63 Years Later, Is There Anyone That Still Denies The Crash Of A UFO At Roswell ?

reply to post by Omega85

What caused the waters to be muddied?

Seriously? Have you not looked into the case at all? How about the MAJOR conflicting stories from the witnesses? How about the delayed time-line? How about a dozen or so things that don't add up. You would have to be a die hard believer or just plain daft not to recognize the myth-making going with this case.

When you choose to ignore the obvious, well.....that's how things like Roswell become legend.

The problem I always had with it was the lack of material. Even eyewitnesses who participated in the recovery describe forming a line and picking up bits of flimsy material. If it was really a crashed alien spacecraft where are the structural parts? Engines? Fuselage? Seats? Advanced alien technological devices? All they find is a balsa wood I-beam with Lucky Charms symbols and a bunch of mylar Pop Tart wrappers? Sounds more like my basement on any given Sunday morning, only without the advanced technology [iPod, computer, iPhone, Nintendo].

reply to post by CHA0S


a 2 feet wide object mistaken for an alien spaceship? i dont think so.

in your mind in 2010 a flying disc is one thing only. In 1947 it wasnt.


[edit on 19-7-2010 by yeti101]

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
reply to post by Omega85

 

What caused the waters to be muddied?

Seriously? Have you not looked into the case at all? How about the MAJOR conflicting stories from the witnesses? How about the delayed time-line? How about a dozen or so things that don't add up. You would have to be a die hard believer or just plain daft not to recognize the myth-making going with this case.

When you choose to ignore the obvious, well.....that's how things like Roswell become legend.

I know quite well though it seems you missed my point .
How about you quit playing the bigot game and start adding constructively to the thread . If you dont want to then , move on .

UFO - I agree.

Alien spacecraft - I completely disagree.


It was a craft no one in that region had ever seen the likes of before. However, it came from the state of New Mexico from a site to the west of Roswell.

NM

I think the above poster nailed my feelings on the matter. UFO? Sure, after all, they didn't know what it was. Exterrestial? Inconclusive.

What really bugs me is when UFOoligists start discussing all the alien technology we reversed engineered from that date. Every example given was proven wrong. If people stopped making up stuff, than maybe we can make some headway in investigations.

He's got a fair point there bro, the waters are pretty muddy... I mean, out of all the subjects you could pick to say definitely happened then this is a bit of a mad choice.

I've read lots on it, like most people on here. I tend to fall towards the gov. covering up some sort of enemy craft or something they didn't want the public to know about.

I did read a bit about it ALL being a hoax to scare other nations into thinking we had either A-uncovered futuristic tech. or B-had technology which had crashed but wanted to cover up ... kind of a wink towards other nations to keep clear.

For this to have been an alien craft to have crashed and only have bits and pieces scattered across a farm, it would have been made of some flimsy material, though we wouldn’t know the molecular density of an alien craft, though I would expect it to be tough enough not to be totally torn to shreds upon impact. Of course the larger pieces could have ended up elsewhere, but how often does that happen even a conventional craft crashing?

If this was instead a terrestrial object, as in something foreign government type of thing, then why is it still being covered up? Well perhaps the original even does not need to be covered up but if they were using this event as merely a slight of hand (while people are busy paying attention here, I will do something somewhere else) to hide something else from the public.

In my opinion the whole thing smells of elaborate cover-up for something that was manmade that was recovered in order for people to think it was something else, which at the time was a wasted effort because it was soon a forgotten event for many years until it came into public view again. When the subject of Roswell, came beck into public view again, the government was able to use this event again to cover up something else as misdirection, for what I do not know.

I tried to express my thoughts as clearly as I could. I know it sounds a bit confusing but perhaps that is exactly what the cover up is supposed to be.

I have no proof to my theory, just a gut feeling.

reply to post by yeti101


If you read the front page of the Roswell Record, on July 8, 1947, although "flying disc" was the term used (remember this was just weeks after Arnold's famous sighting), it was pretty apparent what the article was talking about (i.e. a flying saucer), including a sub-story about the couple seeing a flying disc in flight.

and how was it interpreted at the time? your assuming evryone thought they had found an alien spaceship. What evidence is there that is the case

The evidence for this is numerous....

1. There is no part of Mogul that resembles a "disc". The RAWIN target reflector looks more like a snowflake ornament, than anything else. The press release from the Army stated recovery of a flying disc.

2. The debris was flown to Air Materiel Command and Wright Field for examination. This would hardly be necessary for Mogul debris, as anybody, even a civilian, could easily identify foil paper (like a Hershey wrapper), balsa wood, and balloon debris. So, the flights are FACT, and we're to believe that military intelligence officers couldn't identify this material, and needed further examination of it?

3. The Mogul 4 timeline only fits if you accept Brazel's recanted testimony after being in military custody. It doesn't match his later testimony.

4. The amount of effort the military puts into the cover story, even going so far as to claim the bodies seen were really dummies from a project that didn't even start until 5 years after the event!

I'll grant that the witness testimony has several concerns for reliability, especially over the years, and includes many who seem less than honest. It'd even be nice if researchers could track down the tape Moore alleges was used in Mogul (with the flower designs, etc.), but hasn't happened yet.

However, the best evidence (for me) remains the government's own actions in how they handled this event. It isn't enough evidence to state conclusively that there was such a recovery, but it's different than "no evidence" to the contrary...

I'll also state that those not believing an alien craft crashed at Roswell are usually far from "idiots", etc. (quite the contrary, many have done a LOT of analysis on the material out there covering the topic, like yeti 101, for example... I'd wager this member knows more on this topic than many posters... ) There are plenty of pieces of evidence to cast doubt on that interpretation, including many false witnesses, conflicting testimony, and the fact that it happened so long ago, witness testimony is "iffy" at best.

However, when taken as a whole (for me), the evidence still leans towards them finding something out of this world.





[edit on 19-7-2010 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Omega85
Any UFOlogist worth his/her salt will know what happened at Roswell on July 2 1947 .

You really do not understand the times, do you?

In 1947 Kenneth Arnold had only recently made his highly-publicized report of sighting "crafts flying like saucers skipped across the water."

No one used the term "UFO" to describe flying disks, extraterrestrials, or unexplained sights in the skies. There was no presumption then that UFO's were from "outer space" or driven by alien life forms.
The term 'UFO' wasn't even used until the 50's! (YOU cannot find an earlier reference.)

People were afraid of technology that had just destroyed 2 cities and was threatening everyone else. It was an ominous, secretive and fearful time of competing nascent nuclear superpowers who were still trying to perfect JET aircraft and missiles that could cross the world to deliver such destruction undetected. There wasn't even yet an official "space program."

Even at THIS late date, many highly respected 'UFOlogist[s]' disagree on "what happened." Jacques Vallee, Donald Kehoe, Richard Dolan, and J. Allen Hynek NEVER agreed on "what happened."

There has been no "new evidence" since the initial investigations; only new recitations of old memories, de-classified files that add nothing, and new interpretations of what was seen and done in 1947 and shortly thereafter.

OmegaBS obviously doesn't know, either, or it would say so.

What i am wondering is after all this time , all the witnesses, all the evidence and all of the material supporting the case for a downed UFO all those years ago , Is there anyone who still denies what happened ?

Yes, only the most self-convinced "believer" would presume that there is any general agreement. Anyone who read on the subject would acknowledge that dis-agreement, instead of deny it, when it is readily apparent to everyone else with an open mind.

Are you saying there is a "scientific consensus?" That doesn't even work with MODERN investigations, as the "Global Warming" debate has proven.

If so what is the reason for this ?

The difference between scientific analysis, and poorly-educated, misinformed, hyperbole-prone evangelistic refusals to accept ANY other explanation than that a craft capable of inter-galactic transportation of a living crew was somehow catastrophically disabled by Earth weather, that it traveled alone, and that the occupants were evolved into anthropormorphic semblances of terrestrial life, and that no outside evidence has been gathered, preserved, or released by these "witnesses."

Or, fact v. myth.

Also if you have another theory as to what happened on that fateful day at Mac Brazils ranch i would love to hear it .

Yes: a poor, uneducated ranch hand found unusual debris scattered across his boss' ranch, downwind from where atomic bombs were being fine-tuned, and from where research balloons carrying strings of mylar targets were launched.

He didn't recognize any of it, but had heard the radio reports of Arnold's unexplained aircraft "flying like saucers skipped across the water."

He went to see his friend, the Sheriff, and they notified the local Army airfield when they couldn't figure it out.

I have no idea why the Army responded as it did, but would consider the fact that they, too, were concerned with foreign surveillance and/or attack, public perceptions, and, most of all, the "need" for SECRECY and DECEPTION!

So, what is YOUR theory of "what happened," and why should every credible UFOlogist agree with you?

What, exactly, is "all the evidence;" who are "all the witnesses;" and where is "all the material" supporting your case for a "downed UFO."

(Note that "UFO" means un-identified; I presume you mean "alien spacecraft.")

Deny ignorance!

jw

p.s.: I believe there is extraterrestrial intelligence, that it has been HERE, and that there is a cover-up of "official knowledge."

Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer at the most elite bomber group in the entire US at the time, who already had extensive radar training, couldn't distinguish the remains of a balloon carrying radar targets? gimme a break...

I've read pretty much everything on Roswell (pro and con flying disk) and finally went to Roswell a couple weeks ago. After talking to Friedman and then reading "The Roswell Legacy" by Jesse Marcel Jr.(extremely good book, quite touching actually) I'm convinced it was no weather balloon, or Mogul balloon...

Definitely something outside of our understanding at the time...

reply to post by Toxicsurf


There was no way for Mr. Marcel to know for sure what they had found was or was not terrestrial in origin. Though I do believe that the weather balloon cover story was a bit of hooey, and that something for certain was being covered up, I do not believe it was extraterrestrial in origin. What it was, I am not certain, but there was a cover up being performed.

The main reason I don’t believe it was alien is because I don’t see any evidence in our current technologies of alien influence. All current advancements can be tracked back to human ingenuity. If we had recovered something truly alien current advancements in technology would not be able to be traced back to human origin, because to have this alien technology all of this time and to not make use of it, is a bit odd in itself.

Some may argue that we are still trying to figure the technology out, but after almost 60 years, I would think we would know something about the tech by now as well as making use of the tech we do have an understanding of.

Originally posted by AlienCarnage
If we had recovered something truly alien current advancements in technology would not be able to be traced back to human origin, because to have this alien technology all of this time and to not make use of it, is a bit odd in itself.

well, possibly. But imagine given an IPhone to Galileo or someone equivalent 200 years ago. How much of that would they figure out? Not only wouldn't they figure out the power source needed, but just the plastic case alone would be far outside anything comparable to them...

That being said, I think we may have gained knowledge from extra-terrestrial sources. Well, its possible anyways. But, true we have no FACTS...

reply to post by Gazrok


hi gazrok , i know roswell is one of your favourites and i could counter those points you made but i think we'd end up going in circles.

there is one point you might be able to clear up for me. Marcel in his interview with stanton friedman , 1978 i think, he never mentions a second crash site or alien bodies. I know the pro roswell folk must explain that away somehow i just never heard the reason. Do you know what the reason is for him not mentioning those 2 quite important things?

[edit on 19-7-2010 by yeti101]

Originally posted by yeti101
Marcel in his interview with stanton friedman , 1978 i think, he never mentions a second crash site or alien bodies. I know the pro roswell folk must explain that away somehow i just never heard the reason. Do you know what the reason is for him not mentioning those 2 quite important things?

Um,... integrity?

Harte

Originally posted by Gazrok
1. There is no part of Mogul that resembles a "disc". The RAWIN target reflector looks more like a snowflake ornament, than anything else. The press release from the Army stated recovery of a flying disc.

Check out the FBI memo to see their description of the disc, which has 6 sides just like the snowflake you mentioned:

From "The Roswell Report", page 22, the FBI memo is mentioned that describes the "disc" is hexagonal in shape and was suspended from a balloon:

the telegram from the Dallas FBI office of July 8,1947. This document quoted in part states: “. . The disc is hexagonal in shape and was suspended from a balloon by a cable, which balloon was approximately twenty feet in diameter... the object found resembles a high altitude weather balloon with a radar reflector... disc and balloon being transported...”

So it's interesting to see the way they say it resembles a balloon with a radar reflector, yet still calling it a disc "suspended from a balloon".

Snowflake=hexagonal
Disc=hexagonal

With all the previous sightings I think people probably had "disc" on the brain and probably overused the term. Normally I wouldn't think of calling a hexagonal object attached to a balloon a "disc" but that's exactly what the FBI memo does.

I've already debated the other points with you and I think they seem mysterious to you, but they really don't seem mysterious to me.

But I haven't mentioned that FBI memo before so I thought you'd find that interesting if you haven't seen that before.

Originally posted by Toxicsurf
Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer at the most elite bomber group in the entire US at the time, who already had extensive radar training, couldn't distinguish the remains of a balloon carrying radar targets?

He said there was too much debris to be a weather balloon, and he was right. It wasn't a weather balloon. What was it? Let's check the 1947 report for the description:

www.ufologie.net...

The next day he first heard about the flying disks, and he wondered if what he had found might be the remnants of one of these.

When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 5 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds

Considerable scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction.

That's way too much debris for a weather balloon. So Marcel was right when he said it wasn't a weather balloon. But it doesn't sound other-worldly, since "Considerable scotch tape ... had been used in the construction".

It was either a Russian spy device, one of the balloons of project Mogul, or one of the flying saucers being created with top scientists in Nazi Germany (some of them were taken to America if I'm right) but flying saucers have been spotted before that.. Then it could be an alien ship, you know the stories about the corpses inside, and the technology gained from it. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW. It's always the same with the best UFO issues. Bill Clinton did state "An alien space craft did NOT crash in Roswell New Mexico 1947." Of course, he could be lying, you just don't know. Maybe it didn't crash, it landed and exploded?

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Jonas86]

One theory I read assumes the object that crashed was a test to see if nuclear powered flight would be a feasible option.

The test may or may not have included human or animal test subjects with an amount of radioactive material on board to prove out shielding types, thicknesses & see what works best for protecting the pilots.

As for the cover up?

The war was not long over & Project paperclip was something I doubt the powers that be would like to advertise, assuming some of the scientists were involved with whatever crashed they'd want it covered up. Assuming live test subjects were used then Ex Nazi scientists probably were involved due to their past experience.

Then there was the alleged link to Unit 731 & the very remote possibility that there were human test subjects, past inmates of 731, used in these dangerous experiments.

Add the fact that TPTB can't be seen to be testing on humans & flying radioactive material all over the place, what if it CRASHED & American people got hurt, & the secrecy & cover stories seem to add up.

Perhaps the muddying of the waters was done to hide links to Unit 731, Nazi scientists or human test subjects at the time.




Perhaps the object that crashed was of much less importance than what people think?

Don't know if many of you know this but there were supposedly 2 crashes that evening.

I still have a very hard time wondering how such advanced Beings manage to crash their crafts when they do. I'm not alone in this thought so it's been suggested that maybe their technology (with their anti-gravity propulsion system etc) somehow gets cancelled out or effect when it comes on contact with our radar.

Who knows. Something happened that evening and it wasn't what the 'official report' claimed (after they changed-up their story of course)