Burka Ban Ruled Out As 'Rather Un-British'

reply to post by Pryde87

Can I wear a tank top or shorts in Saudi Arabia....I dont think so.

That is because Saudi Arabia is not a free country. It is more or less a dictatorship ran by a King. Is that what you want for your beloved England.

Burqa is cultural. Not religious!

There is evidence that this type of dress was worn by some Arab and Persian women long before Islam. For example, the Roman African Christian Tertullian, writing in Chapter 17 of The Veiling of Virgins around 200 AD, praises the modesty of those "pagan women of Arabia" who "not only cover their head, but their whole face...preferring to enjoy half the light with one eye rather than prostituting their whole face."[2] Strabo, writing in the first century AD, also refers to covering the face as a practice of some Persian women (Geography 11.13. 9-10).

Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam).

The Quran has been translated as stating: "O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments (jilbabs) close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle." [3].

Another verse in the Quran is translated as: "And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful" [4]


Source

In other words, women were to hide their private parts.. breast and so forth (their beauty) so that men did not lust after them. No where in the Koran does it stipulate that they must hide their identity (face).

IRM

[edit on 19/7/10 by InfaRedMan]

reply to post by InfaRedMan


Who care whether it is religious or cultural or none of the above. Should your citizens not be allowed to wear whatever clothes they choose?

Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

The thing is ... we can't wear Ski-masks, balaclavas , masks , hoodies in public places - so why should Muslims be excluded?

This is the point that people are making.

I wasn't aware of that fact actually.

I thought those were legal to wear in public places, they sure are here in Canada, except for places such as stores or government offices, but in OPEN public you can pretty much wear what you want.

If that's the case, then the burka isn't a religious garment anyway, it's a cultural one, however that's still something to be respected.

Is there a lot of "masked muslim" crime?

I mean, I just don't see what the general problem is with the burka....

IMO because there's no logical or valid reason to prevent the women who wear them from doing so, this seems more of an anti-islam move and not so much one about public safety.

~Keeper

[edit on 7/19/2010 by tothetenthpower]

Originally posted by ZuluChaka
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

Who care whether it is religious or cultural or none of the above. Should your citizens not be allowed to wear whatever clothes they choose?

Then explain why our British born citizens either can't wear hoodies, masks, balaclavas etc

Or why British born muslim feel obliged to wear the oppresive shackles of a purely patriarchal society in the 21st century of equal rights?

reply to post by mr-lizard

Then explain why our British born citizens either can't wear hoodies, masks, balaclavas etc

Or why British born muslim feel obliged to wear the oppresive shackles of a purely patriarchal society in the 21st century of equal rights?

Well for part 1 of your question the answer is obvious, both your citizens and your government has lost their minds. You guys need to stand up for your rights and fight to wear whatever the heck you want.

For part 2, because they want to. I doubt every muslim woman feels like a burka is like shackles. My guess is they see it as part of their clothing like wearing shoes.

I dont understand why women wear stuff that covers their rear ends either because it obstructs my view or why fat people wear way too tight clothes, but then I still acknowledge their right to where whatever they want.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by ZuluChaka
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

Who care whether it is religious or cultural or none of the above. Should your citizens not be allowed to wear whatever clothes they choose?

Then explain why our British born citizens either can't wear hoodies, masks, balaclavas etc

Or why British born muslim feel obliged to wear the oppresive shackles of a purely patriarchal society in the 21st century of equal rights?

where in uk law does it say you cant wear hoodies, I wear them and have never been stopped by anyone for wearing one.

why does the Burka bother you. Is it really a massive problem? i mean with everything else wrong in the world are Burkas such a bad thing that they need to be banned?

I very rarely see women in Burka's so maybe I just dont encounter any problems. What problems have you faced with women wearing Burka's?

LMAO at the irony of an American calling other nation's citizens "scared". You guys are the most frightened, paranoid little rabbits on the planet. Can't even sleep at night without a gun under your pillow. Pathetic.

Also, as far as I'm aware, no items of clothing are banned in the UK. Some are banned in certain situations, for example before a biker enters a bank or supermarket he/she is required to remove his/her helmet, which is just basic common sense. But you are certainly free to walk down the high street with your balaclava or helmet on, you'll get some funny looks and MAYBE the police will stop you and have a word and see what the hell you're doing, but you won't get arrested or anything for it.

I know this for a fact because one of my friends, who is a journalist, did an experiment a couple of years ago. Him and 2 of his mates drove to a mosque in London somewhere, parked his car just outside the mosque then all 3 of them put on balaclavas and just sat in the car chatting. Obviously the sight of these 3 balaclava wearing man sitting in a car outside a mosque caused a bit of a stir and the 3 of them had to endure a lot of abuse from the Muslims going to mosque, spitting at the windows etc. Also the police were called, they had a quick word with the 3 guys, who explained what they were doing. The police told them they were doing nothing illegal and so they couldn't do anything and left. End of story.

reply to post by Lurch

LMAO at the irony of an American calling other nation's citizens "scared". You guys are the most frightened, paranoid little rabbits on the planet. Can't even sleep at night without a gun under your pillow. Pathetic.

LOL, at least we still have the right to bear arms an arent left totally dependent on our government for protection. If you ever had the freedom to sleep with a gun under your pillow, you would realise you are not a bit afraid, because you are in control of your own safety.

Personally,,, I dont have a gun in the house, because I have never felt the need for one. I keep mine locked in a storage facility in case I ever need to defend my family from tyranny. Well that and I have a short fuse, so I dont want to pop a cap in my neighbor because he accidentally left tire tracks in my lawn backing his camper in his driveway.

[edit on 19-7-2010 by ZuluChaka]

Good decision. Most people probably object to burkas because they're just scary looking, but that also is conditioned response. How does it really threaten anyone else? So some people who intend to commit crimes might don a burka (from another brilliant thread on this subject) or otherwise cover their faces. So what? To deduce that burkas should be outlawed because this might happen or because you're scared would be setting a scary precedent.While we're at it let's outlaw makeup because it covers some very scary naked faces and can be used as a disguise in committing a crime. Let's outlaw long artificial nails because they can be weaponized.

Plus, people who wear burkas are actually brilliant...miles ahead of most of us in thwarting the face recognition and surveillance cameras. Maybe we should all start covering our faces

Oh and why would someone need to see my face in a supermarket

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
And those who mask their intolerance with non sensical statements about gene pools and sharia law...

~Keeper

Or those who mask their intentions with nonsensical garments under the guise of sharia law....

Sunglasses! Outlaw those too! And big coats you can hide machine guns under! Oh and violin cases!

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Really the only proper thing for the Europeans to do is to ban clothing all together. The only thing that would mess that one up is their need to level the playing field for all, because some people have been granted larger weaponry by their creator and some guy will feel demeaned and then they will have to have mandatory penis reductions until all are equally small.

I don't mind if woman wear burkas, i don't mind if they don't wear them either...ohhh the drama.

sorry i am going to post without reading the rest as i want to get my thoughts down first

yes banning the burka is un-brittish as weare suppoesed to be a welcoming and tolerant nation who accepts everyone with open arms, how about a compromise instead of an allout ban why not make then remove the face veil while in stores/public buildings in the same way you can get told to take a hat or motorcycle helmet off, but as for a full-on burka ban i am against it.

before anyone says this country is for english only look at the countrys history we have been invaded and dominated so many times that thier is no such thing as an english bloodline

just incase you were wondering with what "labels"i would describe myself

yes i am british, yes i was born here, yes i am "white", no i am not ashamed to be white as it is really a non-issue, do i understand islam completely no, do i hold my ignorance against them no, its their choice let them make it, but if a place needs to be secure i.e bank then give them the ability to ask the veil be removed while on site the same as they do with biker helmets and hockey masks, stocking or anything else you put on your head.

just my thoughts and i wont contribute any further if you want to discuss any points i have made u2u me

Can I just say that comparing the burka with wearing a scarf or a hoodie is quite stupid. The burka is an item of clothing which is explicitly linked with women and Islam.

The burka is seen by many as an item which oppresses women. I am not a woman – nor a Muslim – so it is difficult for me to judge, but I think that the wearing of such items which disallow facial recognition and eye contact is culturally insensitive in the UK, whereby the culture norms are dependent and based upon the face being uncovered.

I would not be inclined to make the wearing of the burka illegal per se. I would however support any – and every – measure which makes the wearing of burkas and associated clothing which obscures or hides the face in any job illegal. I would take this further to say that I will refuse to be served by anyone who has not got the decency or cultural sensitivity to show me their face.

Regards

reply to post by ZuluChaka

Well, if the flying rules keep trending in the direction they're going in, soon the only way anyone will be able to fly anywhere would be naked, bound, and drugged, so why not? Yes, just outlaw clothing altogether. Hats are evil and hide things too. They should be the next to go. After makeup and long nails, that is.

reply to post by paraphi

It's up to the women to decide for themselves whether they are being oppressed or not, and if so, to take the steps for themselves to break the shackles. Until then, you're right. You can't judge.

Other than maybe modeling and maybe acting, in what jobs is seeing someone's face mandatory? How many jobs are there where this actually matters?

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Other than maybe modeling and maybe acting, in what jobs is seeing someone's face mandatory? How many jobs are there where this actually matters?

Every job where there is face to face contact. It is culturally insenitive to to assume the person opposite you is accepting of a situation where they cannot see your face. Effective communication requires access to none verbal cues et al.

Regards

edit spelling corrected

[edit on 19/7/2010 by paraphi]

reply to post by paraphi

Is the opposite not culturally insensitive as well? What specific jobs?