US WW2 Experimental aircraft you've never heard of... Equal to German projects?

Hey guys,
There are a lot of threads on ATS -- and elsewhere -- regarding secret German WW2 aviation projects. Many of these threads carry the general theme that, had the war lasted a few months longer, that the allies would have been totally outclassed by the Germans and either forced into a stalemate or a longer war (obviously the logic that 'if the war was longer, it would have been longer' only holds up in a theoretical light). These commentaries also argue, often, that the US 'stole' all of its advanced tech from the Germans, and that WW2 american engineers were really just experts at developing known techs to their potential.

Well... I thought I'd just post some links to american experimental fighter aircraft from the WW2 period. Some of these are just as revolutionary as the German stuff. Some of these craft never made it into production because they were really no better than existing craft... but the same can be said for classified german projects that some people hold up as 'proof' that the German's had more ingenuity than their american counterparts (that is, the designs were revolutionary, even if the tech wasn't there).

Anyways... enjoy this info. If you know of some weirder american aircraft projects from ww2 please feel free to provide links here, too. It wasn't my intention to just link to experimental fighters, but, time being what it is...

xp-79 rocket/jet flying wing (just as revolutionary as the Horton flying wing?):
www.wpafb.af.mil...



Bell xp-59 airacomet (america's first jet.. underpowered, yes, but shows that the US had jet projects dating to the beginning of the war, too):
www.wpafb.af.mil...



mcdonnell xp-67 (no significant performance improvemnt over existing fighters, but you can see a glimpse of mid-50s aerodynamic styling in its fuselage):





Republic Xp-72 (a suped-up P-47 that was intended to intercept V-1s. Many argue that buzz bombs, if allowed to operate longer, could have terrorized the British into submission. To be fair, then, if the war lasted longer you would have had special buzz bomb interceptors, too):
www.wpafb.af.mil...



And the P-80 (later F-80) Shooting Star. This is a well-known fighter, but not too many people realize that it was entering service as the war was winding up. In a longer war, these would easily have outclassed the Me-262:
www.wpafb.af.mil...


And, of course, there are things like the XB-35 flying wing and B-36 that would have entered service if the war lasted longer.

Anyways, hope you guys found these aircraft, especially that flying wing fighter, interesting...

And not to forget the bombers:

The Northrop XB-35, the granddad of today's most advanced bomber:
www.wpafb.af.mil...



The Douglas XB-42 Mixmaster (personally, I think this thing looks like a maintenance nightmare... but I do like how its name sounds like that of a rapper):
www.wpafb.af.mil...

I watched a show on this topic like a week ago on the History Channel and we had some nice planes in the works back then.

They were all dropped in favor of copying superior German products stolen. So much for em.

USA has already admitted that captured German missile and aircraft technology saved between ~10 and 20 of R&D in the states, and futhermore with people like Von Braun forced to work for USA..

*cough* *nazis designed apollo series* *cough*

You have an interesting article there, but, it is true! MANY of the US fighters that are around now, found their roots back in WWII. I'm sorry that I don't have any links to present to you with the information, but I'll work on that. There are some old "tourist" sites in what used to be "East" Germany, that I have visited! If you go there, you can see photographs and modells of the forerunner of the B-2; F-117; F-18 - F-22; you can also see where the Nazis built their "V" type rockets, although many of these places have been utterly destroyed. The Nazis had an aircraft carrier (never got around to using it, thank god); some rockets were also launched from subs, and they even had a few "intercontinental" rockets (New York Rocket), capable of hitting targets on the east coast (again, thank whatever or whoever that they never used them!). I really wouldn't like to be running around in a brown uniform, with an armband in red! Try to find the links.

If America had just stolen German tech after the war, we obviously would have just ended up building the German models if they were so much better then our own. It's more reasonable to say that we encorporated German design with what we developed.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
They were all dropped in favor of copying superior German products stolen. So much for em.

USA has already admitted that captured German missile and aircraft technology saved between ~10 and 20 of R&D in the states, and futhermore with people like Von Braun forced to work for USA..

*cough* *nazis designed apollo series* *cough*

i dont think von braun was "Forced" to work for the americans, and you ingore the fact that most of these scientist werent nazis.

working for the us sure beat the alturnative, being shot or working for the reds.

I've seen all of these A/C before except for the Republic XP-72.
Going by appearances alone it looks like a cross between a Mustang and Thunderbolt.

Imagine that one in the Reno air races.

Regarding the German Effort
Hitler was a poor executive in that he interferred with subordinates and manufacturers to such an extent he set back the German war effort two years in jet fighter development and deployment. Hitler was such an egoist that he foresaw no need for long range heavy bombers and escorts because the war was soon to be won.

Thank god he was the way he was because his scientist's and manufacturing base did have the ability to accomplish much more than they did given a better executive.

So do the United States right now too, which is what I don't like.

As for German tech, any country can make high tech weapons if given the time to research it. Germany made great fighter planes at first. So did Japan. And submarines. America made decent ones too, but America was behind in research in comparison to what the Germans knew, so their tanks and such weren't as good (though the P-51 Mustang aircraft was superior to the German counterpart I believe). The German long range missile though was copied by America because it was cheaper and simpler to make, and a superior design.

Russia made tanks that were better than the Germans' in some ways, and they make and continue to make damn decent aircraft.

Americans designed the Apollo program though; they advanced their research on their own and learned on their own. The Germans originally had been ahead in rocket tech, but afterwards they stopped. Germany continues to make very good tanks and guns though.

I'm suprised no one mentioned the XF5U
sfstation.members.easyspace.com...

[edit on 15-12-2004 by replicators]

Guys it don't matter what weapons the germans may or maynot have fielded in from late 1944 on, cause historically there was no fuel to fly them anyway. Even the much vaulted Me-262 which reached 1440 produced [by the end of the war], was only able to fly at most 100 at a time mainly due to lack of fuel [there were easly 300 -400 available]. After the allies targeted the german fuel industry they were kaput! Without fuel , army units can't move and tanks are stuck while planes are limited in flying meaning most replacement pilots get 1/3 the training so they just can't compete etc.


Now if you want to examine an interesting alternative history consider this. The Me-262 prototype was ready in 1942 , but had to wait for the jet engines to be developed , which didn't really happen until two years later in early 1944. If you track the development of the Jumo -004 jet engine developement, it was treated as an interesting 'experiment' through the first half of the war [starting in 1939/40]. SO much so that up to three major delays can be IDed in the development accumulating 18 months of delay. All of these delays were solved by singular person adding his suggestion to the develoment route...thus leading to solution. It was not until after Stalingrad in 1943 that Hitler all of a sudden had a revelation that he was losing and any thing and everything was needed including 'Total war economy' , 'V weapons' and jets guided missiles etc etc.

Right away guided missiles that were ready were put into service and within 1 year of that decision, the 'war economy' was in full swing and Me-262 jet was tested /developed and in mass production , while the V-1 was flying and the V-2 was ready for combat. It clearly shows what a difference can happen when 'push comes to shove'.

I gather Hitler saw the first Jet flights at the beginning of the war, and remarked that they would win the war with piston engines any way so the jets were not needed! Such blindness , lead to an experiment on the 'back burner',instead of a strategic program.

Now imagine for a moment, the Jet/Rocket/missile programs were recognised as a 'strategic program' from before the war, when they were first developed, so with such a priority there is none of the additional delays and these programs enter service atleast 18 months ahead of the historical dates!

Why would such an effort be made? Well look at germans strategic situation pre war. It depended on foreign allied countries for 3/4 of its oil supplies and was massively outnumbered by its combined enemies armed forces.Just 20 years prior it had lost a massive war were falling behind technologically had made the suffer immensely and partly cost them the war. Germany was as badly outnumbered as WW-I if not more so, thus help was clearly needed. High tech weapons , like the ones mentioned above, could have made a hugh difference! Of course Hitler saw german race and willpower as weapons and relied on them instead .

Consider instead if the german war effort had been run by groups as competant and practical as the Allied command was forced to be?Its not that much of a leap of logic as one might think.

Massive Synthetic fuel plants would have been put into production from the late 30s on using 'Hyrdogenation' exclusively, instead of part inefficent more costly 'Fischer Tropsch' plants. That would have netted fuel/oil self sufficency by the begining of the war and lead to a 50% increase in overall production /storage by late war [1944/45]. German combat operations would not have been constrained by the growing historical fuel shortages from 1942 on.

The war in 'France' and 'Battle of Britian', would have been used to kick in the 'total war economy' and push rocket/jet/missile programs to the front of development. Historically German economy did evolve into the total war but only over four years. If the option to 'total war' was selected in late 1940 as a result of the 'russia first policy, britain second' ,based on a more realistic appreciation of soviet war potential, then massive increase in production would have occured in 1942/43 not 44.

One way to simulate and study this effect, would be to advance all production historical figures atleast one year, but using the existing prodution types. So in 1941 , instead of 3700 '1941 tanks and spguns' produced and another 500 converted ,you have 7500 '1941 tanks and spguns' produced and converted.

On top of that massive production increase , you have a flood of high tech weapons emerging into the production lines. Short range radio Guided glide bombs mounted on Condor multi engined bombers scouring the oceans in at the end of 1941 /42 . In early/mid 1942 the Me-262 is ready for development along with V-1. Mass production of both items begins in early 1943.

The first Panzerfaust enter massive prodution in late 1942, a year ahead of service, while the PW-600 light ATGun enters massive production in late 1943/early 1944 , doubling ATgun production to 24,000 units. Meanwhile in 1944 about 8000 Panthers are produced and 12,000 Hetzers & 3000 waffentraggers [mounting 105 & 150mm Howitzers or 88mm ATguns] are produced along with 50,000 half tracks [1/2 SPW rest Mules] and 1/4 million other wheeled vehicles.

If you push back all the special high tech weapons by 18 months or so , you end up with ...

In late 1943 about 300-400 Me 262 jets operational each eqipped with an air to air R4M rocket battery.

By early 1944, about 900 Wasserfall radio guided SAMs [essentially a mini V-2 SAM] a month production capability launching from ~ 20 SAM sites.

Mid 1944 X-4 air to air wire guided missile would go into widespread use on the operational Me-262 jets [ 4 per jet] and the FW-190s [two per jet].

These changes alone , would halt American day light bombing raids and convert to night time bombing or tactical bombing support role leaving the german fuel industry intact. The radar tracking of the Wasserfall SAM would mean night bombing would become more costly, but it could be expected that allied bombers would eventually adapt the radio jamming technology developed to counter german antiship missiles , towards special 'Radio Wild Weasel' jamming B-17s.

In early 1944 the Me-262 production would be up to ~400 month , but now each would be produced as the two seater night fighter. Mean while through out mid to late 1944 , the FW Ta-183 jet/ interceptor would be developed and tested , ready for massive production with an anticipated monthly production of ~700 through out 1945. This single engined jet fighter was essentialy a Mig-15 jet with four X-4 AAMs each.

Initial success with the V-1 would show that these weapons would be only valuable as terror weapons since their accuracy/ payload was far worse than conventional bombers [ Each allied bomber was dropping 3-4 tons within 1500m CEP, while the V-1 was 1 ton within 13km CEP] and discontinued due to the cost vs merrit of these systems. Instead the developement effort would be split between the Wasserfall SAM [up to 5000 month production] and the Rheinbote SSM[~ 1500-2000 month production?].

The Rheinbote SSM would become in 1944 an Army Group massed rocket barrage weapon firing scores , several hundred km at detected enemy army buildups/staging areas or airfields etc. With a CEP of ~ 13km it would be of little value unless the radio guidance system historically developed for the V-2 SSM could be instead developed for the Rheinbot SSM, in which case CEP would be reduced to 5-7km radius.

In any event thats the flight of fancy that some consider with respects to WW-II high tech weapons, and what could have been done with better management. We are really lucky that dictators tend to surround them selves with 'yes men' and become deluded by tunnel vision, while democracys have harsh but healthy internal dialogues , that force a more global view to be taken and to avoid such embarracing problems occuring

[edit on 19-12-2004 by psteel]

[edit on 19-12-2004 by psteel]

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
i dont think von braun was "Forced" to work for the americans, and you ingore the fact that most of these scientist werent nazis.

working for the us sure beat the alturnative, being shot or working for the reds.

Ofcause he was forced, you said it yourself - it "sure beat the alturnative, being shot"

Someone who is forced does not ring your bell with a train full of V2. He wanted to get people into space and well, he made it.