, the only people who are "getting off way too easy" are the wealthy? Do you realize the US is only 5% of the worlds overall population, but has 25% of the worlds prison population? And 70%+ of them are Black, while only 10% are White? www.nytimes.com...


I agree. If you are subjected to an environment that is full of hate and ridicule for 5+ years, you will probably come out worse than you went in. The trouble with jail at the moment is that people seem to fear it because of what will happen to you when you get in, not the idea of losing the freedoms most people take for granted.
There is some truth to that, but again this is mainly only true for the middle and upper classes of White people, because they are the minority in prison. When you live in the 'Ghetto's' of America, prison is not much different or harder to survive in than the 'streets' are. Go spend a week walking around the south side of Chicago, or Detroit, or Milwaukee or Brooklyn, or Oakland, (just places that I frequent) and tell me if prison would seem all that scary to you then, especially if you were Black.



Of course, that is "non-individual/self-concerning" as defined by your views. Who gets to decide these views? Last time I checked we, ordinary citizens, were not given the power to establish what is right and what is wrong, what is fair and what is unfair. The system is broken in more than one place.

No, I did not say judge anyone or become a "Super Hero"
, I just said be "non-individual/self-concerning" and offer a helping hand when you witness abuse. The police may officially say they do not want citizens stepping in to do "their job", but that is a statement that is made by the "higher ups" who want to keep job security and it conforms society and renders them even more powerless. Remember, the police and politicians who set and guard these laws, work for us the 'people' who are far more powerful than the state. This is one good thing about Democracy. We Are the ones who dictate "what is right and what is wrong", but it is true society is becoming less and less aware of this and are relinquishing this power to the "Guardians" who have proven themselves to be corrupt and care more about economics than justice, equality and safety. If the majority of society was "non-individual/self-concerning", the 'views' between us on these issues would not be much different, guaranteed.

Good convo nonetheless, peace.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 10:32 AM
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Video of Gruesome Hit-and-Run Released by Connecticut Police


HARTFORD, Conn. — A 78-year-old man is tossed like a rag doll by a hit-and-run driver and lies motionless on a busy city street as car after car goes by. Pedestrians gawk but appear to do nothing. One driver stops briefly but then pulls back into traffic. A man on a scooter slowly circles the victim before zipping away.




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dozens Ignored a Man Dying on a Sidewalk in Queens


Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax’s last act may have been helping a woman who was having an argument with another man last Sunday morning in Queens. But his last hour or so was spent as a curiosity for people passing him on the street as he lay face down in blood after being stabbed several times.

Mr. Tale-Yax, 31, was pronounced dead by medical workers who responded to a 911 call around 7:20 a.m. on April 18. The police confirmed the authenticity of surveillance video on The New York Post’s Web site that shows dozens of people walking by Mr. Tale-Yax, who was homeless, lying on the sidewalk at 144th Street and 88th Road in Jamaica. After more than an hour, the video shows one man shake Mr. Tale-Yax before turning him over to reveal the wounds.


Video.

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Another victim of the bystander effect


Social Psychology by psychologists Elliot Aronson and Timothy Wilson describes the bystander effect as “a social psychological phenomenon in which individuals are less likely to offer help in an emergency situation when other people are present. The probability of help is inversely proportional to the number of bystanders. In other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help.”


[edit on 7/24/10 by Ferris.Bueller.II]



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II
 


Just a symptom of the powerlessness felt by the average western citizen.

I always keep healthy order within my sphere of action no matter the consequences because I feel it's my purpose.



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
 


I live in Australia so perhaps that is why our opinions on prison and punishment seem to differ. To be honest with you the idea of a person's race, religion or ethnicity did not enter my mind when thinking about convicts and those committing crimes. But now that you have mentioned it...



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II
 


That first two examples are disturbing. It's definitely not the kind of situation I had in mind when asking others not to judge bystanders. Had I been there at the time, I believe I would have attempted to help.

The information you gave about the Bystander Effect is very interesting. I vaguely recall learning about it in one of my psychology classes, but am really glad you brought it up because it relates to this thread.

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I do remember a few years back there was an accident near where I live which I saw on the way home. No medical staff/police appeared at the scene and I felt compelled to ring 000 (Australia's emergency number). I pulled over and called, telling them there was an accident and they should sent an Ambulance immediately. The operator politely informed me that they had already received a number of calls but thanked me for the call.

[edit on 24/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Jul, 24 2010 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II
 


That first two examples are disturbing. It's definitely not the kind of situation I had in mind when asking others not to judge bystanders. Had I been there at the time, I believe I would have attempted to help.


I'm sure a majority of the people in those videos would've said they would help also before these incidents. You don't know what you'll do until you are in the action.

I've heard people say trying to help others while putting your own life at risk is a human emotion, and if your animal instincts take over, your preservation of self will overrule compassion. But this is just not the case.

Dog Drags Hurt Dog Off Busy Highway


A dog rescued another dog that was struck by a vehicle in Chile, dragging the animal by its teeth across the busy highway to safety.

The feat was captured on video, which shows cars driving by at highway speeds while the dog performs the rescue.

An expert said the act of bravery was natural instinct for the dog.

Inside Edition, which obtained the video, said both dogs survived.




Actually, I think it's the other way around. There are lots of examples of animals helping other animals and humans while putting their own safety at risk. Instead, I think a lot of people get in the entitlement mindset that they shouldn't help others because somebody else will.



posted on Jul, 26 2010 @ 07:53 AM
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Have stepped in many times over the years to help those that have needed it. Wouldnt be able to live with knowing I could have done something and did nothing. Its our responsibility as human beings to help those we see in need when we can and to try to make the world a better place. Have never gave it a second thought. As to being injured so what have been injured many times in past and one heals. No fear of dying its part of life happens to everyone ...
Will continue to help those I see in need regardless ..



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