Vaccine Patches

Look, there is no where we can go with this.

You seem to think arbitrarily assigning some data to one variable out of an infinite number proves something, as you are expected to do by the 'experts'.

You call me paranoid because I doubt the integrity of institutions with massive agendas, financial and otherwise.

You have linked to media showcase articles chanting the successes of vaccines based on supposition, using cherry picked data with no references. This is nothing more than vaccine PR.

The fact that you find it so hard to link me to something REALLY BLOODY CONCRETE should be warning sirens for any thinking person with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Given we vaccinate hundreds of millions of people all over the world every single year, many of them newborn and under 2 years old, with questionable substances that are routinely PULLED FROM DISTRIBUTION DUE TO CONTAMINATION AND SERIOUS PROVEN SIDE EFFECTS, only to be replaced with other questionable substances later to also be retracted and sold off cheap to Brazil or India .... SHOULDN'T IT BE THE EASIEST THING IN THE WORLD for any literate person to read the PROVEN, CONCLUSIVE SCIENTIFIC STUDIES AND DATA and pass that along to anyone who asks?

So far, in a page of replies, you've not managed once to link anything like that. Either you can't find anything, or you're too complacent in your blanket trust of Pharma and Govt. Health Services, or you just can't be bothered?

It's the same response and weak argument I've seen in every single vaccine thread that I've bothered sticking around in since registering on ATS in 2007.

Peace bro', U2U me if you find something worthy of reading. Ciao for now.

reply to post by RogerT


Is it really that hard to do a quick PubMed search, Roger? You seem to have a nearly pathologic aversion to science:

Efficacy and safety of 2009 H1N1 vaccine

Efficacy and safety of polio vaccine

Efficacy and safety of new smallpox vaccine

As for necessity, I challenge you to show that these diseases were "going away on their own" when vaccination was begun. Don't you find it the least bit curious that every disease we develop a vaccine magically drops off as soon as the vaccine is produced? If all of these diseases were dropping off at about the same time, I might say you have a slight argument. However, polio declined when the polio vaccine was introduced, but small pox only declined when the small pox vaccine was introduced. Similarly, neither of these time periods seemed to show a major decline in meningitis C, until the vaccine was introduced. In an identical situation, pertussis only declined toa large degree when the DTP vaccine was introduced. How do you explain all of the disease reduction at very different time periods, all of which coincide EXACTLY with the introduction of a vaccine therapy?

Thanks for the replies guys and it seems there are 2 camps when dealing with the issue of vaccinations. I share perspectives with both. I am grateful for such advances in medicine but I have a healthy mistrust with the Pharm industry too so and I have seen profits come before people too many times. So in this case I praise the delivery system, but am partially skeptical of what will be put in them. I guess any major advancement will come with good and bad, let's just hope altruism continues to carry this advancement to better humanity.

Peace


[edit on 21-7-2010 by speculativeoptimist]

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


I don't have time for all 3, so please pick your best candidate.
Can you also tell me how to use pubmed to read the entire paper rather than the abstract.
Thanks.

As for the timing issue you raised: pick any point on a descending straight line, you can even pick the point 99.5% towards the end of the line (think measles). Now lop off the bit before the point you picked. Now it looks like you picked the beginning of the fall doesn't it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of vaccine PR

[edit on 21/7/10 by RogerT]

[edit on 21/7/10 by RogerT]

[edit on 21/7/10 by RogerT]

reply to post by RogerT


Wait, wait...you accuse ME of picking and choosing data, and then you want to do the same? No, I won't "pick one" of the vaccines. Your claim is that NO vaccine has worked, and I'm providing you with multiple examples. Either deal with them all, or admit you made a sweeping statement with not data to support it.

As for the "line graph" you proposed, that's very disingenuous. The drop-off in polio and meningitis C wasn't a line graph. It was an inverse exponential graph. There was a slow, gradual decline until the point the vaccine was introduced, and then you saw a MASSIVE drop off, like falling off of a cliff. Just look at the data from the ten years preceding the vaccine and the ten years following it.

As for PubMed, if you aren't a member (staff/student) of a university, you probably need to access PubMed at the public library or a university library. Both places offer free access to the vast majority of the papers on PubMed.

It's also a bit telling about your "research" if you don't even know how to use PubMed. How, exactly, were you reading actual science to base your opinions on, assuming you read anything other than NaturalNews?

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


Ahem...www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by RMFX1


Beat by less than a day..Doh! I did do a search and I am surprised I was allowed to post since we both have a similar title. Oh well I will reference your thread as the original one. Looks like there are similar responses, always controversial.

Peace

Edit To Add: A thread has already been started by RMFX1:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I tried to put this in my original post but the "edit" feature has expired.


[edit on 21-7-2010 by speculativeoptimist]

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Again you assume I live in the US after having been corrected in another thread. It's even in my avatar comments that I don't! I wonder what it takes for you to hear someone who doesn't agree with you?

I asked specifically for the best example of a study due to lack of time - I'm not trying to cherry pick data and frankly can't understand why you would insinuate that.

If you like, I can just pick one from your links, and if it turns out to be unsupportive of your claims, then I will discount the rest as equally garbage, hence my requesting you pick the best one for the job. I can see you don't read my posts, but did you actually read any of the studies yourself?

Well I would do that, but as I can't access anything other than the abstract, I guess I won't!

As for the inaccessibility of your offered evidence: Is this your technique, post a bunch of links that don't actually lead to study data and then claim you provided it? How do you think I should visit your public library to view these studies ... get on a plane tomorrow and fly half way across the world?

If you're going to comment on graphical data, perhaps you should post it first. All the charts I've seen, and posted in previous threads, using full available data from health departments in US, UK, Australia etc, clearly show NO STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT ACCELERATION of disease decline at vaccine introduction.

I suspect this post will be just as fruitless as all my others in debate with you. My experience is you make a lot of noise upfront but don't care much for follow through.

edit to add:

You know what. I get so tired of posting to correct your misreading and misquoting of my posts, your apparent lack of ability to discern meaning from simple and succinct sentences, claiming I wrote things I didn't, asking you to deliver on promises made, etc, I really don't wish any further interaction.

I'm still very interested to read any decent study showing convincing evidence that any vaccine is:
1. Effective
2. Necessary
3. Safe
if anyone would be interested in U2U'ing it, as I will not be checking into this thread any more

[edit on 21/7/10 by RogerT]

Originally posted by RogerT
reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

 

Again you assume I live in the US after having been corrected in another thread. It's even in my avatar comments that I don't! I wonder what it takes for you to hear someone who doesn't agree with you?

What does not being in the United States have to do with anything I've posted? PubMed is an international research repository, hence why there are plenty of Japanese, Chinese, German, and Russian language journals, to name a few examples, stored there.

I asked specifically for the best example of a study due to lack of time - we aren't all glued to pubmed for a living, get over it! If you like, I can just pick one, and if it turns out to be unsupportive of your claims, then I will discount the rest as equally garbage, hence my requesting you pick the best one for the job.

So, what you're saying is, you're going to cherrypick the data, find one thing that you can counter with a whale.to or naturalnews.com article (:lol, and then claim that your ONE point of contention invalidates ALL vaccine research and progress?

Wow, and you think [n]I am the one with a personal bias? Jesus Christ!

I can see you don't read my posts, but did you actually read any of the studies yourself

Yes to both of those questions. I've read your posts, and the studies. What of it?

As for the inaccessibility of your offered evidence: Is this your technique, post a bunch of links that don't actually lead to study data and then claim you provided it? How do you think I should visit your public library to view these studies ... get on a plane tomorrow and fly half way across the world?

The links I provided DO lead directly to the studies. You can view them there, or on the website of that specific journal. How exactly do you propose I show you the studies, considering it is illegal (as I was once reminded by a mod on this board) to circumvent copyright law and post my own PDF copy on the boards? Are you suggesting I should pirate the studies for you and distribute them for free?

Also, whichever country your in has free, public libraries and university libraries, and nearly all western nations with such libraries have extensive journal subscription programs. Some libraries even allow you to access them through their website (e-journals) so long as you enter your library card number.

Even back home in Russia, our public libraries have wonderful journal subscriptions. Are you honestly telling me you have no libraries, no internet access (which I KNOW is not true, in your case) no universities, and no medical schools in your area? Also, if you are just DYING to read research, there is a nifty little box on the righthand side of the PubMed site where you can choose only to view free items. If you're in a pinch, this can work, should you ever use this search engine in the future.

If you're going to comment on graphical data, perhaps you should post it first. All the charts I've seen, using full available data from health departments in US, UK, Australia etc, clearly show NO STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT ACCELERATION of disease decline at vaccine introduction.

No problem:
Polio Data and Charts
Polio source

In the case of polio, you will see in this source that in 1952, there were 21,000 cases. The vaccine was introduced in 1955. In 1960, there were 2525 cases (an 88% drop), and in 1965 there were 61 cases (a 99.8% drop from 1952 and a 98& drop from 1960). Since 1979, there have been ZERO naturally occurring cases of polio in the United States.

If you'll look a the first link, you'll notice that while polio cases did fluctuate year to year, they never did so beyond about 50%, often much less. However, in 1955, we see an 88% decrease, followed by a quick tapering off, with cases being in the single digits within a decade of the vaccine's introduction.

I suspect this post will be just as fruitless as all my others in debate with you. My experience is you make a lot of noise upfront but don't care enough to follow through.

And my experience with you is that anytime I do follow through, you pretend that waving your hand and making a snide, off-topic comment makes all the data go away. How puerile.

[edit on 7/21/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]