Evolution says

reply to post by evil incarnate

Thanks for catching that.

I did mean Evolutionists. Sorry.

Natural-selection, gives a very good explanation for why the fossils (we do have) show progressive developments, within the safe specifies. However there are some serious questions about the probability of chance initiated, mutations being able to explain the whole story. I believe the gods work most by influencing chance. This is how curses and black magic work, and I think it’s the same with the evolution of new life forms.
Whatever the case, to say evolution provides all the answers (to how life is adapted) is a very unscientific (i.e. narrow-minded) state of mind. It’s popular with lots of Atheists, but then they’re a type of person (unlike Agnostics) precisely because they actually believe they know there is no god (which ironically uses thought paths, almost identical, to the strongest religious fanatic!).


Atheists usually say religion is (supposedly) a bad thing since it (apparently) causes lots of wars-deaths. What they-the media, always seem to forget is that Soviet Atheists killed 21 million Orthodox Christians, not including torture or other faiths.
en.wikipedia.org...
They history of State Atheism (French Rev onwards) is far bloodier than the crusades en.wikipedia.org... (because it’s a more modern event, and our populations have grown massively since medieval times, making more death possible).
Look around the world today, and you see a western world that wants: Oil, consumerism, the prosperity of Israel, as well as free trade.
Then you have an “Arab world” impoverished by massive a tribal society, with a high birth rate, because Tribalism is incompatible with Westernisation.

The fact we have different religions, just makes better military propaganda. It’s sucks we’re (largely) on the receiving end. But it doesn’t mean religion hasn’t helped us win battles-survive in the past.

Religions help’s people, to be better people. That might in a creative way, like giving-providing charity (which many churches-religious people do). Or it might be in destructive ways, i.e. being better soldiers. Either way, mankind (as a whole) is far better for the existence of religion. This was true in the past, and so one to hope there is a god, is because it will still be true in the future anyway, (since it takes a long time for mankind to change).

the one thing i seriously dont understand about this argument is that it almost goes without saying that this person has no understanding or education of natural selection. I have read the bible, why not read about evolution before making strange unintelligible remarks about it?

Originally posted by SeekerForLight
I have read the bible, why not read about evolution before making strange unintelligible remarks about it?

Because creationists think like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/12f799e72c57.jpg[/atsimg]

I too have read the bible, interesting

Originally posted by randyvs
This is what I call," the double wide standard" evolutionist are holding in the belief of their theory, they keep trying to pass off as fact.

There is the Theory of Evolution, and there the process of evolution.

The process of evolution is the change in the gene frequency of a population. This happens all the time.

The Theory of Evolution is an explanation of how and why evolution works. Parts of Evolutionary Theory include Natural Selection, Genetic Drift, etc.

Originally posted by randyvs
They won't for one second consider God or even any kind of spirituality.

Science relies on empirical evidence and the ability to test and observe. Science doesn't consider it because the very definition of most deities make them unfalsifiable.

Evolution doesn't exclude the possibility of a god. Again if there is one, you wouldn't be able to test for it. However, science tends to refute the idea that all animals were created in their present form only a few thousand years ago.

reply to post by Phlynx

Not only is the apple said to be extremely tasty – it has a 'berry nuance' – it is even healthier than your average apple as its red flesh is richer in antioxidants.

Phlynx what the hell is it with you? You seek out my weakness quite often it seems. I love apples. I admit it, I love em. I love'em when they are crisp and cold. I do love em.
You made that apple sound so good .I want one bad.Damn it
OZ
Ya that ones already gett'in old Oz.

4nsiphd

You mean the omnipotent all-knowing creator of "junk DNA???

Talk about junk? I've never had a flu shot and never will.
Ya !Ya! I get ur poiint.

Fear

I'm not trying to be offensive but I really wonder how they morally justify eating their Cousins.

Why not be offense and low brow at the same time. Seems to be in Nophuns genes. Rarely does he make a non condecending post.

[edit on 18-7-2010 by randyvs]

Oh, is it that time again? Time for the weekly Randy vs evolution rant thread?

FYI, just last month they found another missing link in the form of a common ape/human ancestor

I know believers love taking shots at evolution, but why don't you start doing the same with the bible and Christianity. It's a bit hyprocritical to take shots at evolution while believing in something that isn't proven with facts AT ALL! Yes, not at all...it's not as if there's only "small gaps in knowledge", no! The whole thing is basically not backed up by any credible facts. Yet you continue to attack evolution as if that would validate your own belief

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/723b63dd22f2.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0ce4f6bc4950.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4354d47b4380.jpg[/atsimg]



[edit on 18-7-2010 by MrXYZ]

reply to post by MrXYZ

Saadanius
en.wikipedia.org...

www.guardian.co.uk...

By the way, in science FACTS are the LEAST important element, facts don't tell you much - they are just pieces of data. A theory on the other hand is a framework within which laws, facts, observations, hypotheses and conclusions are unified. The fact is that when we studied life all the facts point toward evolution. The fossil record, behavioral studies, the appearance of organisms, genetics,

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Here is another possible and even more probable definition of THEORY.
Cocerning evolution.
An idea with in which laws, facts, observations, hypotheses and conclusions
are manipulated, unprovable, unfounded, covered up and some times straight out lied about. Why do I say that? Human nature is at play.

Oz

Double standard indeed

I'm really surprised by you lately Oz. I never would 've identified a cream
puff post like that as belonging to you.
Evolutionists and their atheist counterpals are the ones whining about proof all the time. Common knowledge.
Seems the bath water and the baby go out here though.

[edit on 18-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs

This is what I call," the double wide standard" evolutionist are holding in the belief of their theory, they keep trying to pass off as fact. They won't for one second consider God or even any kind of spirituality. For if they do they must consider God to be a possibility and treat that possibility with respect.

Dr. Francis Collins would strongly disagree with you. As the head of the Human Genome Project, Collins is a pretty significant scientist, a biologist who knows evolution is fact and understands the Theory of Evolution as the best explanation for for that fact. He is also an Evangelical Christian who has no trouble at all justifying his personal certainty about both evolution and God's Creation.



There is really no reason for your fear of learning about the astonishing universe that you are a part of. If, as you claim to do, you believe that God Created the world, then God created it as it is and commanded Man to become its master. What else could that possibly mean other than learn about the world.

Open your eyes to the magnificent universe! Rejoice in the wonderfully intricate interactions between life in all its variety. Deny ignorance a foothold.

This video is 2 hours long, but in it Collins discusses at some length why evolution is fact, why ID is wrong, and why there is never the less still room for creation.




[edit on 18/7/2010 by rnaa]

reply to post by rnaa


Posts like this are like some one dragging their nails across a chalk board.

Dr. Francis Collins would strongly disagree with you. As the head of the Human Genome Project, Collins is a pretty significant scientist, a biologist who knows evolution is fact and understands the Theory of Evolution as the best explanation for for that fact. He is also an Evangelical Christian who has no trouble at all justifying his personal certainty about both evolution and God's Creation

a biologist who knows evolution is fact and understands the Theory of Evolution as the best explanation for for that fact.

I'm supposed to make sense of that?

As for the rest of your post. Soooooooooooo.....................

Oh and can you please point out where, I said I was afraid of something anything? Is english your second language?

To all...
If someone dosn't speak to this "double wide standard" adaquetly.I will be spoon feeding it all over this site till some one does and that is not a threat cause I don't make threats.

Well ok it is a threat and I'm making an exception just this once.



[edit on 18-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs

Here is another possible and even more probable definition of THEORY. Cocerning evolution. An idea with in which laws, facts, observations, hypotheses and conclusions are manipulated, unprovable, unfounded, covered up and some times straight out lied about. Why do I say that? Human nature is at play.

It is so sad that when Creationists have their lies or ignorance exposed they would rather resort to acting as if they're still right after they've been proven wrong. We show them evidence of evolution, realities and observed facts for which there is no explanation offered by the Bible or any other ancient text - facts which ONLY make sense in light of evolution - and all they do is reject that and pretend they've won.

Randy, I, and others in this thread, have already provided the scientific negation and logical destruction of everything you put forth in your OP. You've lost whether you'd like to pretend you're winning or not.

But tell me, what conclusions from the Bible's creation account (or any others) have been proven scientifically? Please show me the evidence that men are made of dirt and women of ribs all spoken into existence at some point in the past by a magical sky man.



[edit on 18-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Phlynx

 

Not only is the apple said to be extremely tasty – it has a 'berry nuance' – it is even healthier than your average apple as its red flesh is richer in antioxidants.

Phlynx what the hell is it with you? You seek out my weakness quite often it seems. I love apples. I admit it, I love em. I love'em when they are crisp and cold. I do love em.
You made that apple sound so good .I want one bad.Damn it

[edit on 18-7-2010 by randyvs]

I love to hear what you think about the apple, but I give you a perfectly good example of human created evolution, and you completely ignore it? It is an example of one species changing from an other! Explain how that doesn't prove evolution. I know it is human created, but it is just speeding up a natural system.

Find a hole in that. One species changing to another.

Sometimes it is valid to call something both a fact and a theory. One example of this is gravity. This is the name given to the phenomenon whereby massive bodies are attracted to one other. For example, the moon and the Earth are attracted to each other, which is why they don't fly apart as they move through space. This phenomenon is an observed fact: Henry Cavendish actually measured the force of attraction between two lead spheres back in 1797. Different theories for why and how this phenomenon occurs have been put forth. Newton's theory of gravitation (that it is a force acting instantaneously at a distance) was accepted for centuries until Einstein's general theory of relativity completely changed our understanding of gravity (now considered a warping of space-time). In this sense, gravity is both a fact and a theory.

The same can be said for evolution. If evolution is defined as "allele frequency change in a population over generations" (or, more simply, "populations change over time"), then it is an established fact; not even creationists can deny that this takes place. On the other hand, the theory of evolution is a scientific theory that ties together evidence of the types of changes that we see taking place in nature, as well as evidence from fossils, genes, proteins, and so on, to explain why and how evolution happens.

reply to post by Phlynx

I love to hear what you think about the apple, but I give you a perfectly good example of human created evolution, and you completely ignore it? It is an example of one species changing from an other! Explain how that doesn't prove evolution. I know it is human created, but it is just speeding up a natural system.

It seems to me you show me adaptation. Micro. and genetic manipulation and you want me to say ok ya, yall are righ. That share is evolution. Where is
this, "Well we've never seen him, but he must be around here somewhere" magical skyape you say exists. Oh wait he prolly died out
unlike the newcomers/ offshoots/mutations/W/E and what was left of them got washed away by the flood.

Titen
Titen the only one who's mentioned winning or losing is you. I see that as very narrow minded. I stay close to my morals and speak the truth as I know it. You can't bring any evidence of this goo to yoo via the zoo ancestor. So why don't you just become a believer in God samething .
Why try to go around proving there was a magic show that happened without the magician.

That's pretty crazy, to have that much faith in some critter no one has ever seen.



[edit on 18-7-2010 by randyvs]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs

Why try to go around peoving there was a magic that happened without the magician?

There's nothing magical about the Universe or life. Are they improbable, perhaps, are they amazing, yes, does the fact we're so amazed mean they are magic? No. We studied life looking for a creator, the first biologists were all believers, some still are today.

Want transitional forms of human ancestors: List of human evolution fossils

That link has already been posted of course, I'm sure you just ignored it or pretended it wasn't evidence as you likely did for the link Nophun posted to Saadanius

Edit to Add: That's what I'm referring to when I say you're pretending you won. People have already posted what you've asked for and you continue to pretend it doesn't count.

Those wouldn't count as evidence for you of course because your mind is already made up. You've decide to believe myth over evidence and superstition over knowledge. I know, I used to be a Creationist too believe it or not. Sooner or later reality sinks in though, well, for most of us.

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


No I already looked at it. What do you think I don't have enough time on my hands. I'm here almost as much as you. Which in my mind is more scary than coming face to face with one of those ugly suckas that still don't identify this ancestor you speak of. I know all about the ugly humans
odd looking apes that like many other species have died out in the past.
Are you passing these singulars off as this ancestor. I hope not because I would have a hard time even acussing you of that.

Speak to point of this thread Titen. Sorry Titen you really don't have that
coming.

[edit on 18-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


I never spoke of an ancestor Randy, you did. What you are demanding as been provided, our evolutionary lineage as we understand it based on the fossil evidence. Are there gaps? Sure, we don't have one of every species we used to be because evolution is continuous and fossilization rare. What we do have fits with everything evolution predicted, that we would find hominids like us but that also shared characteristics with earlier primates. Genetic similarities also bear this out, we even found that one of our chromosomes is a fused Chimp chromosome (Nophun posted about this earlier).

So tell me Randy, what answer for this does the Bible have? What does your book of magic say about why the deeper we go in the strata the more simple the organisms become? What does your ancient tome say about why God made man so much like the other apes, so much so as to imply evolution? The Bible has no answers because it was written by primitives who couldn't have known about evolution or any of the evidence we have today, their best answer was that a God did it.

But we live in the 21st century, you could spend hours online learning about gene duplication, frame shift mutations, speciation, genetic drift, and just Evolution in general. Knowledge is a click away, there's no reason to rely on conclusions for which there is no evidence even if Evolution hasn't quite convinced you yet.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

So tell me Randy, what answer for this does the Bible have? What does your book of magic say about why the deeper we go in the strata the more simple the organisms become? What does your ancient tome say about why God made man so much like the other apes, so much so as to imply evolution? The Bible has no answers because it was written by primitives who couldn't have known about evolution or any of the evidence we have today, their best answer was that a God did it.

Look I will ask you this once ok, to please drop the mocking, sarcastic ,magic crap? Have you ever heard me say," it was magic what did it" those rocks come from your side of the fence. Why is it you think you need to do that?
You know the Bible well Titen. Certainly you know what it says, it's in Genesis I believe. So you show me a list of singulars. Are you saying that mankind and primates may be descended possibly from a single common ancestor. like a mutation? If so say it. I always suspected this would be a
race or more than one so maybe I'm wronly thinking in that respect.

The Bible wasn't written by quite the primitives you suggest though Titen.
It speaks long and hard about things that are important for mans survival and as I have shown you before there are many things in the Bible that Science is in agreement with. So have a little respect for something that is at the very least a literary marvel from the ancient world.

You know the dust bowl in the thirties could have been completely avoided if people would have stuck close to what the Bible says. But they were being pushed by Who? THE BANKERS. They had to produce every year
to pay their mortgages. Many of thiose old farmers even knew that something was about to give because the Bible says Plant for Seven years
And skip one year. To let the soil replenish. Can you see at all where I'm coming from. The Bible dosn't deserve disrespect from any one.
Especially mjen of knowledge like yourself. I find it appaulling and unnecessary. Besides hasn't it proven itself indestructible even to you.

reply to post by randyvs


Hey Randy! It has been a while since we last talked; however, I do not believe you understand the true mechanism of evolution. Evolution is not the beginning of life or how life started; but rather it is how life changed over time to create the present day animals that we see today. Evolution at its simplest definition means nothing more than: To Change. As long as change is occurring evolution is occurring. No matter if it is cellular or physical. And it does not necessarily mean progress in the species, it could very well hurt the species or the animal. Change has been occurring for billions of years! We can observe it today in ourselves and following it through our ancestors. The missing link or the beginning ape like creature went extinct probably after the first major evolutionary change into an upright walking animal. We know that animals go extinct all the time and therefore, we can assume with high probability that this first stump of ape went extinct when its newer generation of apes was able to move about easier and access food easier and do things that the older generation could not do.

It is change through a species, very slowly. For instance and example: A male and female human of today mate with each other and give birth to a child with a slightly different genetic trait. Usually the odd genetic trait would be passed down from father to son. Because of the Y chromosome which is basically a deformed X chromosome. This slightly different genetic marker, in this offspring which will be a boy, we will remember as Offspring T. Offspring T then mates with a "regular" woman and gives birth to two more sons. Each of these boys now carry the genetic oddity of there father in Offspring T. Through many more years this gene no longer becomes an oddity, but will eventually become a regularity, through reproduction of that lineage. This will include different prototypical features and genotypes. Now I want to make something clear this will not affect the entire human population! This will affect this lineage alone. They have essentially branched off into a new genetic factor.

As stated before this maybe a gene that will give rise to a green skin down the line or stronger bones. Of course you will probably say that this is not evolution, but "micro" evolution. I will humbly say that you are wrong. Micro evolution does occur, but the change will not be labeled micro, because it is no longer micro when it presents itself. It is at this point very prominent and no longer Micro. Of course you may also say that this is adaptation, but then again you would be wrong, because adaptation does not necessarily require change of the genetic structure to keep the animal alive.

Simply. Evolution is Change. It happens. Its biggest evidence is the fossil record. We have animals alive today that were not around millions of years ago. You will probably say the flood changed that. Of course, once again you would be wrong. The flood COULD NOT POSSIBLY rearrange the entire geographic underworld. If that happened I have my doubts that we would be here today. Seriously, if the flood happened it simply could not have the ability to make every fossil rearranged in the ground. The fossil record is our most pristine and vital history book.

The above is a basic rundown and trust me I could have delved into some serious stuff, but it is late and I am tired. And I think I would just confuse everyone who is not into science. So I will simply leave you with this: Take what I said above with Offspring T and apply it to the T-rex evolving into the chicken (While applying genetic drift and scaling for the ever changing world). You will definitely see how evolution is possible then.