Dream on ATS.

Most mornings I check the ATS for any controversial news and ideas, as I've noticed that it is often fastest report such events (thanks to it's users). Most of those mornings I become disillusioned by the sheer amount of infantilism and pure fantasy of the topics.

People report about demons, ghosts, UFOs, aliens, abductions, mythical creatures and so on. Most of the reports are so poor of quality that even affects the quality of the board (and the community) itself. Why are people so inclined in story telling, even not outright lying? Because of that, I've often thought I'd delete my ATS account and forget the board altogether. I have not done it so far, because I've thought that maybe I must resist these "heresies" which are so abundant here.

If ATS indeed would be reflection of society in micro scale, it would seem like we are living 800 AD or something. Ghosts, angels, demons or whatever still runs amok here. Luckily ATS might only reflect a part of society: of that which totally beliefs in fantasies. I know that there are some sane persons out here – I've befriended many of them.

For long time there has been credible information available that most extraordinary experiences (I am meaning likes of ghost, alien and demon encounters) are personal psychological experiences, fantasies and dreams. It doesn't mean that they aren't real, for psychic events are real as they happen. But people here are forcefully projecting these subjective realities into objective reality which they don't fit.

I recognize that most people expressing these extraordinary experiences are doing so because of fun they deliver. They are not really taking these things as granted, but rather toying with the thought that they might be. What these people perhaps don't realize, is the damage they do to the image of the board and it's dwellers – or maybe they do, they just don't care.

Though there are lighter sides for all this fantasizing. It gives an interesting view into the psychology of people. It tells the story of our individual and collective (un-)consciousness for those who can interpret it. The more you read into it, the more clear becomes the impression that mankind is indeed approaching another turning point in its conscious attitude. But these changes never happen slowly and in peaceful manner. History has shown that whenever our "collective attitude" experience radical changes, it happens in quick and forceful manner. Sometimes it happens as an all out war, sometimes as revolution and another times as egalitarian movements of sorts.

Here on ATS 2012 has been labeled as a turning point of sorts. There has been quite many predictions what will happen. Some are saying that nothing will happen on that specific date. I agree that it might not happen on that date, but it's not far off. We are approaching another event that will be recorded in history whether it continues. When will eruption take place, it's hard to say. But commonly people on ATS have agreed that it will be end of 2012.

So dream on ATS, tell everyone about the fantasies you are dreaming.

Respectfully yours,

-v

reply to post by v01i0


I used to label people "crazy" pretty quickly...but you know what I've slowly come to realize...the ones that appear the most crazy...are usually the only people who see things for what they really are.

"I'd rather be mad with the truth than sane with lies." - anonymous mental patient

I wont be replying any further.

[edit on 19/7/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by v01i0


Look its yuppy man with his phd talking down to everyone in patronising fashion again.

This is the web, and all sorts of people with all sorts of education coming on here. Not everyone has the vocabulary to explain what they saw and feel. Get over yourself.

Man this is a web board and people come on here thinking people are posting 100% facts about there experiences and so it can be understood by the average joe.

The average joe understands this, but not the highly educated phd's who come here thinking they have analytical thought, lol.

I'm sorry, what exactly is the point of the OP?

Do you want the whole of ATS to become something you personally approve of?

I'm confused.

andy1033 - You must have posted just as I was too. I have to agree with your post. Sums it up rather well.

Cheers
Shane

[edit on 19/7/10 by shamus78]

Thanks for encouraging replies

I realize that my viewpoint is as subjective as the next guy's, it couldn't be otherwise. It is also true that most people posting controversial or even fantastic (in the original meaning of the word) topics believe their experiences to be 100% true - and they are. They just don't fit the objective observation of existence.

And experiences, no matter how extraordinary, usually are real (to the subject), but the explanation of those experiences often reaches peaks of insanity. There is often factual data available to explain those experiences in rational way. What is rational? Generally accepted opinions based in science? Hardly, but it seems that those qualify closest in terms of rationality.

I found above replies encouraging, thanks

-v

reply to post by andy1033


You're obviously reading too deeply into the post in which the OP stated his observations. Instead of actually reading the post, agreeing or disagreeing with his views on a personal, emotional, mental or spiritual level, you instead attack him with the notion that you believe he is talking down to you?

Yes this is a public board, yes there are quite a few topics here that the average joe want to read about, however what sets ATS apart from the rest of the crowd is that we "Deny Ignorance", simply put, we do not simply sit by and let this forum turn into the thousands of copies fo random "insert subject" boards that currently clog up the web's already taxed mental capacity. Initially the web was not created as a social tool, it instead was created so that scientists could share data back and forth between labs freely and without reprisal from legislative agencies. In the time since it's creation, the web has dilluted to a self absorbed, greedy, almost maniacle version of what it really should be.

ATS seeks (In my opinion) to discuss subject matters that in most boards run rampant with:

1. Trolls
2. Flame artists
3. Hate Speech
4. Personal attacks
5. General douchebaggery

I joined this site with the specific purpose to educate myself and choose for MYSELF whether the topics posted were adequately discussed, debated, analyzed and leave the decisions up to me whether to believe in them. I do not post very often here because I choose to let my posts have substance rather than sheer numbers, however I do have to step up occasionally and defend what I feel is a wrong on the part of some of our "younger members."

So in this case I say to you, how do you think that the OP was being so condesending? Is it because you lack the confidence to agree or disagree with him on an intellectual level or is it simply because you didn't thoroughly read his initial post and think about it for a few minutes before you posted your attacks?

I interpret the OP as stating his observations on the rampant amount of frivilous topics posted in triplicate with only alternate titles by multiple authors, yet lacking in any real conspiracy, thought or attention at all to the news story to which they are referring. I am saddened that ATS has become quite the "washed out" version of what it was when I joined, but as with any social uprising, awakening or even curiosity, our human tendency is to either accept or hate what we do not understand.

So because I speak in a very logical, methodical manner, does that make me a PhD know-it-all as well? I actually hope so. Maybe in this case it will give you pause for thought at the fact you could learn to spend more time paying attention to more subtle details instead of just the big hit titles.

In the end, ATS is about the safest place you are going to find to discuss alternative topics without someone trying to set you up for a psych evaluation. I would hope you read his post again and think about it more clearly before you go on the assault, that way next time you might end up adding to the conversation instead of driving people away from it.

This is how threads die.

Just my opinion,

King

Originally posted by shamus78
I'm sorry, what exactly is the point of the OP?

The point is what you make it. You read it and you experience it. If it doesn't ring any bells in you, that's fine. I am not the one to explain for you how you should orientate yourself towards above post.

If it seems pointless to you, then it is pointless. What else can I say?

-v

[edit on 19-7-2010 by v01i0]

This is the way I see it....

This site is a Family Oriented site, meaning that anyone of any age can come onto these boards and start their own 'thread'. So there are a lot of younger people out there who are still holding onto some of those childhood fantasies, and thats ok! Sometimes what might seem like a stupid, or worthless thread to some, mayinspire others to see things in a different way, no matter how ridiculous it may sound. And it is not just limited to children, it also goes to the older schooled generations who are still holding onto outdated views of the world. That is ok too, because sometimes the younger ones miss a lot of important details or information
that only comes with age. Again, what may seem stupid to you, may not be to them.

That said, there are certainly those in between that just create threads such as those of which you speak, just to garner attention, or to troll other members, because they have nothing else to do in their boring day to day life. Those are the ones that ATS should be concerned about, but even then, you shouldnt be too concerned, because the members of this site KNOW who those people are.

Then there are those people who really just dont know how to research that well, or are really not that good at it. Some people feel they dont need to go searching through pages and pages and pages of internet
sites just to prove to someone else that what they are saying has validity to it.

This site is really a diverse crowd, and you will get annoyed with the quality of some things, but you always have the option of just ignoring those ones, because when you feed into it, all you are doing is making them that much stronger. "Dont feed the Trolls" type of deal.

I think that when it comes to dreams, and peoples postings of their dreams, that people seem to be really convinced of what they 'see' in their mental projections, that they feel the need to share it with the world(no matter how whacky it may sound). Dreams are a powerful thing, and sometimes can be more real than the world we live in. I for one, like reading about peoples dreams for the fact that it makes me feel like I get to know that person a little bit better knowing that they are just as normal as the rest of us, and not undercover robots secretly out to destroy me.
Dreams are a PERSONAL thing, and for people to be able to come to this site and express to total strangers some of their most intimate thoughts is very admirable in my eyes.

Some threads can be ridiculous, and I have also thought about leaving this site several times do to some of the same reasons as you, I always bring myself back because I think there are a lot of people on this site who deserve more credit then we give them, instead we give all the credit to the Aholes of the site, thus making them in a better position to screw the rest of us over(if that makes sense). I am not going to screw myself over from learning because a couple of morons decided to post a stupid thread.

I think thats it.

reply to post by Kingalbrect79


reply to post by Common Good


Thanks you two for interesting feedback. They were nice read.

@ Common Good: You made good point about the diversity of members and also the implications of that. Sometimes I tend to forget that there may be young and inexperienced people about.

@ Kingalbrect79: Thanks for stepping up. You are quite correct about the origins of the Internet. It was also designed for defensive needs of US, to ensure data flow even in case of some nodes going down. Keyword: ARPANET.

-v

Maybe that's why this forum is divided into different boards with different topics? Something of interest for all....Some ATs members never set foot in the paranormal board, some never visit the above politics board.

This is exactly what I find to be the 'beauty' of ATS. No matter what someone posts on here,
if it's a hoax it will be proven to be a hoax,
if it can be debunked, it will be debunked,
if it's unexplainable, it remains a mistery.
if someone is a liar, he will be recognized as such

if someone has an experience he doesn't understand, others will provide information for that person (and some will call him crazy... so what?)

Some come here ONLY to debunk
Some come here only to try provide proof
some come here to inform...
and some... come here only to play the 'know-it-all' and patronize others... or to yell 'disinfo agent' on every board.

and all of the above leaves room for enough discusion to fill pages.
That's EXACTLY what I like about ats.

What you call 'fantasy' is another persons way to look for the truth on the subject. How do you know for sure that it's a fantasy? Only because you don't believe in the topic? Because you haven't seen proof of it (yet)?
The persons writing the so called 'fantasies' may very well not agree with your points of view either... but... isn't that exactly what you can expect from a discussion board???
If there isn't discussion and there aren't different perspectives then the truth will never be known... and that's true for all topics presented here on ATS.

For long time there has been credible information available that most extraordinary experiences (I am meaning likes of ghost, alien and demon encounters) are personal psychological experiences, fantasies and dreams. It doesn't mean that they aren't real, for psychic events are real as they happen. But people here are forcefully projecting these subjective realities into objective reality which they don't fit.

reply to post by v01i0


From ATS,

AboveTopSecret.com is the Internet's largest and most popular discussion board community dedicated to the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of "alternative topics" such as conspiracies, UFO's, paranormal, secret societies, political scandals, new world order, terrorism, and dozens of related topics with an impressive demographic mix of members.

First off all, you are projecting your subjective reality.

There is a lot of credible information that shows these things are real. If you want to dismiss it all as phantasy and dreams, maybe you should go look for another site.

As the above quote shows, this site is geared towards these subjects, and frankly, you come across as very arrogant.

ATS is great isn't it!!

Hi, I'm Sticky, I've had a paranormal experience I can't rationally explain to myself. So, I've become an ATS "Crazie" to help cope.

I'm just here for the news.... I Swear!!

Originally posted by Point of No Return

First off all, you are projecting your subjective reality [...] and frankly, you come across as very arrogant.

Acknowledged.

To my defense, I have to maintain that I've researched these matters in my own sphere of experiences. I've had some experiences that may be labeled "paranormal". Though paranormal is something I don't believe in, because there cannot be anything but normal, according the laws of existence. But there are things we may not be able to explain according our current understanding. And to all these extraordinary experiences I've had, I've also found an logical and pretty mundane explanation.

There cannot be any evidence except individual experience. If thousand people claim something that contradicts my own experiences, I'd still rather trust my own experience. I know I am "projecting" my own concepts and in the end there is a possibility that I am mistaken in a grand scale. However, there is no other way to validate existence than my own observations.

-v

Originally posted by GypsK

What you call 'fantasy' is another persons way to look for the truth on the subject. How do you know for sure that it's a fantasy? Only because you don't believe in the topic? Because you haven't seen proof of it (yet)?
The persons writing the so called 'fantasies' may very well not agree with your points of view either... but... isn't that exactly what you can expect from a discussion board???
If there isn't discussion and there aren't different perspectives then the truth will never be known... and that's true for all topics presented here on ATS.

I agree. I publicly recognized this in my previous posts. But as I replied to previous poster, I've had "mystical" experiences, but I do know that their explanation lies elsewhere than in "ghosts", "demons" and etc. All those are merely collective symbols of which object is not clearly know. But I know - in my subjective point of view, that is

It's not that I wouldn't tolerate alternative view. As I've indirectly pointed out, they speak of great richness in ways that humans perceive the reality. It is just that I sometimes do place too great emphasis on my own reflections when it comes into these issues.

And it is precisely because of "finding the truth" that motivates me to contradict these "ad-hoc" explanations of mystical experiences. My explanation must not be any worse than the prevailing ones.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


But why would you criticise the subjects, and the way people bring these subjects, when they are clearly the subjects this site focusses on?

Are you saying that because you have one opinion, others are not allowed to post theirs?

You come here for the news, ok, but show some respect for the rest of the site's subjects and posters.

It might help if you just stick to the Breaking News section, that way you don't have to impose your opinion on a large part of the community that does not dismiss entire subjects as dreams and phantasy.

reply to post by Point of No Return

Originally posted by Point of No Return
reply to post by v01i0

 

But why would you criticise the subjects, and the way people bring these subjects, when they are clearly the subjects this site focusses on?

Are you implying that forums focusing on those specific areas should only be sharing of experiences, not critical examination of their possible causes? I feel like I am contributing my experiences and reflections for the community. You don't have to agree on my views either.

Originally posted by Point of No Return
Are you saying that because you have one opinion, others are not allowed to post theirs?

Not at all. People post their opinions and I post mine. You should read more carefully what others post, because now it seems as if you would've missed large portions of my message.

Originally posted by Point of No Return
It might help if you just stick to the Breaking News section, that way you don't have to impose your opinion on a large part of the community that does not dismiss entire subjects as dreams and phantasy.

This is precisesly what I meant by previous paragraph. Dreams and fantasies are reality -- they do happen. They are psychological facts that people are experiencing. My mere purpose is an attempt to give a rational explanation on their (and mine) experiences.

Way I see it, demon and ghost encounters as well as alien abductions and such are mostly subjective experiences of inner realities, as I've tried to explain in my previous threads. I am quite sure people with firm belief in spirits and such will find them offending as well. I feel like they are dismissing this attitude because it reduces "mysticism" in "psychology" and hence it may remove bottom from their very beliefs. But as already agreed, it is our own choice how we wish to explain reality. We share same reality, but we perceive it subjectively.

Look, I've seen ghosts and I've heard voices - why then I am not posting on appropriate forums in asking for explanation? Because I've reflected these things by myself, I've looked inside and seen, that they are not other people experiences, but mine. They are subjective not objective, but nonetheless real in the sense. I've connected with my unconscious in a manner I thought was not possible. Based on those experiences which are at the base of my empiricism, I have come into understanding that they are nothing but products of my own psyche. Human psyche is very interesting thing if you pay attention in it. Hence the proverb "Man know thyself, and thy will know universe and it's gods."

These experiences become objective reality only in the sense that many people do experience them, and I see that it is for this precise reason why they have become influential in religious and spiritual movements and institutions. With certain techniques that I do not enclose here, human being is capable of entering internal worlds of his psyche. And sometimes this happens without conscious effort. Mostly in stressful situations and times.

I hope that this clarifies my intentions...

-v

[edit on 19-7-2010 by v01i0]

reply to post by v01i0

Are you implying that forums focusing on those specific areas should only be sharing of experiences, not critical examination of their possible causes? I feel like I am contributing my experiences and reflections for the community.

No, it's just that you seem to have made up your mind beforehand. You don't believe in the "paranormal", and because you have found an answer to your own experiences, you are saying that it applies to all experiences posted on ATS, wich is more so a case of projecting a subjective truth, than the ones you were describing.

Not at all. People post their opinions and I post mine. You should read more carefully what others post, because now it seems as if you would've missed large portions of my message.

Well, your posts are a bit confusing and hard to analyze the true intent.

On one hand you appear to be open-minded and objective, but the same subjectiveness keeps floating to the surface, showing the true gist of your posts.

For instance:

Most of those mornings I become disillusioned by the sheer amount of infantilism and pure fantasy of the topics. People report about demons, ghosts, UFOs, aliens, abductions, mythical creatures and so on. Most of the reports are so poor of quality that even affects the quality of the board (and the community) itself. Why are people so inclined in story telling, even not outright lying?

You are basically saying that most of the threads about these subjects are based on lies and phantasies.

Sure there are threads that sound ridiculous, but you are implying that the whole subjects are BS.

If ATS indeed would be reflection of society in micro scale, it would seem like we are living 800 AD or something. Ghosts, angels, demons or whatever still runs amok here. Luckily ATS might only reflect a part of society: of that which totally beliefs in fantasies. I know that there are some sane persons out here – I've befriended many of them.

I see, people that believe in such things are backwards. I get it, people that believe in such things are not sane. Those that don't can be your friends.

I recognize that most people expressing these extraordinary experiences are doing so because of fun they deliver. They are not really taking these things as granted, but rather toying with the thought that they might be.

I see, people that share these experiences are not to be trusted, because they have an hidden agenda.

I think I get your point.

These experiences become objective reality only in the sense that many people do experience them, and I see that it is for this precise reason why they have become influential in religious and spiritual movements and institutions. With certain techniques that I do not enclose here, human being is capable of entering internal worlds of his psyche. And sometimes this happens without conscious effort. Mostly in stressful situations and times. I hope that this clarifies my intentions...

Well, I've been there, and if you want to look at things like that, you might as well say that our whole reality is a dream and a phantasy, I would agree with that.

reply to post by Point of No Return


You are correct in some points you made (for example, everyone projects a subjective standpoint for there's no other option due our subjective experiences of the existence). But I've not made up my mind decisevely on any issue. I am just speaking from my experiences and current light of my understanding. Would there be contradictory experiences I would change my opinions, but since there hasn't been any, I am inclined to think that my current opinion is valid in explaining this stuff (for now).

I am not implying that those subjects outlined and discussed in this thread are rubbish. I have already stated many times that those experiences are real, but I see their causes lying in different reasons. For instance, someone sees

You are interpreting my words in a way which doesn't make justice to idea behind them. It leads me to ask your motives behind posting in this thread? If you are so certain that I tend subjectively project my views on to others, why not just ignore? Instead you give lenghty replies, constantly challenging and - in my opinion - somewhat unjustly twisting my words. Care to explain yourself? Wait, no need. I just took a look at your profile and it begins to dawn for me. You are taking this personally, aren't you? You have posted only one thread, namely To Debunkers and Skeptics, is every single theory on ATS bunk?

-v

PS. I think I am not only one guilty of projecting subjectively:

Originally posted by Point of No Return
Is it your ego that has to prove others wrong, is it for entertainment, or are you sincerely concerned with giving people the information that you think is the truth?"

[edit on 19-7-2010 by v01i0]

reply to post by v01i0

I just took a look at your profile and it begins to dawn for me. You are taking this personally, aren't you? You've only one thread, labeled "To Debunkers and Skeptics, is every single theory on ATS bunk?" -v PS. I think I am not only one guilty of projecting subjectively:

How typical, cross thread references, dragging my post history in it, seems like you are making it personal.

This always happens when people have no other way to respond.

What part of my question in that thread was subjective projecting?

I was asking a question to people that want to debunk every single theory on ATS.

Is that proof somehow that I'm biased and you are an innocent victim?

Aw.

I responded to you because I object to the generalisations you made, clearly shown in the qoutes in my previous post.

It's refreshing to see that you have to drag in an old thread of mine, to defend your own.

Weak.

I am not implying that those subjects outlined and discussed in this thread are rubbish. I have already stated many times that those experiences are real, but I see their causes lying in different reasons.

Jeah,

For long time there has been credible information available that most extraordinary experiences (I am meaning likes of ghost, alien and demon encounters) are personal psychological experiences, fantasies and dreams. It doesn't mean that they aren't real, for psychic events are real as they happen. But people here are forcefully projecting these subjective realities into objective reality which they don't fit.

They're real, but It's just phantasies and dreams.

Maybe I'm not getting the point, please explain exactly what you mean if you will.

You are interpreting my words in a way which doesn't make justice to idea behind them. It leads me to ask your motives behind posting in this thread? If you are so certain that I tend subjectively project my views on to others, why not just ignore? Instead you give lenghty replies, constantly challenging and - in my opinion - somewhat unjustly twisting my words.

Why not ignore? I don't know, because I have a spine?

Like I said, I don't like the way you are generalizing, so I will be pointing that out and of course you may perceive that as challenging.

I will be making full use of my rights as a member of the ATS community.

The biggest part of what I said was directly deductable from your comments.

Originally posted by Point of No Return

Why not ignore? I don't know, because I have a spine?

Like I said, I don't like the way you are generalizing, so I will be pointing that out and of course you may perceive that as challenging.

I will be making full use of my rights as a member of the ATS community.

The biggest part of what I said was directly deductable from your comments.

It's all right. I think I have nothing more to say at the moment as it seems it only provokes more furious responses. I've tried to make my stand clear, hopefully succeeding - if not, I cannot help it further.

I encourage you to use your rights as an ATS member. And thanks for the "criticism".

-v