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"Freedom of Worship": an attempt to force religion out of the public sphere?

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posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 08:46 PM
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Mark Twain used to say, "The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter — it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning."



Recent observers have noticed that President Obama had switched to the term "Freedom of Worship" when referring to the right to religious freedom. Some fear that this word change may be more than semantics, it may be the beginning of a movement to force religion out of the public square.




Obama Retreats From "Religious Freedom" to "Freedom of Worship"

Earlier this year, Ashley Samelson, international programs director for the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, wrote for First Things that the Obama administration was abandoning the traditional wording of “religious freedom” to the far narrower terminology of “freedom of worship.” As Samelson wrote her February 22 First Things article:

“Freedom of worship” first appeared in a high profile speech in Obama’s remarks at the memorial for the victims of the Fort Hood shooting last November, a few months after his Cairo speech. Speaking to the crowd gathered to commemorate the victims, President Obama said, “We're a nation that guarantees the freedom to worship as one chooses.” Given the religious tension that marked the tragic incident, it was not an insignificant event at which to unveil a new way of referring to our First Freedom.

Shortly after his remarks at Ft. Hood, President Obama left for his trip to Asia, where he repeatedly referred to “freedom of worship,” and not once to “freedom of religion.”

Not long after his return, “freedom of worship” appeared in two prominent speeches delivered by Secretary Clinton. In her address to Georgetown University outlining the Obama Administration’s human rights agenda she used “freedom of worship” three times, “freedom of religion,” not once. About a month later, in an address to Senators on internet freedom at the Newseum, the phrase popped up in her lingo once again.

The shift in terminology, though subtle, is very significant, because it can justifiably be interpreted to imply that religious freedom is restricted to the rites conducted in places of worship if only “freedom of worship” is being upheld. “Religious freedom” is a much broader concept, extending to the expression of one’s beliefs in many areas of life. Again, in the words of Samelson:

To anyone who closely follows prominent discussion of religious freedom in the diplomatic and political arena, this linguistic shift is troubling.

The reason is simple. Any person of faith knows that religious exercise is about a lot more than freedom of worship. It’s about the right to dress according to one’s religious dictates, to preach openly, to evangelize, to engage in the public square. Everyone knows that religious Jews keep kosher, religious Quakers don’t go to war, and religious Muslim women wear headscarves—yet “freedom of worship” would protect none of these acts of faith.

Those who would limit religious practice to the cathedral and the home are the very same people who would strip the public square of any religious presence. They are working to tear down roadside memorial crosses built to commemorate fallen state troopers in Utah, to strip “Under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, and they recently stopped a protester from entering an art gallery because she wore a pro-life pin.

Read more: The New American




[edit on 7/19/10 by FortAnthem]




posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 12:17 AM
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*sigh* I hate evangelicals. I hate people who use thier "beliefes" as a way to force themselves on other people. That said, I strongly believe that everyone has the right to say what they want on public grounds and everyone has the right to tell such folk to bugger off and get a life.

If I were to be acosted by Jesus freaks on the street, I would shake my head and tell them to leave me alone. If they don't, it is assult. Beyond that, why should I care about them?



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 01:05 AM
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LOL

obama doesnt have the balls to force religion out of this world

the reality is that obama doesnt have the balls to improve the US or anything, so I doubt he would plan on doing that

lets not forget that, if we didnt have religion, people would start asking questions, instead of being sheeple

people prefer to listen than to use their brain



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by Faiol
LOL

obama doesnt have the balls to force religion out of this world



Obama is a tool of TPTB, he'll do whatever they tell him to do.

It's scary to see how many people, even here on this forum, seem to feel that religion is something that should be practiced only in church or the privacy of one's own home. They claim to become physically ill just from seeing someone saying a prayer before eating or, God forbid, out in public somewhere!


Praying quietly to yourself is hardly forcing religion on anyone. If you disapprove, just turn the other way and don't pay attention.

There's no need to ban religion in public.



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 06:38 PM
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Well, FA. I doubt you and I agree on many other things, but that's a good call.

I'm a libertarian. I favor religious freedom. Freedom of worship is strictly less than that.

Thank you for the heads-up. S&F.



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 10:26 PM
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Of the people,
by the people,
for the people.

And NOWHERE in that does it include,

corporations,
god or
morality police.

Get the filth of religion back where it belongs,
back in your own home toilet.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 12:03 PM
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The problem i see is that it narows religion even more. There are many religions besides the religions based on the bibles. Taoists and buddhists do not worship anyone, would that mean that they were trying to take away their rights? This is the same reason why the buddhists do not want creationalisim taught in school, because the christians (and dawkins fan boys) think religion means christianity.

[edit on 21-7-2010 by zaiger]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 12:33 PM
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Obama is just a snake-oil salesman.

He jumps on the scene, like the kool-aid pitcher and all the kids go "yay!" and hold their glass out.

Let's be honest. Obama has switched up his religion more times that a shuffle goes through a playlist on your mp3 player.

The plan for control is simple. Isolate everyone. Every religion knows that strength in numbers is a real thing. So in order to control the population you:

Destroy God
Replace God with some other faith based entity (currency)
Destroy Community
Destroy Family
Destroy Confidence

Once an indivdual feels alone in this world, they become your slave. This is why the general populous tattles on each other versus building each other up.

Divided we fall.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 12:47 PM
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let's see...

Religion has forced nudity out of the public sphere.

Religion forced gayness from the public sphere for centuries.

There's a lot of stuff religion has forced out and demonized.

Religion has no place in the public sphere: it is or should be a private matter between yourself and whatever diety/dieties you subscribe to. Whenever religion is pushed into the public sphere, it is done for purposes of controlling others' behaviors: my god says what you like to do is evil, so you can't do it.

Quit worrying about it and trying to impose your rules on others: I don't jack off in public and neither should you. I just sent two bible-thumpers packing from my door after telling them to go out and actually do something for others and quit with the religious masturbation on my doorstep.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by zroth

Obama is just a snake-oil salesman.

He jumps on the scene, like the kool-aid pitcher and all the kids go "yay!" and hold their glass out.

Let's be honest. Obama has switched up his religion more times that a shuffle goes through a playlist on your mp3 player.

The plan for control is simple. Isolate everyone. Every religion knows that strength in numbers is a real thing. So in order to control the population you:

Destroy God
Replace God with some other faith based entity (currency)
Destroy Community
Destroy Family
Destroy Confidence

Once an indivdual feels alone in this world, they become your slave. This is why the general populous tattles on each other versus building each other up.

Divided we fall.


I gave up on religion long ago. I have my beliefs. They are distinctly my own. I rarely share my beliefs with others and when I do, it is always in the context of a philosophical or theological conversation. I am not ashamed of what I believe, I just have no desire or need to be validated by anyone.

I have no issue with people who express themselves differantly, bu they should not be the slightest bit surprised when I tell them to bugger off. I don't see why that is so hard, really. Apacheman had it right. Tell them to go away.

I draw the line at courthouses with 10 commandments or publicly funded teachers preaching religious concepts as "science". That is not the role of government.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by apacheman
 




Religion has forced nudity out of the public sphere.

I take it you do not know much about art or religion... I would post pictures but im not going to go there. There is plenty of nudity in christian art. Stalin made it a capital offence to import porn into soviet russia and he was an atheist.



Religion forced gayness from the public sphere for centuries.

I take it you have never been to california and are not aware of the gay pride parades that are held all around the united states. Stalin was an atheist and he outlawed homo sexuality in soviet russia. North Korea is being run by an atheist and is a religion free state, talking about homosexuality is forbiden.



my god says what you like to do is evil, so you can't do it.

No...things do not work like that.



Quit worrying about it and trying to impose your rules on others: I don't jack off in public and neither should you. I just sent two bible-thumpers packing from my door after telling them to go out and actually do something for others and quit with the religious masturbation on my doorstep.


OMG you told off some religious folk? Tough guy, do you feel better about yourself now? Are you upset because you think religion is stopping you from masturbating in public?

[edit on 21-7-2010 by zaiger]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 


Actually, what I told them was that my people welcomed Christians into our land, fed them, sheltered them, healed them. In return, Christians grabbed our children by the heels and smashed their brains out against rocks, paid for the scalps of our women, children, old ones, stole our lands, and insulted our ways of life.

He tried to tell me the crap about those not being real Christians to which I replied that they were as real as they get: they id'd themselves as Christians and were the most common sort in both history and throughout my life. I've met two, count 'em, two Christians in my life that actually abided by the teachings. The rest were liars, thieves, and untrustworthy folk who constantly get into other folks' business instead of tending to their own spiritual knitting.

I also told them I was taught in both ways and the difference in the teachings was that in the old ways we are taught that the world isn't ours to do with as we please, that we are a small part of it and need to care for it, not that dominion was handed to us to lord over it in the name of some deity. We also have no forgiveness or free passes for doing bad, so we try very hard not to do bad things in the first place.

I asked them why they at my door talking instead of out helping, actually doing something to show their faith by example instead of jerking off at my door. They intruded upon me without my invitation, wasting my time with hateful, judgmental nonsense bred in a backwards land in a backwards time that has brought little but misery to the world.

So believe whatever you like, but keep it out of my face, my ears, and my presence.

If I want to know about it, I'll ask.

And especially, keep your mores and cultural quirks to yourself and stop trying to impose them on others.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by apacheman
 


I take it you are of native american descent, I know for years the public school systems have loved to portray the native americans as victims of the white man. The sad truth is scalping was an indian practice, the native americans enslaved each other and had their own native american slave trade, they also bought black slaves. The indians were killing each other and being horrible to each other long before the white man came. Just like Stalin killed people he did not like the native americans did the same thing it has nothing to do with christians.
So do you still hold grudges against tribes that waged war on your people?



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 07:27 PM
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Zaiger - Two wrongs do not make a right. One needs only to research Native American boarding schools in Canada to know that you must not know what you are talking about.

reply to post by apacheman
 


That’s the harsh truth and some people don’t like to hear it.

Soliciting would not be used by any religion, in my ideal world.

I am very torn on the issue of “Freedom of Religion”. Religion to me is a personal matter and should therefore remain where most personal matters remain. In the home.

On the other hand, I do not want to strip all public places of religion.

I can’t have it both ways I know. So I try to keep from forcing my beliefs on others and hope that others will do the same. I find myself biting my tongue more often than not.

If only we could come together and realize it truly does not matter what anyone else worships, as long as we treat others the way we would wish to be treated. It does not matter what we think, but rather how we act.


[edit on 21-7-2010 by worlds_away]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 07:53 PM
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The Laws of the Nation States are derived from God. As much as the laws of any religion...with the difference being that our Constitution is valid, while the laws of religions are not valid.

The US Constitution should not be forced to contend with foreign laws and customs any longer. And direct challenges should be considered aggression from a foreign state.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 


Yes, I'm Apache (duh).

I can't speak for the practices of other tribes, but mine didn't practice scalping or headhunting until we learned it from the Spanish.

We also didn't hold much with slavery: prisoners were usually adopted into the tribe if they were fit and useful, and had the right attitudes.

Lumping all Native Americans together is as silly as lumping all Africans or Europeans into one monolithic block.

Scalping and headhunting were long-established European practices, entered into with gusto here. People like to talk about how "savage" we were, but neglect to reflect on the fact that the European Christians developed torture to a fine art, inventing highly specialized mechanical devices intended to prolong the victims' lives in excruciating pain to sate the sadism of their priestly sociopaths.

To me, Christianity is as evil as it gets, with no redeeming qualties whatsoever.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 


Yes, I'm Apache (duh).

I can't speak for the practices of other tribes, but mine didn't practice scalping or headhunting until we learned it from the Spanish.

We also didn't hold much with slavery: prisoners were usually adopted into the tribe if they were fit and useful, and had the right attitudes.

Lumping all Native Americans together is as silly as lumping all Africans or Europeans into one monolithic block.

Scalping and headhunting were long-established European practices, entered into with gusto here. People like to talk about how "savage" we were, but neglect to reflect on the fact that the European Christians developed torture to a fine art, inventing highly specialized mechanical devices intended to prolong the victims' lives in excruciating pain to sate the sadism of their priestly sociopaths.

To me, Christianity is as evil as it gets, with no redeeming qualties whatsoever.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 09:45 PM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Be careful what you wish for. Religions are not exactly flavor of the month with most intelligent, open minded folks. However, pranks are.

I look for religious freedom to be maintained and await eagerly the first public wiccan festivals...hehe.. the evangencials will choke on their own tongues if that happens.

Seriously though, if your faith is strong why do you need symbols and icons ?

Simply hold your deity in your heart.....



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by apacheman
 




I can't speak for the practices of other tribes, but mine didn't practice scalping or headhunting until we learned it from the Spanish.

Not really true the native americans did not write anything down really. But tribal warfare and raiding settlements was not something new when the spanish came.



slavery: prisoners were usually adopted into the tribe if they were fit and useful, and had the right attitudes.

What a load of BS, they held slaves period. There was no "we are going to take you and make you work for us if you will be friends". I have heard simmilar comments made about black slavery and it is just as laughable.



Lumping all Native Americans together is as silly as lumping all Africans or Europeans into one monolithic block.

Yet it is okay to do with christians?



Scalping and headhunting were long-established European practices, entered into with gusto here.

So you guys did it but it is okay because it was not your idea? That is a cop out.



People like to talk about how "savage" we were,

I did not bring that up but since you did, it was because the cultures were so different and that the native americans had no writting system or technology. But savages was used the same way barbarian was used, back in rome anything that was not roman was a barbarian.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 10:05 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 



How can you say that it isn't true that we didn't practice scalping or heading prior to the Spanish? There isn't a shred of evidence that Apaches scalped anyone before the Spanish came, and on the other hand our habit of adopting prisoners is well-documented.

Some tribes practiced slavery, but it wasn't as endemic or as brutal as the Old World practices. Tribes fought and raided, but seldom if ever practiced the all-out genocidal wars favored by the Euros.

Of course it is hard to determine with precisionwhat the Pre-Contact civilizations were truly like, since the extremely unsanitary barbarians from the East brought so many filth-related diseases with them they killed 90-95% of everyone on both continents of the Americas by the time they could be bothered to make any notes of what was there before they trashed the place. The fact Christian bigots burned every Native American book, quipu, and other recording device they could find, thus depriving humanity of millenia of research, history, and specialized knowledge, doesn't help either.



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