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Dream on ATS.

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posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 11:53 AM
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I'd argue that ghosts, demons, et's and what not are at least entertaining.

I'd also argue that we each contribute to consensus reality every day, through the things we do and say. I won't contribute to disaster porn, because it's not the world I want to love in. That doesn't mean I don't prepare for the worst, but I do hope for the best. Other people may disagree, and I think that's fine.

Today I watched the Heartland episode of Anthony Bourdain. Do you know why? The guy that serves Reindeer Sausage from a funky cart on main street is a lot more interesting then the guy who won't shut up about how the sky is falling.

To me at least.

I just prefer people who do real things for real people, with passion.

And I like my conspiracies with a dash of "fun". There is nothing wrong with that either.

[edit on 19-7-2010 by 0zzymand0s]




posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by v01i0
 





It's all right. I think I have nothing more to say at the moment as it seems it only provokes more furious responses.




Maybe I'm not getting the point, please explain exactly what you mean if you will.


I clearly gave you the opportunity to explain what I wasn't getting, you know the whole point this thread revolves around.





I've tried to make my stand clear, hopefully succeeding - if not, I cannot help it further.


Yes you can. Just answer my question, if you will.

In what way are these experiences real, if they are also phantasy and dreams?



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 01:57 PM
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reply to post by Point of No Return
 


Fair enough. I try to express it more clearly. In the OP I mentioned that (regarding the reality of psychic experiences):


Originally posted by v01i0
It doesn't mean that they aren't real, for psychic events are real as they happen.


And:


Originally posted by v01i0
It gives an interesting view into the psychology of people. It tells the story of our individual and collective (un-)consciousness [...]


So in short the psychic is in relation to physical, as our mental activities interact both ways with reality. It all boils down to the concept of psychological reality. Our psychological reality is affected by the physical reality, and this on the contrary is affected by psychological realities of human beings. Take ideology as an example. Even the essence of an ideology might not be real per se, it's implications can cause real effects in physical reality. Let's take religion as an another example. The object of belief in religion may not be real, but religions are real with their real world implications.

So in this sense dreams and fantasies are real as it is quite an undeniable fact that people experiences them.

-v



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by v01i0
 





So in this sense dreams and fantasies are real as it is quite an undeniable fact that people experiences them.


So I did understand after all.

How is that different from saying that ghost's and aliens are figments of the imagination?

And that they are real at the same time, because it is an undeniable fact that we have an imagination.

That's some strange logic.

Why don't you just say that it's all phantasy and dreams without adding the "but they're real in this non out of my box kindoff way".

I don't get it.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by Point of No Return

And that they are real at the same time, because it is an undeniable fact that we have an imagination.


...and imagination have caused both wonderful and terrible effects in real world, that's granted.

I'm sorry if I have failed in fashioning my thoughts in intelligble manner. It is all quite clear to myself tho, maybe some day I can put it forth in such manner that others can understand it also. Or maybe it doesn't need understanding. I cannot really say that everything is dream or fantasy, as there are obviously some objective grounds we all agree. Most likely all of us will collide with the wall should we try to pass through it. My foremost aim is to chart the objective reality and descripe it as accurately I can.

Then again, it is well known that whatever measures taken to agree on common grounds, there will always be people who cannot agree on terms. But I don't regard it necessarily as a bad thing, but as a positive sign of diversity.


Originally posted by Point of No Return
How is that different from saying that ghost's and aliens are figments of the imagination?


Because psychological realities and their entities are not just imagination but reality. There are certain patterns, dream symbols like the archetypes which are not wilfully controlled just like that. I can imagine stuff at will, but some things in psychology have autonomy from the power of will.

-v

[edit on 19-7-2010 by v01i0]



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 02:45 PM
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"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophies, Horatio." - Shakespeare.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by v01i0
 


So are you saying that you do acknowledge these experiences as real experiences, but that they don't involve actual real extra-terrestials, or actual real spirits or ghosts, and that they find their origins in the human psyche?



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by Point of No Return
 


In most cases yes (when they are authentic experiences). That's the way it seems to be according to my own experiences, observations and examination, which I base my current opinion on. But in the end, one cannot be 100% certain. After all, who is to say that there couldn't be physically real abduction (or "real" ghosts) however unlikely.

-v



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by v01i0
 


But why do you think that?

How would you explain for instance, hauntings that are experienced by entire families, where all the individual members are affected?

How can that be, if it's all subjective and psychological?



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by Point of No Return
reply to post by v01i0
 


But why do you think that?

How would you explain for instance, hauntings that are experienced by entire families, where all the individual members are affected?

How can that be, if it's all subjective and psychological?

They're all hallucinating the same exact thing at the same exact time of course.
You see, that's the thing with people who view the paranormal as "the mind playing tricks on you", they don't even research these things themselves, and apply blanket explanations as if they explain what everyone experiences. Dream on indeed.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by Point of No Return
 


I remember when I was child and we had this game with my friends where we were hunting a criminal (or something alike). We all were able to see it going here and there whenever and elsewhere, yet there was nothing, it was purely imaginary fiend we were after.

The shared haunting can result from shared unconsciousness, or the haunting can be explained by other means than ghosts, like natural phenomenas. There is the thing called collective unconsciousness that is common to all mankind, regardless of race, nationality and other external factors.

Furthermore, I have always had this "flaw" in my character which renders me incapable of trusting in "evidence" brought to me by second hand sources. Yes, people has told me incredible stories, net is abundant of most extraordinary experiences and so are libraries. But whenever I've tried to reproduce these experiences in hopes of finally experiencing something extraordinary, I've had to disappoint. I've tried summoning demons, nothing. I've been in places which people claim to be haunted, nothing. I've peered unholy (not blessed) graveyard in hopes of getting a glimpse of an unrest spirit, nothing. All my experiences has led to my skeptism regarding the "physicality" of these phenomenas. In one of the previous posts I've mentioned about seeing ghosts and hearing voices - yes I've experienced them. I saw "spirits" when I was a child and having high fever (hallucinations caused by fever, most likely). I heard voice renouncing the birth date of an unborn child of my relative during a deep state of relaxation ("meditation"), but thats another story which is too long to be repeated here. If you are interested, it has been already explained here. Sufficient to say, that these experiences and their careful reflection has led to my current opinion about them.

But again, as stated before, I can be mistaken in grand scale


-v

[edit on 19-7-2010 by v01i0]



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by cLOUDDEAD
 


You are dead wrong. I have indeed researched these things through personal manner. Please read everything before coming out with such ignorant comments. If reading and believing 2nd hand stories through internet and other sources is research, then you are correct - I've not sunk on that yet.

-v

[edit on 19-7-2010 by v01i0]



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by v01i0
 





But whenever I've tried to reproduce these experiences in hopes of finally experiencing something extraordinary, I've had to disappoint. I've been in places which people claim haunter, nothing. I've tried summoning demons, nothing. I've peered unholy (not blessed) graveyard in hopes of getting a glimpse of an unrest spirit, nothing. All my experiences has led to my skeptism regarding the "physicality" of these phenomenas.


So, because you didn't experience paranormal activity, even though you tried, going to haunted places and all, you have come to the conclusion that none of it exists, and other people's experiences are not real either.

Jeah that about sums up your subjectivity, and the way you use blanket statements for things you have absolutely no knowledge off, as the previous poster pointed out.

Your thread is based on phantasy at least as much as the ones you find annoying when you come to check the news in the morning.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Point of No Return

Jeah that about sums up your subjectivity, and the way you use blanket statements for things you have absolutely no knowledge off, as the previous poster pointed out.


If that is your opinion, it's allright. At least I've tried to personally examine these phenomenas instead just believing in stories. Due personal examination, I can be content in that what I know is true - in my subjective reality, that is



Originally posted by Point of No Return
Your thread is based on phantasy at least as much as the ones you find annoying when you come to check the news in the morning.


Might be, but I highly doubt it


-v



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 05:35 PM
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reply to post by v01i0
 





At least I've tried to personally examine these phenomenas instead just believing in stories. Due personal examination, I can be content in that what I know is true - in my subjective reality, that is


Going to haunted places, calling up spirits and walking past a graveyard have absolutely nothing to do with examining the plethora of abduction and ghost/haunting cases.

Absolutely nothing.




posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 02:19 AM
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reply to post by Point of No Return
 



Originally posted by Point of No Return

Going to haunted places, calling up spirits and walking past a graveyard have absolutely nothing to do with examining the plethora of abduction and ghost/haunting cases.

Absolutely nothing.



No, not abdcution. I forgot to tell you, that I haven't been abducted so far


But insofar as it comes researching these things, I've also read accounts of haunting and abduction, as well as some spirtual phenomas. I've also read literature of them, both critical and supportive. Would I be more wealthi, I could invest on certain equipments, but as my chosen way of life doesn't include riches, that option is outruled. I still got two eyes, ears and other sensory organs to work with, it has to be enough.

If you are questioning this methodology, then what would you suggest that appropriate method of researching these things in empirical way would be? Enlighten me on this issue, so I can correct my ways.

-v



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by v01i0
 


So if you don't experience these things personally, then you are attributing them to Jungian pyschology or fantasies and dreams

That's all well and good for you, but there's something inherently supernatural in the fact that we exsist at all, that simple yet profound fact eludes alot of people in their quest for a subjective understanding of the supernatural or paranormal.
You aren't going to find your answers here unfortunately, but it's pretty flimsy and speculative at best for you to attribute someone else's experience to anything, then you try to pass that off as some kind of diagnosis. Skepticism is normal and healthy, but egocentrism is a mental disorder all it's own, and you're crossing the fine line between them with generalizations and well, dogma.


Most of those mornings I become disillusioned by the sheer amount of infantilism and pure fantasy of the topics.

People report about demons, ghosts, UFOs, aliens, abductions, mythical creatures and so on. Most of the reports are so poor of quality that even affects the quality of the board (and the community) itself. Why are people so inclined in story telling, even not outright lying? Because of that, I've often thought I'd delete my ATS account and forget the board altogether. I have not done it so far, because I've thought that maybe I must resist these "heresies" which are so abundant here.

If ATS indeed would be reflection of society in micro scale, it would seem like we are living 800 AD or something. Ghosts, angels, demons or whatever still runs amok here. Luckily ATS might only reflect a part of society: of that which totally beliefs in fantasies. I know that there are some sane persons out here – I've befriended many of them.

For long time there has been credible information available that most extraordinary experiences (I am meaning likes of ghost, alien and demon encounters) are personal psychological experiences, fantasies and dreams.

To quote a popular film...
"That's pretty arrogant considering the company your in."



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 03:29 AM
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reply to post by twitchy
 


I've experienced some of mentioned phenomenas personally. Jungian psychology (amongst some other theories) has so far been decent theory in explaining them.

I seem to get feedback suggesting slight arrogance in my approach. Maybe that is the case, but personally I am also open to other options and explanative theories. It is just that my personal experiences, observations and research seems to be backing up my view, better than traditional "spiritual" theories as well as religious explanations.


Originally posted by twitchy
reply to post by v01i0
 

[...] but there's something inherently supernatural in the fact that we exsist at all [...]


There is nothing supernatural. There is just lack of knowledge and understanding. Supernatural is another conception that raises my hair up. How can anything be supernatural, hence implying into something that is above nature, not bound to it's laws (to universal laws). IMO, the concept of supernatural implies into human hybris, which suggest that we are familiar with laws of nature in intellectual sense. But in fact we do not know these laws, we only know some of their implications.

I have nothing against the conception ghosts being ghosts, aliens being aliens in concrete manner, it is just that the experiences seems to contradict these conceptions. But I firmly maintain that life will teach me further


-v

[edit on 20-7-2010 by v01i0]



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by v01i0
I am also open to other options and explanative theories.


Ah well then perhaps you should edit your OP to reflect that because that certainly isn't the impression I got from it.
It's possible, even IMO likely, that you've approached ATS with a narrow focus and your reading list here has been limited to these fringe topics in order to support your own stereotyping. But there's other explinations for these experiences, trythis thread for example.



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 04:00 AM
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reply to post by twitchy
 


You know, I've always held it as possibility that divine experiences could be hallucinations caused by certain substances and/or certain hormones and chemicals brains produce. But that doesn't exlude their psychological nature neither.

It seems that I've suffered somekind of brain damage because I (as well as many other people who) cannot experience these things so easily


But I am growing tired of constant accusations of my subjectiveness. How come people feel urge to repeat the obvious? In subjective sphere of experiences, there is nothing but subjective observation and interpretation of those experiences. The objects on my desk are objective, but interpretation of the meaning of those objects is subjective.



Originally posted by twitchy

Ah well then perhaps you should edit your OP to reflect that because that certainly isn't the impression I got from it.


Oops, sorry. Too late. The OP is already locked.

-v

[edit on 20-7-2010 by v01i0]



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