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Is it the Israeli government or the people?

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posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 02:28 AM
I am avid in condemning Israel for every injustice imposed on the Palestinians. But at the same time I am aware that Israels Jewish citizens, for the most part are good and caring people. People like most of us. We must be careful NOT to condemn a whole people based on what 20-30% do. The people of Israel have no more control over their army or government then each of us do in our respective countries.

About a year ago I was traveling from Tel Aviv to the airport by train. Sitting next to me was a young woman going to the airport to meet her brother. I asked her about the "Palestinian issue"and why the government persecutes them . She was courteous but direct with her answer. She told me "You Americans are so niave. You think the government controls Israel?" I commented that I thought so. She told me she worked in army intelligence and said "the army controls the government with anything concerning the Palestinians." She further informed me she was an atheist.

Since I often travel to Israel for business (Diamonds) I have an opportunity to talk with many Israelis 70% of those I talk to believe there needs to be peace with the establishment of a Palestinian state. (although not one believed it will ever happen) Most of those I have talked with believe the settlers are the major obstacle to any peace agreement. That made sense to me as there are 500,000 settlers bent on expanding settlements throughout the West Bank. THEY are not interested in "peace"

Since I post so much negative information about the Israeli government and the IDF I might be viewed as "anti Jewish". I do consider myself "anti Israel" in the context of having a passion for pointing out the many terrible injustices imposed on the Palestinian people. But to be fair, many Israeli are trying to "build bridges to peace" here is one of them

As I come across more I will post them.

posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 03:04 AM
reply to post by gem_man

This is pretty much my viewpoint on Israel and Israeli citizens.

I personally don't care if people wish to worship a bunch of bananas as their god, and claim the holy bunch of Banaty (Banana's Real, secret name) created us and the Multiverse, so i really don't care what Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and all the other myriad religious castes choose to believe...i personally think the whole lot of them are bunk and superstitious nonsense..but each to their own.

The point is, i don't have an axe to grind with any group, including Jewish people.

I think it is very clear, from historical evidence that it is virtually always the governments, or rulers of a people who are responsible to giving the orders and setting social and foreign policy, and so they are the relative few who are ultimately responsible for atrocities committed in their name and on thier order.

There will always be the case of certain numbers of the people who are very much in bed with the regime, as you say, 20-30% sounds fair.
But are these fanatics among the people, or does this figure represent the proportion of the people who are gullible and easily swayed by government rhetoric?

Who knows...probably elements of both fanatical followers and the ignorant.

The numbers of Israeli people who remain neutral or opposed to the barbarity committed by the Israeli regime, must therefore be 50-80% of the population...which begs the question of how, if over half the population are opposed to the government and feel the revulsion most civilized people feel at their policies, how does it continue?

How does the 'opposed' majority allow it to continue?

Rigged elections?

Personal weakness and wavering?

Who knows.

posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 03:09 AM
I guess its just like in the U.S. How many of us are opposed to the war in Iraq. Even with our huge numbers there really isn't any thing we can do about it.

posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 03:21 AM
It is not only the Israeli government at fault here. In fact, I would argue that the Israeli government is less responsible than some of its citizens. Take for the illegal settlers. Also, most people of Israel know full well what their government is doing. Unlike in the US where the country is much larger and much more ignorant, Israel doesn't fool its citizens so much. They just tend to agree with it because of their religion. A large portion of the population is completely okay with the actions of their government because they feel that it is god's will.

With that being said, I know it isn't the entire population. In fact, many Israeli Jews are the biggest activists against what the settlers and government is doing.

My point here, is unlike the US where the government acts in its own interest or corporate and special interests, Israel's not so much. They can't fool their own people on the same scale that the US does (actually, no other country does, IMO). The people of Israel know full well what their government is doing and for the most part, they agree. Of course some do and some don't.

You can't really compare the way that their government operates with the way that the American government operates. The problem isn't the Israeli government, so much as it's the Zionist movement. All in all, this has nothing to do with Judaism, rather Judaism is used as a scape goat to push forward with Zionism. Zionism is the end goal.


posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 03:24 AM
IMHO the zionists are using the jewish people as they use everyone they can fool to deal with everyone they can't fool.

Israel's Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai has provoked outrage after threatening Palestinians with a "holocaust" but the same media who obsessed about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's "wipe Israel off the map" misquote are scurrying to defend Vilnai's disgraceful comments.

Zionists are not necessarily Jewish.
There are Zionist Christians for instance like the Rev. Hagee, who said Hitler was doing God's work by helping the Jews create Israel.
Also of course, one of Zionist Israel's biggest supporters was Hitler himself:

Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo.[3] [4] [5] [6] Hitler himself personally supported Zionism.[7] [8] During the 1930’s, in cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some 40 camps throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. As late as 1942 Zionists operated at least one of these officially authorized “Kibbutz” training camps[9] over which flew the blue and white banner which would one day be adopted as the national flag of “Israel”.[10]

The Transfer Agreement (which promoted the emigration of German Jews to Palestine) implemented in 1933 and abandoned at the beginning of WWII is an important example of the cooperation between Hitler’s Germany and international Zionism. [11] Through this agreement, Hitler’s Third Reich did more than any other government during the 1930’s to support Jewish development in Palestine and further the Zionist goals.

Hitler and the Zionists had a common goal: to create a world Jewish Ghetto as a solution to the Jewish Question.

Traditional Jews Are Not Zionists
Although there are those who refuse to accept the teachings of our Rabbis and will continue to support the Zionist state, there are also many who are totally unaware of the history of Zionism and its contradiction to the beliefs of Torah-True Jews.

Trolls, please take note...
I am quoting Jews.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Danbones]

posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 04:12 AM
Its the government and not the people.

If you say its the people then that's a pretty far-reaching generalisation.

Basically the same as saying all Muslims are to blame for suicide-bombings when clearly that is not the situation.

posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 08:14 AM
reply to post by gem_man

Thanks.. This thread is a gem in a sea of close minded threads.

reply to post by airspoon

The average Israeli is so ill informed that it's not even funny.
Israel has so many problems that it's very easy for a government to avoid dealing with whatever it doesn't want to deal with.. Add to that the fact that most Israelis feel the average Palestinian hates their guts and would kill them if given the chance, and you'll find that it's very easy to sway people's opinions here..
Let's take the fence for example.. Stupid fence was built on Palestinian land for millions of dollars, and now the Palestinians (rightfully) go to the Israeli high court, the court tells the government to move the fence back, and more millions are paid.
What is the average Israeli told on the matter? Not much.. Any bull# can be sold to someone who's afraid of being shot while driving down the road..

Same goes for the settlements.. You think just because Israel is small that things are more clear to see? Most Israelis don't even know where the settlements are built, or how far they are into Palestinian land, or how much hardship it causes to both sides..

reply to post by Danbones

Same goes for Zionism.. To the average Israeli (well actually, basically to all Israelis) Zionism means Patriotism. That's the meaning of the word, it's the love of the country, and has nothing to do with expending.
Problem is that there are sects in the public who wish to claim all of Israel including the west bank, etc.. What for, I don't know, but they're all religious people (if not all then 99%), and while they're some-what supported by the government, they don't represent the average Israeli, and they definitely don't represent Zionism.. It has more to do with the bible, and reuniting Israel to the way it was during the days of the bible, then anything else..
It's a strange ideology.

With respect,

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