Dream on ATS.

reply to post by v01i0

But I am growing tired of constant accusations of my subjectiveness. How come people feel urge to repeat the obvious? In subjective sphere of experiences, there is nothing but subjective observation and interpretation of those experiences. The objects on my desk are objective, but interpretation of the meaning of those objects is subjective.

This forum is geared toward the existence of these things, and serves as a place to discuss these things.

It is not a place that operates from the notion that these things don't exist, because what would be the point of that?

When you start dismissing these subjects as dreams and phantasies, you throw all objectivity out the window.

You could even call it trolling, but I won't, because you seem like a nice guy.

reply to post by Point of No Return


Hay,

This will be my last reply for some time as I gonna be away for few days. I gonna go haunt some places

Originally posted by Point of No Return
This forum is geared toward the existence of these things, and serves as a place to discuss these things.

Indeed. The discussion varies from real experiences to hallucinations and desperately hopeful cases of seeing of ghost in most natural phenomas.

Originally posted by Point of No Return
It is not a place that operates from the notion that these things don't exist, because what would be the point of that?

When you start dismissing these subjects as dreams and phantasies, you throw all objectivity out the window.

Funny you say that. I have stated it few times already that I don't dismiss the option that my opinion could be wrong. As life goes on, maybe I am able to personally experience haunting, demon posession or alien abduction - I look eagerly forward for them

So far however, I see that my opinions on these experiences brings up the counteropinion to the (ATS) mainstream opinion which regards these things as real physical phenomas.

I don't see any objectivety in my or others opinions. The only objective thing may be the experiences themselves, but not their explanations and explanative causes. Even the science is subjective as it is produced by subjects aiming in objectivity as they are trying to use objects of reality to describe the very reality. But it becomes a subjective experience as soon as there is an observer observing all this.

-v

[edit on 21-7-2010 by v01i0]

This forum is geared toward the existence of these things, and serves as a place to discuss these things.

AboveTopSecret.com is the Internet's largest and most popular discussion board community dedicated to the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of "alternative topics"...

Kind of tough to have a debate with only one side represented.

There are believer boards elsewhere. They are "geared to the existence of these things." Skeptic boards, too. They are geared differently

This is an open board. All views are permitted here. This board's not geared.

Good deal for those who aren't cogs.

Other views are possible. Thank God.

reply to post by eight bits

This is an open board. All views are permitted here. This board's not geared.

It's not? So it has subforums called "Aliens and UFO's" or "General
Conspiracies", but the site doesn't believe there are aliens or UFO's, or that conspiracies exist?

Hell jeah it's geared.

It's just that we debate about the validity of individual cases.

If the site wasn't geared towards the existance of conspiracies for instance, what would be the point of having a forum about it?

This site doesn't debate if conspiracies are real, it debates wether individual conspiracy theories are real.

When the OP dismisses entire subjects as not real, and phantasy and dreams, by blanket statements, then it's hard to have an open debate about individual cases.

Can you agree with that?

It's not? So it has subforums called "Aliens and UFO's" or "General
Conspiracies", but the site doesn't believe there are aliens or UFO's, or that conspiracies exist?

Those are the subjects of discussion. I think everybody believes that there are things in the sky that haven't been definitely identified. The discussion point in that subject is what UFO's are.

Similarly, I think everybody believes that conspiracies have happened and are happening. The discussion points there include such questions as whether this or that constellation of observed facts is of conspiratorial origin, and if so, who are the conspirators, and what is their goal?

It is obvious what subjects interest site management. Their views, however, are less clear. What is clear is that they welcome holders of all points of view to join and post here.

If the site wasn't geared towards the existance of conspiracies for instance, what would be the point of having a forum about it?

I don't know. Maybe you could ask somebody from JREF what the point of their forum is.

This site doesn't debate if conspiracies are real, it debates wether individual conspiracy theories are real.

When the OP dismisses entire subjects as not real, and phantasy and dreams, by blanket statements, then it's hard to have an open debate about individual cases.

Can you agree with that?

I don't agree that OP dismissed subjects as not real. It seemed to me he was talking about individual cases having fantasy, dream, other psychological aspects, and perhaps other "non-alternative" attributes as well. What I got from his presentation was that he was reading more such cases here than he would like, and that those aspects of the cases weren't being pursued in as much depth as he thought to be warranted.

I'm not the OP. I don't pretend to speak for him. I can only answer about my understanding of what I read.

reply to post by eight bits

If ATS indeed would be reflection of society in micro scale, it would seem like we are living 800 AD or something. Ghosts, angels, demons or whatever still runs amok here. Luckily ATS might only reflect a part of society: of that which totally beliefs in fantasies. I know that there are some sane persons out here – I've befriended many of them.

Read that and tell me again he is talking about individual cases, and not about the subject of ghosts etc. in general.

I don't know. Maybe you could ask somebody from JREF what the point of their forum is

They are at least not saying that conspiracies don't exist or that ghosts don't exist.

It is obvious what subjects interest site management. Their views, however, are less clear. What is clear is that they welcome holders of all points of view to join and post here.

So they welcome people that for instance, say that all conspiracies are phantasy and dreams?

Because that is like what the OP is doing.

Read that and tell me again he is talking about individual cases, and not about the subject of ghosts etc. in general.

Happy to, but the next sentence reads

For long time there has been credible information available that most extraordinary experiences (I am meaning likes of ghost, alien and demon encounters) are personal psychological experiences, fantasies and dreams.

I see the word most. That leaves room for some cases to be something else. And I also see discussion of a relevant way in which 2010 differs from 800, namely, the advance of psychology.

I have no problem at all with the statement that much that was attributed to "ghosts, angels, demons or whatever" running "amok" in the Ninth Century was, as a matter of fact, "personal psychological experiences, fantasies and dreams."

In the Twenty-first Century, knowing what mistakes were made long ago, we might hope to filter such reports a little better than was possible in the Ninth. It's hard to say how much would get through the filter, especially if the filter isn't being applied. Perhaps we should try it out.

And by that I mean try it out by personal choice and in community discussion, not prior restraint.

They are at least not saying that conspiracies don't exist or that ghosts don't exist.

On JREF? Maybe it's changed since my last visit. What I found there was a hostile environment for advocates of just about anything "alternative." Which also explains why I don't go there often.

So they welcome people that for instance, say that all conspiracies are phantasy and dreams?

All I can go by is what the application said when I signed up, and that's almost a year ago. I wasn't asked.

Because that is like what the OP is doing.

Well, there you have it. Two people read what he wrote, and have two different ideas about what he said. I just don't read it the way you do.

reply to post by eight bits

I see the word most. That leaves room for some cases to be something else. And I also see discussion of a relevant way in which 2010 differs from 800, namely, the advance of psychology. I have no problem at all with the statement that much that was attributed to "ghosts, angels, demons or whatever" running "amok" in the Ninth Century was, as a matter of fact, "personal psychological experiences, fantasies and dreams."

You are definately reading different things, in this case I can make it completely clear that your reading is off, without a doubt.

He was saying that the way people think about ghosts and such, on ATS right now, is the same as the way they thought in the 900's.

If ATS indeed would be reflection of society in micro scale, it would seem like we are living 800 AD or something. Ghosts, angels, demons or whatever still runs amok here. Luckily ATS might only reflect a part of society: of that which totally beliefs in fantasies. I know that there are some sane persons out here – I've befriended many of them.

He then implies that apparently a large part of the people here is insane.

Well, there you have it. Two people read what he wrote, and have two different ideas about what he said. I just don't read it the way you do. signature

Let's leave it at that.



[edit on 22-7-2010 by Point of No Return]