The Shroud of Turin – Miracle or Man made?

really, there is no better explanation that i can find than the one in the documentary.

go to this page and go to the 8:37 mark in the video.

it's over right after that, so then go to the next video and start it from the beginning.

if you want to go right to the part about the holographic image forming on the cloth, go to the 4:33 mark in that video (part 4).

either way, you only have to watch until about the 8:00 mark.

the space between the beginning and 4:33 is about the images of the flowers and coins that was also rendered onto the cloth, somehow. the flowers proved to be from the area around modern Israel and a couple of them, at least one, is found no where else in the world. the coin proved to be from the reign of Tiberius.

reply to post by queenannie38


Oh ok, thanks. That does make a lot more sense but then it leaves me to wonder what position this radiating body would be in such that the cloth lay perfectly flat above and below them at the same time. Any speculation on that?

reply to post by evil incarnate


i'm thinking just levitating in a supine position, like the image in the video shows, when they show what Dame Isabel discovered.

i guess the body could have been stood upright in whatever the event was, that made the effect on the cloth, but i think that the way the image is on the cloth somehow shows that the body is supine.

i need to watch the whole movie again, to refresh myself. plus i understand a little bit more about physics than i did when i first saw it, so i might gain some more understanding.

Who cares? real or unreal, how does it change anything we do in the faith? It accounts for nothing. There is nothing in 'the way' as it was originally called that had anything to do with any icon or worship of any 'thing'.

Anything that will 'pass away' is wqorth absolutely zero in the Kingdom and thats why the church will have to endure a shakeup till all the dead fruit fall off. Whats left will be the reality of the faith and nothing else.

Any upholding of a statue or a 'holy' relic is unbiblical and un Christlike. I don't care what church you're in. I'm not talkign about respect and reverence ofr leaders but the holding up of inanimate things as something 'holy' and wrothy of some sort of reverence or worship.

reply to post by daggyz


yes, there is validity in what you say and i can't argue against you with any credence.

HOWEVER, what re-sparked my own interest in this shroud is the possibility that it is the key to unlocking the mysteries of particle and quantum physics!

i have long suspected that the mysterious realm of physics is the realm of GOD, and the more and more i find out about physics, as they discover new things, i suspect it all the more.

understanding the nature of the universe is what stands in our way of exploring same, in a meaningful way. perhaps even a new means of transportation in space will be found, because of this; one that requires far less expenditure and human effort, not to mention the risk to human life undertaken with each new venture out of Earth orbit.

really, there seems to be no end to the practical improvements of earthly life possible hidden behind the mystery curtain of quantum mechanics and particle physics!

and that would be a benefit to all human beings, not just "christians" or even believers in Jesus and/or GOD~!
which is something i can see as being very divine and gracious and fair and wonderful.
more along the lines of operation of the GOD i know.

it's more than clear that either one believes or one does not believe. either way, the stance of each individual is more or less immovable. that's the way belief works, as we all know.

GOD surely knows this, too, and knows way better than any of us that it is prudent not to beat a dead horse.

Jesus himself told us that everything that was hidden will eventually be revealed. this statement was never explained or qualified and as such, cannot be assumed to mean only spiritual concepts.

"science" is one side of a coin that has "spirituality" on the other side. i think the coin is GOD's coin.

just my personal opinion on what the purpose might be for this shroud, if indeed it turns out to be the burial shroud of Jesus. everything WILL pass away like grass, no doubt. but maybe this shroud is the key to what lies beyond the void when all the rest is gone.

I think that even if it was proven a hoax, Christians would yell conspiracy and believe it real as they do many other things in life. And if it were proven to be authentic , then only the positive ID of the maker or the man would be required.


One thing though , if the shroud is real and I am certain it is not for 1 reason... the blood. By tradition the body is washed and purified very carefully before burial or entombment . The blood from the figures head and appendages would already have been dried anyways so it would have been washed off and seeing as Jesus had his own tomb and ceremony I do not see why this process would not have happened.

After death the body no longer bleeds and the shroud shows the wounds as still bleeding at wrapping or the time of entombment...but only the wounds that would identify him as one crucified with a crown of thorns. Odd as Jesus had many wounds inflicted on the cross.

If the body was wrapped without cleaning the blood from other wounds would have been all over. Instead they are just found where people could conclude this was Jesus and seems a bit conspicuous .

Originally posted by IamBoon
After death the body no longer bleeds and the shroud shows the wounds as still bleeding at wrapping or the time of entombment...but only the wounds that would identify him as one crucified with a crown of thorns.

not necessarily.
it depends on how long the body has been dead - the blood can still flow out for some time afterward, and especially if there are wounds that are disturbed by cleaning. it is the scabbing over that stops the bleeding, not death.

i know because i am an RN and i've seen plenty of dead bodies still bleeding.

Originally posted by evil incarnate
reply to post by queenannie38

 

... but then it leaves me to wonder what position this radiating body would be in such that the cloth lay perfectly flat above and below them at the same time. Any speculation on that?

the cloth was flat because the image was projected on it by a 'camera obscura'

the cloth was processed with various light sensitive & light reactive agents/aloes/oils, etc
to create a very faint image which faded... so that the intended 'icon'
never made it to the showtime curcuit of the medieval-enlightenment era.

thank DaVinci for the (very faint) negative image icon

IMHO

reply to post by St Udio


nope.

the first known appearance of this shroud was BEFORE Leonardo was born.

even if we accept what might be an inaccurate carbon 14 test result, from 1988, we can say that the shroud dates from between 1260 to 1390 AD. also, there is a coin on display in Paris that is a commemorative of the shroud, showing monks holding the shroud, which dates from the mid-14th century - specifically the first documented occasion of the shroud being displayed in public, in a church in Lirey, France.
it was 1357.

Leonardo was born in 1452.

so....nope, not Leonardo.

reply to post by queenannie38

Originally posted by queenannie38
Leonardo was born in 1452.

so....nope, not Leonardo.

If you believe that they are the same shroud that is;

www.abovetopsecret.com...

i was just perusing the cropcircleconnector.com site, wondering what the latest crop circles look like, and i found a ww

(there is a thread on this particular crop circle but i didn't want the possible correlation to this thread to get lost in all the inevitable bickering inherent to a crop circle thread at ATS)

2 circles, near to one another, both discovered on July 30th:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a612de3c2e26.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/50a39503b6fb.jpg[/atsimg]

source

source

now, i'm not one of those who tends to see Jesus and his mama in all manner of foodstuffs and inanimate objects and scorchmarks, etc.

but i immediately thought that the second one (the first one i saw) was uncannily like the image on the Shroud!

so i looked at the rest of the pages, etc, and found that it is the general consensus, combining the two images as one.
also, they believe there might be a binary code embedded in the design, itself.

this idea appeals to me, because for some time, i've held the conviction that

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5c5e9dffb5a8.gif[/atsimg]

but THIS is what got me:

With regard to this pair of agri-glyphs, they each appear to be 3 dimensional data represented in two dimensions. We have the X and Y co-ordinates flat on the ground, and the vertical or Z axis may well be represented by correlating the size of each circle with a height on the Z axis.

Creating this structure on a computer and arranging the glyphs in proximity, might produce a 3-dimensional head similar to what appeared in two dimensions at Chilbolton some time back.

Not too much different than the Shroud of Turin image, but more likely to depict Our Friends as they -- apparently -- seek to encourage gentle contact.

I might add that the centre of the East Field, nr Alton Barnes, Wiltshire. Reported 26th July. image appears to me to be a star map, complete with travel routes. Perhaps a good astronomer might recognize this arrangement of stars. Thus, almost as if to say, 'Hi, we're from !' ... followed by 'and we look like this!'

source

now, just to clarify, as to my own ideas: i do not think that crop circles come from "alien" activity. i see it as coming from the Earth, herself, through the water from the core, via geo-electro-magnetism.

just sayin'.

but wow!
i wonder what all this means?

[Quote]Ancient cloth, as it was manufactured in the Middle East during the first century, was starched on the loom and then washed in suds of the Soapwort plant. Ingredients of this natural soap are hemolytic, which would keep the blood red. [/Quote]

This is very interesting. I have this plant outside and it's very pretty in the Spring and has small pink blooms. It's the roots of the plant that are used to wash clothes. I've never tried it....really!


Some think the shroud resembles Appolonius of Tyana.

Great OP Rising Against! Lots of information about the shroud. I saw a couple of guys on TV just two days ago trying to duplicate the shroud using different methods and they were pretty close with their replicas, but not exact. They think they can make it exact though, still working on it I guess.

Originally posted by g146541
reply to post by Rising Against

 

Seeing is how it has been tested before and there are conflicting reports.
Some say that the corner tested had been repaired by master craftsmen by weaving or reweaving the burnt and damagedd areas.

That sort of answers a question I had about the so-called "repair". If it was repaired where the carbon dating samples were extracted, why do we not see a seam of some sort where the repair occurred? I'm no expert on re-weaving linen to repair it, but it sounds pretty incredible to make such a seamless repair, but that could just be my ignorance of capabilities to make such repairs.

It sure seems like if there was evidence of a repair, it would have been nice to know this BEFORE taking the samples, so the samples could come from an unrepaired area.

However I agree with those who say shape of the face indicates the image isn't an image formed from being wrapped around a body. The face would appear to be much wider if that were so.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
That sort of answers a question I had about the so-called "repair". If it was repaired where the carbon dating samples were extracted, why do we not see a seam of some sort where the repair occurred? I'm no expert on re-weaving linen to repair it, but it sounds pretty incredible to make such a seamless repair, but that could just be my ignorance of capabilities to make such repairs.

there is a technique, now called "french" or "invisible" weaving, wherein the damaged cloth is replaced by weaving each individual thread onto/into a thread from the patch material.

it has got to be one of the most tedious tasks ever known to man!
but it results in a seamless, near invisible, repair!

here are some source links:

medieval shroud repair
celebrating invisible weaving
without a trace

from that last link:

French Reweave
Also known as the Invisible Weave, this technique is done on select fabrics with small tears, holes and burns. Individual thread strands from hidden areas, such as a cuff or inseam, are actually woven together by hand. This creates new fabric as it closes the hole and the repair is virtually indistinguishable from the surrounding fabric. Some fabrics, such as gabardine, don’t always lend to completely invisible results. Anticipated results will be discussed before attempting the weaving.

evidently, the nuns at the cloister who repaired the damage from a fire, back in the middle ages, were aces at this reweaving technique and worked their magic on this piece of cloth!


..curiouser and curiouser!

I dont have any proof that it is real or not. I watched a show on the histroy channel, that was very convincing that the shroud is real from the perspective that it was not man made. It has real blood they dont know how the image was put on the shroud and also why has it stood the test of time. Obviously people have kept it knowing it was a sacered piece of history.

Originally posted by queenannie38

without a trace

evidently, the nuns at the cloister who repaired the damage from a fire, back in the middle ages, were aces at this reweaving technique and worked their magic on this piece of cloth!

Thanks for the links. I watched the video in the withoutatrace link and they sped it up but it still looks harder than building the pyramids to me! That's amazing!

Were you just joking about the nuns? I didn't see them mentioned in any of your links. And I note that there's still plenty of fire damage visible, how many fires was this thing in? Why just repair some of the fire damage but leave so much unrepaired?

reply to post by Arbitrageur




no, i'm not joking about the nuns.

December 4, 1532: Fire breaks out in the Sainte Chapelle, Chambéry, seriously damaging all its furnishings and fittings. Because the Shroud is protected by four locks, Canon Philibert Lambert and two Franciscans summon the help of a blacksmith to prise open the grille. By the time they succeed, Marguerite of Austria's Shroud casket/reliquary as made to her orders by Lievin van Latham has become melted beyond repair by the heat. But the Shroud folded inside is preserved bar being scorched and holed by a drop of molten silver that fell on one corner.

April 16, 1534: Chambéry's Poor Clare nuns repair the Shroud, sewing it onto a backing cloth (the Holland cloth), and sewing patches over the unsightliest of the damage. These repairs are completed on 2 May. Covered in cloth of gold, the Shroud is returned to the Savoys' castle in Chambéry.

source

there were two more close calls with fire, in more recent times:

October 1, 1972: Attempt to set fire to the Shroud on the part of an unknown individual who breaks into the Royal Chapel after climbing over the Palace roof. The Shroud survives due to its asbestos protection within the altar shrine.

April 11 & 12, 1997: Shortly after 11 p.m. fire breaks out in Turin's Guarini Chapel, quickly threatening the Shroud's bulletproof display case. Fireman Mario Trematore uses a sledgehammer to break open this case and the Shroud, in its traditional casket, is taken temporarily to Cardinal Saldarini's residence. Signs of arson are found in the Royal Chapel, the walls of which are very badly damaged. Also damaged are the whole High Altar end of the cathedral and the part of the Royal Palace directly adjoining the Chapel.

April 14, 1997: In the presence of the Cardinal and several invited specialists, including Mme. Flury-Lemberg, Professor Baima-Bollone and Dr. Rosalia Piazza of Rome's Istituto Centrale del Restauro, the Shroud is brought out from its casket and its condition carefully examined. It is found to be completely unaffected by the fire. It is taken to an undisclosed place of safety.

(from the same source as the first quote)

Here is an intresting video on the Shroud of Turin. It makes you wonder at the very least. The second video is by Kent Mattox






www.youtube.com... Channel

The strongest VUV light source to date is several thousand billion. To reproduce
the image of the Shroud would take 34 thousand billion! So say the scientists
in a new report, after five years of study.

The Shroud is from God, truly, the shroud covered God, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

catholicforum.fisheaters.com...

reply to post by Rising Against


I find it rather interesting that the image of the face is similar to the medeval depictions of Christ as a nordic, or Celtic figure, rather than a palestian, which we have been led to beleive he was! This seems to me to be like the whole lake Gennaseret Boat deal. Speculaton upon belief, based upon speculaton and hearsay thrown in with some fancy slight of hand science to give an air of "fact" about the whole issue! I could be wrong, but that is just my feeling on the issue!