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posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 07:16 PM
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The envy and whining on this thread offends me. Maybe you dont have much - but its not the middle class you should be angry with - they provide the jobs for people.

200 acres? Oh wow - how opulent and blah blah on and on. Sorry - but where I'm from, 200 acres isnt considered big enough to turn a tractor around on. Besides - who cares? It is good to see at least some people have managed to escape total destruction and leave with something.

The OP added something to society, and if he gets a bit back - good for him. How about the bankers, who add nothing, but steal trillions? How about govt taxes used for wars?

I cant understand how people can turn on the very people who have provided jobs and goods in their community.

If you have nothing and are struggling - that might not be your fault, but it certainly isnt the fault of people like the OP.




posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by Amagnon
 

Thank you Amagnon. I was tempted to write yet another angry rant to those who just couldn't stand seeing someone stop supporting the same system they claim to hate. As if a "job" were something you own and are entitled to rather than an agreement between two sovereign individuals either of whom can terminate the relationship at any time if their personal situation changes. Then they had the audacity to call the guy a "moocher", even though all he did was produce, that is create wealth, the very thing that made the country prosperous, and then chose to retire and enjoy the fruits of all the work he did. People really need to look in a # mirror before they say things like that.

I guess I did write another mini-rant.



[edit on 20-7-2010 by NewlyAwakened]



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by Amagnon
 


They are mad because they lost a source of loot.



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 07:46 PM
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I'm not pissed that they got out of the system. I'm pissed that they're bitching about it and then partaking of the system they're bitching about.

Hypocrites rarely make sense.

I live on .1 acre... That's my space and I'm happy to have it... For someone to complain about their 200 acres that they have to retire to doesn't live in the same world as I, nor anyone I associate with.

To me, it's very much like rich people complaining about their polo club being remodeled. Oh the inconvenience!

Sorry that you were inconvenienced by having to retire to such a hovel due to the government taking all your money...

It boils down to where you've been and where you are now. If you're complaining about that, then you haven't SEEN hard times. Or if you have, then you've forgotten where you came from and Karma needs to send you a reminder, because you're overdue...



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by grahag
I'm not pissed that they got out of the system. I'm pissed that they're bitching about it and then partaking of the system they're bitching about.


Yeah, as if he had a choice in the matter.

Being a hypocrite would entail NOT paying for those services, then using them.

Considering he paid for them 100 times the amount you probably did (since he was as business owner), I'd say he is more entitled to use them than you are.

That is of course unless you are a well-to-do business owner that has paid excessive taxes all your life.

This is the problem with government, you have no choice in the matter.

Don't agree with the war? TO bad, fork it over buddy.

Don't agree with locking people up for using drugs? To bad, you pay for the police enforcement of those laws.

Don't agree with socialist security? To bad, you have no choice. Give me your loot pal. You will participate even if you don't want to.

The odds are he will NEVER get all the money back that he put into socialist security (and neither will you).


[edit on 20-7-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by Phedreus

I agree that a man cannot serve two masters, but I take it a step further, Man should serve no master but himself.



reply to post by grahag

While many people are wondering if they'll have to retire at 72 and eat cat food to stay alive, you're complaining about socialism from your 200 acre ranch.


I've read through this entire thread, and I have found it extremely intriguing. For that reason, I have flagged it. I haven't given the OP a star, however, as I cannot fully endorse everything that Mr. Phedreus says. My main concerns are summed up neatly by the quote from one of his posts in this thread. I've also quoted a sentence from another contributor; a quote that I believe very neatly sums up the conflict that is the beating heart of this debate.

What can I add to the thread?

Probably not a great deal. I'm not a business owner, and have no aspirations to be such a thing. I spent my formative years in rural England, hating school, and finding it mostly useless, however I didn't have the drive or the sense to start trying to uncover the real education that I (and everyone else) needs until it fell into my lazy lap via the internet.

I am a fundamentalist Christian (and of course there are now about 50% fewer people reading this post). Why am I bothering to say that? Because it's only with a literally Biblical worldview that the historical, current and future events of this world can be understood. Our OP is on one hand a victim of the ongoing process of globalization/standardization/demoralizing/dehumanizing/etc/etc.... that will result in the global political and religious system that is clearly laid out in the Bible. On the other hand, he displays the very self same attribute that is the driving force behind what has brought his business to its knees....

He is his own god.

Like all other false gods, the god of self will eventually disappear in smoke when the one and only true God finally calls time on this drama of the ages.

America is an absolutely fascinating dichotomy. Founded by deists and freemasons, littered from the start with symbolism that makes it amazing to me that anyone really believes that it was EVER a "Christian" nation. America grew to become something that the rest of the world drooled over and spat at with equal fervor. The worship of money and self are woven into the foundation of this nation that is now crumbling before our eyes. Yet at the same time MILLIONS of individual Americans have lived lives of incredible generosity; working immensely hard for something that they believe in to the core of their beings.....

Freedom.

The bitter truth is though that America has NEVER been free. The illusion of freedom has driven the engines of capitalism, creating riches out of which false wealth has magically been waved into existence. The American Dream was aptly named - a dream (ultimately nightmare) indeed!

So here we have our OP. Truth or fiction, the story he tells is an endgame result of the American experiment. The collapse of all who worship self before others - and money immediately after self - hold dear. Some of the contributors to this thread have explained it very well. No business - small OR big - is set up to provide jobs for the masses. All commerce is birthed out of the desire of one individual person or group of people to make lots of money by exploiting resources and selling the results for the maximum profit possible. Sure, there are many business leaders who have a genuine desire to be as charitable as possible, but if their businesses don't make a healthy profit, just how (financially) charitable can they be?

And that is why pure capitalism is ultimately far more evil than pure socialism. A purely capitalistic society opens more doors for more people to greedily exploit everything and everyone around them than any other society. Of course, we still have individual evil that far outweighs systematic evil (Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot), but personally I'd far rather live in a benevolent social state than a cutthroat, winner takes all, capitalistic state like America is still thought to be by some. However as one commenter rightly pointed out, America hasn't been purely capitalistic for decades.

So, over these last few decades, we have seen the shadow government of the world directing America from "freedom" to "socialism". The "environmental" movement has been used as a driving force of this process. Many of the taxes and regulations that our OP has flipped the bird to have been put in place in the guise of "green" policies.

So with the gods of self, money and "mother earth" filling our minds, which are already pickled beyond belief by our "entertainment" and "education" industries, here we have it.

187 people out of work. One family scuttling off to their 200 acres to watch the collapse of civilization from the sidelines. And here is ATS - turning it into a false war between political systems and ideologies.

God first.
Family second.
Everyone else third.
Self last.


As the strings get tugged harder and harder from behind the scenes, and the stage gets set for the ultimate puppet master to stride onto the scene, no other approach to life is going to bring anything other than misery and despair.

I hope and pray that everyone here realizes that before it is too late. Live for yourself and whatever you can get out of life, and you will die empty handed.

Here endeth today's sermon.

Take it or leave it.



[edited to share the lyrics of a song I am listening to that seemed quite appropriate...]



Feels Like Treason

Life is just a joke
Dreams go up in smoke
It hasn’t taken too long to descend
This unholy circus will end

Feels like treason to the human race
Sense or reason must be outta place
It’s a nightmare
It runs dark & deep
Goin’ nowhere down a one way street

Thoughts I can’t express
Words mean even less
Nothin’ is sacred & you can depend
This unholy circus will end

Feels like treason to the human race
Sense or reason must be outta place
It’s a nightmare
It runs dark & deep
Goin’ nowhere down a one way street

Chances taken, we’re just waitin’
Contemplatin’ now
The beginning of the end
And the history wrapped up in old glory
And become yesterday’s friend


Tony Clarkin



[edit on 7/20/2010 by illimey]



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by truthquest

No, it isn't. In fact there are hundreds of thousands pages of business regulations. There are hundreds of thousands of pages of business taxes. There are literally hundreds of tax forms a typical small business must file each year starting in 2011 because of the new Obamacare tax laws.


Hundreds of thousands of pages of business regulations... somehow I doubt this is so for every single business. And even if every single business is itself beholden to hundreds of thousands of pages of regulations... it seems either these regulations are common-sense and DON'T inhibit businesses much OR they aren't enforced much/at all. So what's the problem? I'm not saying all regulations are a good thing... I'm sure there's a good deal of unnecessary bureaucracy, red-tape, and even oppressive regulation, but at the same time, in a world such as ours with SO many people and SO much room for businesses to act unethically towards people/lifeforms that don't deserve it, many regulations are needed in markets in order to protect the common man and the living environment.

As for small businesses having to file hundreds of tax forms each year after 2011... I'm going to have to remain skeptical until you provide proof of your claim.



The OP in this case is a genius because he is seeing ahead of time that changes like the 1099 forms will cause him to stop being able to make a profit. He'd be a fool to keep in business because government programs never get repealed. People who think Obamacare is going to get repealed seem to have forgotten about the department of education and Ronald Reagan.


I'm not saying he shouldn't have made an intelligent business decision... it may very well have been the right move. My contention was with his lashing out at "moochers" and "parasites" and generally at "socialism" as the cause of his downfall , it just strikes me as callous and uneducated and therefore unnecessary/wrong. However, I did offer my openness to him proving the causes of his business's downfall.



The American dream is dead. And it is because capitalism in America died in something like the year 1965. And what do you know, that is the same time when the middle class started getting stomped down. Coincidence? No. Capitalism gave us the middle class and now the lack of capitalism in America will destroy the middle class in America. Thats right, America and other socialist countries like France & Greece will be destroyed into the 2-class system they emerged from. Though it would be fair to say America is more Fascist than socialist as the welfare goes to corporations in America.


I think that the capitalist American dream was a lie. Just because there may have been a vibrant middle-class during the 50's/60's doesn't mean that Capitalism is a good thing or that it is sustainable even economically. In the early days of industrialization there were TERRIBLE things going on being committed by businesses, factories, and markets that would NOT have regulated themselves short of a workers' revolt (which is sorta what happened...). Even to this day, the lack of regulation has caused SERIOUS problems for our economy, our rights/freedoms, and our ecosystems. Regardless of any of Capitalism's benefits, it has proven a failure in-practice within our society; at least when we give it a purist/free-reign approach. Voting with your dollar is NOT Democracy.



The only places resembling capitalism are Singapore and Hong Kong. Thats it. The United States is not capitalist. Now that capitalism is getting snuffed out completely in the USA the only possible result is for the middle class to get snuffed out completely. Its sad that you are not looking at all the studies, data, and information showing how capitalism reduces poverty and increases the middle class.


The strength of the middle class is NOT a solely Capitalist production, in fact, Capitalism seems to wear down the middle class in its own unique ways. Many movements in the early 20th century to improve working conditions, pay, workers rights, environmental health, worker/consumer health/safety, and so on have given many of the greatest boosts to the middle class. The development of the middle class has been a back and forth between government regulations/initiatives that protect the little guy and business initiatives/prosperity that take care of and retain a good workforce. And to be honest, speaking as an Anarchist, the whole thing kind of disgusts me regardless of whether it benefits a middle class. The whole system is oppressive where the populace has to fight tooth and nail against government and business for small gains and table scraps. There's really not much dignity in the middle class, and especially the lower class... and it just so happens that 90% of humanity makes up those brackets. Something should tell us that the whole thing still ain't workin. And we continue to re-arrange deck-chairs on the Titanic...



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by illimey
 




He is his own god.







Like all other false gods, the god of self will eventually disappear in smoke when the one and only true God finally calls time on this drama of the ages.


While this is truly an aside from the thread, I would like to make a short response. If you wish to debate this further I suggest we make a new thread, or do it u2u.

I said that the only master man should have is himself. God created man in his own image; he imbued him with his spirit, a being of self awareness. He must be the master of himself, allowing no other to be his master for him to worship purely and without restraint his god.



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by illimey
 


self first
family second
God can take care of herself



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by Phedreus
 


oooh, herself? Why even apply gender to that which is spirit and not flesh.

Unrelated.


Point is you should be proud you did the only logical thin in a given situation and forget the rest. Ride out the storm till better times, then start over.

Times are repeating themselves. it's 1907 all over again. I'd advise you to open business when it is over, but understand that there WILL be a worse depression 20 years down the road. If you're old enough then, retire.



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by ldyserenity
 


It sounds like phaedrus really hit a nerve with you, like you might think he still owes you something. Who the hell are you to critizise someone that you would slander and libel for not supporting you while you sit on your butt. You and odogma are birds of a feather, not satisfied untill the last penney is pinched from the hand of those that provided the energy, the drive, the impetus, the creativity, the means and the will to build. Enjoy your handouts while they last, the free rides are coming to a screeching halt
and if you havn't prepared then shame on you. I wonder, do you have a family? Any children? If so then you should beg their forgiveness as you explain to them that the burden that you refused to bear is a yoke that they will inherit, while you sold them into slavery. That sir is child abuse, you should serve time. I think an appropriate punishment should be.................WORK.........nuff said

YouSir



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 11:08 PM
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Big applause!!!

Maybe the big corporations can pick up the tab? They pay the lobbyists who pay the government to make it extremely difficult for small and medium-sized business to compete. They are the ones that got bailed out - instead of having to suck it up like a small business - balance the books or go bankrupt... Hell, if they hadn't gotten bailed out, some smart, smaller companies could have picked up the pieces.

The OP did his part for the time he had a company; quite obviously the government did not do its part.

The government is only looking out for its own interests, which ties into the big businesses - same thing that goes on in Eastern Europe - fixation on big business. It's the small and medium sized business that form the true backbone of any economy. Big companies become less productive, less innovative, and hit the Law/Wall of Diminishing Returns.

The OP looks out for himself and his family; as I do mine. I look out after others to the extent that I can - but the axiom of being able to help ANYONE is to actually be in a position to be able to help them. When it costs more to do business than the business makes - smart people shut it down.

Smart people at least have a budget. The United States is basically operating without a budget and is $12+ trillion in debt; with 48 out of 50 states having budget problems.

Socialism is really great until you run out of other people's money. If you think the US is just going to breeze through this crisis - you are probably on crack. Enjoy the trip.



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by facelift
 

Well, of course he's looking out for himself. That's how people acquire money in the first place. He's happy that he has his posh 187 acre ranch, or whatever the number was, and could care less if anyone has remotely the amount of luxury that he will get to enjoy.

That's the general mentality of the financially viable. Serving self will soon go out the window though, as will the economy, the greed, and the foolishness that made this country the laughing stock that it has become.

Let him gloat. It will be a short victory.

He does have a point about the vampires that pretend to be public servants though.

Namaste and Love


[edit on 20-7-2010 by PsychoX42]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 12:37 AM
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So essentially you are saying that because you no longer earn the big money that enables you to have a 200 acre ranch with no debt, and enjoy your usual lifestyle, you are going to put 187 people out of work instead?

Are you really expecting us to believe you don't earn an income from your company because of the government? That's the same attitude the dole bludgers everywhere say when they can't be bothered working. The reason you will get atx credits now is because other continue to pay taxes you poop!

I lost everything once but I didn't blame the government, now I'm getting it ALL back and more.

Are you saying it is impossibel it's your incompetent management becuas all failures blame someone else.

Whats your excuse again??

[edit on 21-7-2010 by daggyz]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by drsmooth23
You realize that social security is a form of wealth redistribution? you knock the system, but then you say you are going to rely on it when your time comes. kind of hypocritical, if you ask me. Im sorry to hear about your employees, but the way you word the thread, you make it sound like they are all leaving the work force permanently. Most, im sure, will find other jobs and Big brother will just take his bite at their other jobs to make up the difference.


hear ye this wise & perceptive individual...

P.L.U.R.I
-B.M



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 04:08 AM
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I think you got out at the right time oh and what buisness you were in?



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 04:49 AM
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reply to post by Phedreus
 

After 30 years of owning a business and seeing the government take bigger and bigger shares of my profits to give to the moochers and parasites of this nation.

187 employees that I had on salary will now be able to join the growing population of those on unemployment... Rather than paying taxes on the income I paid them, they will now be receiving tax credits, and handout from the government coffers.
187 people who will no longer be contributing to social security.
87 families that will be getting healthcare from the federal government rather than 1paying into the socialist, rationed, healthcare that is coming down the pike.
187 families that will no longer be paying state, and local, taxes on their income.
187 families will have to cut their expenses to make ends meet, thus contributing to the downturn in business in the local area.
The government will lose an estimated 1.3 million dollars in business taxes, fees, licenses, payroll taxes, penalties, not to mention the corp. income taxes on profits from my company.

To all of the moochers and parasites out there. I leave you with a line from my favorite movie. “ I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time”

You will get no more from me!!!!!


The 187 people were not mooching off you, they were employees. You know trade labour & services for wages. You are the one who has turned decent hard working employees into the thing you alledge to depise "MOOCHERS", you know unemployeed.
I contend that you are a self-centred arogant arsehole who deserves to lose everything & end up in the gutter, just like you have probably done to some of those 187 people.
YOU ARE A FICKEN SMEG HEAD.

[edit on 21-7-2010 by acrux]



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 05:13 AM
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reply to post by PsychoX42
 


so, let's say the guy sold everything he had, gave it to charity, would it be enough to help everyone that needs help??? would it even make a dent???

I am not particularly fond of the spirit that is present in the op, I mean, just because someone is down on his luck and might be on unemployment, or food stamps or whatever, doesn't mean they are moochers, if that was a case, I would venture that the guy had quite a few moochers on his staff, since I imagine there are some now on these programs! and am wondering, when they were part of his staff, did he provide them with something close to a living wage, how about health insurance, ect?? or where there members of his staff forced to be moochers, even after they gave him 40 or more hours every week to bring that wealth to him?? if he was raking in the profits, while his employees were running to the gov't to obtain a subsidies for child care, or their child's health insurance, or for their food, or rent, well, I would say that he is a moocher himself!! since he preferred to let the taxpayer provide these things to his employees so he could have bigger profits!

but, well, it's his business, to run as he sees fit, he decided to throw in the towel, can't say that I blame him there.......
personally, if I had the cash to buy a few hundred acres, I would do it in a heartbeat, and wouldn't feel one bit of guilt about it! I would be happy to trade a failing business or one that I saw likely to fall apart in the future for that land....
then, I would be picking and choosing the people that I would like to enlist to help build the strongest little community that I could......cause, well, the world seems to be falling apart rather quickly, can't help everyone, but maybe just work at making this one little corner of the world a decent place!



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 05:36 AM
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I'm sure a number of us would be willing to help you if you were willing to divulge a little more information.


Originally posted by Phedreus
No one seems to have any factual numbers or information that would allow us to make quantifiable projections regarding the cost of new fees, taxes, rules, and penalties associated with Obama care, the new regulations on 1099 forms, new business taxes, both state and federal, as well as business associated reporting requirements, and the decline of readily available capital. Combine this with the increased cost of each employee and the downturn in sales and services, and it’s almost impossible to determine even a good estimate of what the cost of doing business will be in the coming years.


Healthcare.gov might give you some ideas of what the cost to you will be.

So far as I understand it, the new healthcare bill shouldn't be costing you anything. I'm going to go on the idea that you percieve it to cost you more in addition to the threat of losing your tax cut soon because you make more than $200,000.

If anything you and your advisors have done nothing but go on assumptions, you stated yourself no one can give you any factual numbers and as such, you've planned for the worst and...possibly, just laid off 187 people for no reason at all.

After 30 years in business I'd think you'd be able to look beyond the news story of the day and the media hype to accurately reflect and consider on your future plans.

There are and will be tax credits available to off-set the cost of healthcare for your employees, it may not be as much for you because you're considered a 'large' employer, anything over 50 is considered large. Sorry?

Being the true capitalist you are, you've done nothing but show us the reasons why socialism needs to be more prominant in our society, thank you for that.



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 06:18 AM
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Congratulations! I commend you for opting out of the slavery that obamanation is forcing on us. With things the way they are today you need to be concerned about yourself and your family and make the best possible choices. Good for you, my friend.



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