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Would the soldiers side with the citizens or the federal government.

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posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 05:15 AM
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O/k here are a few hypotheticals.

Suppose you are in the military, and ordered to patrol the local gas stations and supermarkets to prevent looting and armed robbery in a time of very severe food and fuel rationing.
Some ass hole throws a fire bomb into your vehicle, and puts bullet holes through the windshield, would you return fire upon a fellow American ?

Members of your unit are being sniped from a building. Five of your buddies have been hit. You storm the building, and in a careful room to room weapons search you discover several assault rifles and hand guns. Would you confiscate them ?

Trust me, when the US general public start firing upon the US military, they will not only confiscate any weapons, they will shoot to kill.

When TSHTF Americans and the military are going to be killing each other in large numbers, and if you believe the military will be perfectly willing to die without returning fire you must have rocks in your head.




posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 06:38 AM
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I would give him a copy of the US Constitution. Tell him if he wants to join the police that this is the law he is joining to enforce. If he won't consent to enforcing the Constitution (which he swore an oath to defend when he joined the armed forces) then he is a traitor.

He will always be your brother even if he is one.

Several years ago I dropped the bomb on my parents about what really happened on 9/11 and how our elections had been stolen since 2000. They reacted the same as your brother and sis-in-law did. I was some years before they realized I was right and things are better than ever between us.
The truth is worth it. Years of programming won't disappear in a single night but if no one points them in the direction of the truth they may never find it.
You did the right thing, it will take time to see if the seeds you planted bear fruit. If not don't worry - you did what you could. That's all anyone could ask.

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Asktheanimals]



posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 11:09 AM
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The troops didn't support drowning Americans in Katrina aftermath,
The troops didn't work to clean up the BP oil slick,
The troops don't guard our invaded southern border,

The troops are too busy creating terrorists in never ending wars in Iraq & Afghanistan so their corporate masters can loot the US treasury.

Why would the troops start defending Americans when they have been celebrated for betraying them for so long?

Use your head silly,

the Troops will kill American citizens in a flash,
The same idiots who mindlessly cheered them on with 'support the troops'

If the troops don't support American, they are not patriotic & anyone who supports them is un-patriotic.

The only time it is patriotic to support the troops is when they are supporting American, which they haven't in a long time if ever.

Patriotism is supporting America, this country, this place, these people.

Anything else is NOT patriotic.



posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by NoRegretsEver
 


It is true that they will break you down and rebuild you. My bro was a marine and they tried to break him down, but they failed into doing so. It takes a strong will to resist their techniques. But he also states they have gone wussified in their punishments. They use something like a card system now. Yellow for warning and a red for your in trouble or something like that.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by madmangunradio
I'm not sure If I am putting this in the right forum.

Sigh.. My brother is visiting my parents house he's in the army. We where around a big bon fire and talking. I asked him what he was going to do when he left the army and he told me he wanted to go into the police force. I'm ok with that and I asked him a hypothetical... What would you do if told to round up weapons. He told me strait to my face he had no problem with it. I almost dropped my damn beer!!!!!! I told him about the second amendment and asked him again and he told me he'd do whatever it takes to take care of his family. He turned it around on me and said you dont have a family so you wouldnt understand.

I'm still trying to re-align my jaw after it slammed into the floor.

I'm asking advice here. How do I argue this with my brother?

Edit: fixing a typo

[edit on 7/18/2010 by madmangunradio]


As a current US Soldier, I can say that there are a LOT of us who feel that if the constitution was directly violated - our contracts to the government would be irretrievably broken. Most of us would go back to our home states and do whatever, but I can guarantee you they will not be using the active federal military to round up weapons. LOL

No one would follow such an idiotic order in the first place, secondly - I don't know about where you're from but in part of Texas, people are currently stockpiling and I'm not going to be the dumb bastard that goes to someone's house out in the woods and tries to take their guns.

You ain't gonna get me like that.



I'm on the side of the people. If it weren't for you guys, I wouldn't have a job.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 04:27 AM
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Anyhow, we shall soon see.

When law and order in America completely breaks down, and the looting and arson starts, and the military are being shot dead in American suburbs.

How long will it take before they get really mad and start using deadly force in reply. Not very long I am thinking.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by Silver Shadow
Anyhow, we shall soon see.

When law and order in America completely breaks down, and the looting and arson starts, and the military are being shot dead in American suburbs.

How long will it take before they get really mad and start using deadly force in reply. Not very long I am thinking.


Assuming that actually started happen, the offenders' death would be immediate, not a matter of time before getting "fed up."

Threaten my life and I have bigger toys to play with - that's called Darwinism.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by slank
The troops didn't support drowning Americans in Katrina aftermath,
The troops didn't work to clean up the BP oil slick,
The troops don't guard our invaded southern border,

The troops are too busy creating terrorists in never ending wars in Iraq & Afghanistan so their corporate masters can loot the US treasury.

Why would the troops start defending Americans when they have been celebrated for betraying them for so long?

Use your head silly,

the Troops will kill American citizens in a flash,
The same idiots who mindlessly cheered them on with 'support the troops'

If the troops don't support American, they are not patriotic & anyone who supports them is un-patriotic.

The only time it is patriotic to support the troops is when they are supporting American, which they haven't in a long time if ever.

Patriotism is supporting America, this country, this place, these people.

Anything else is NOT patriotic.


Somebody really star'd this post? You speak like the troops are in control of their own destiny. They will do exactly like you will when hyperinflation then deflation occurs and there is not enough government to hold law. the select few "forces" will be pulled back to protect big government or corporation, the average joe in the millitary will be left fending for themselves.

If TSHTF how the hell are these troops going to stay loyal to a system that can not provide for their families? They wont and they will become like the rest, survivalist.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 08:14 AM
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thats the thing about civil war. there is nothing civil about war.

it has a tendency to place brother against brother.

[edit on 19/7/2010 by gravykraken]

[edit on 19/7/2010 by gravykraken]



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by Eavel

Originally posted by slank
The troops didn't support drowning Americans in Katrina aftermath,
The troops didn't work to clean up the BP oil slick,
The troops don't guard our invaded southern border,

The troops are too busy creating terrorists in never ending wars in Iraq & Afghanistan so their corporate masters can loot the US treasury.

Why would the troops start defending Americans when they have been celebrated for betraying them for so long?

Use your head silly,

the Troops will kill American citizens in a flash,
The same idiots who mindlessly cheered them on with 'support the troops'

If the troops don't support American, they are not patriotic & anyone who supports them is un-patriotic.

The only time it is patriotic to support the troops is when they are supporting American, which they haven't in a long time if ever.

Patriotism is supporting America, this country, this place, these people.

Anything else is NOT patriotic.


Somebody really star'd this post? You speak like the troops are in control of their own destiny. They will do exactly like you will when hyperinflation then deflation occurs and there is not enough government to hold law. the select few "forces" will be pulled back to protect big government or corporation, the average joe in the millitary will be left fending for themselves.

If TSHTF how the hell are these troops going to stay loyal to a system that can not provide for their families? They wont and they will become like the rest, survivalist.



Wow - what a bunch of garbage. That reeks of the immaturity of the American populace during the Vietnam war. "Blame the troops." he says - does he even comprehend the way the chain of command and our government works or is he one of the people who just open their mouth and let whatever crap they're thinking at the time spill out or what?

Star for you, Eavel.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by madmangunradio
aka screw the constitution as long as my family is taken care of.

Thats his mindset. I've failed. Asking for advice?

Edit to add a ?

[edit on 7/18/2010 by madmangunradio]


Is that so shocking? It has to be a biological imperative to protect your genes. How often do mothers in the animal kingdom face overwhelming odds to protect their offspring when it would make more logical sense to abandon them so you can live and have more children.

Besides, if it comes down to saving our families or obeying the constitution then the constitution is failing and needs to be amended.

The second amendment doesn't mean that much to most people. You might want to ask him what he'd do if he was ordered to kill his own family. I imagine you'd get the response you want.



posted on Jul, 25 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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"Would the soldiers side with the citizens or the federal government."



a soldier would not ask the question. and if a soldier asked such a question, no soldier would end it with a question mark.

a soldier would find what the citizens and government agreed upon.

a soldier would disobey any and all orders that are contrary to what the citizens and the governments need, want, and can agree upon.

a soldier would not hesitate to exhaust any and all possibilities percieved as neccesary to ensure that all things the citizens and governments are capable of agreeing upon exists and continue to exists.

a soldier does not need a capitol.

a soldier treats where they are as the capitol of the planet.

a soldier re-enforces actions and behaviors that influence intentions that lead to "others" also treating a soldier's home town as though it is the capitol of the planet while "others" are in their home town.

a soldier treats "others'" home towns as though they are the capitol of the planet while they are in "others'" home towns.

a soldier knows a soldier may or may not be correct, depending upon the actions, behaviors, intentions, priorities, and periceived neccesities of "others".

should a soldier have to pick between government and it's citizens, someone amongst the "others" may or may not suffer consequences, depending upon their actions, behaviors, intentions, priorities, and percieved neccesities.

but, who am i and what do i know.

maybe my intepretation of soldier and "others'" interpretations of "soldier" means something different to "others".

what do i know about being a soldier?

-et



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 09:33 PM
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reply to post by madmangunradio
 


It would depend on what was going on, and even then I would need more information. We have history to use as our guide in this area, and unfortunately we are to quick to dismiss, resulting in repeat.

Our country is based on the rule of law. It does not matter who is breaking the law, from my neighbor, to the President of the US, no one is above it.

If an order came down to round people up with absolutely no basis in law, either at the Federal, State or Local level, the order is illegal and unconstiutional. Enforcing that type of order as a Law Enforcement Officer not only breaks State and Federal Law, it flies in the face of the purpose of Law Enforcement, as well as the Military, including the Government, whose authority and existance is dervied from the people.

The moment the people are removed from that equation, the Government, Law Enforcement and the Military no longer have any legal standing in the US. The Military, Law Enforcement take oaths to protct and defend the Constitution against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. This is why the Military takes an allegiance to the Constitution, and not a person or office.

Any person who would comply with that order on the basis of self preservation, or the illusion it gives of safety and security from a perceived threat with no basis or supporting evidence, in my opinion are ignorant self centered cowards who have no understanding of what this country was based on, and what our Constitution and Bill of Rights actually mean.

Dont get me wrong, we have to have a rule of law. However when the rule over rules the laws in place, its no longer serving the people as a whole, but a select few and therefore loses its legitimacey because it removed the source of authorty - The People.

"All people are equal, but some are more equal than other" - Animal Farm
(Good book for anyone who has not read it)

In the described scenario, and order to round people up would be illegal at both the Federal and State level, violating Constitutional Rights, State Law and common sense.

Not only would I refuse the order, I would perceive any attempt to round people up in the manner described as a law violation, and would take action to prevent it. If my department see's it differently, then they would no longer have any credibility or authority, or me in their ranks for that matter.

You would find me with the resitance as I would rather go down fighting for something I believe in (ethically and morally), rather than face the guaranteed existance of being a mindless automatan scared to live because we are all on double secret probation from a dictatorial regime.

"My Creed" - Dean Alfange

I do not choose to be a common man. It is my right to be uncommon. I
seek to develop whatever talents God gave me—not security.

I do not wish to be a kept citizen, humbled and dulled by having the state look after me.
I want to take the calculated risk; to dream and to build, to fail and to succeed.

I refuse to barter incentive for a dole.

I prefer the challenges of life to the guaranteed existence; the thrill of fulfillment to the stale calm of utopia.

I will not trade freedom for beneficence nor my dignity for a handout.

I will never cower before any earthly master nor bend to any threat.

It is my heritage to stand erect, proud and unafraid; to think and act myself, enjoy the benefit of my creations and to face the world boldly and say – ‘This, with God’s help, I have done.’ All this is what it means to be an American."



edit on 25-11-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-11-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by Esoteric Teacher
 


thats a very slippery slope that you are on.

can you name ONE solider in the last 10 years that refused an order to anyone that our gov't determined was an enemy??

if so, i'll bet you he was labeled a traitor, or court marshaled for disobaying an order.

and, you better believe the gov't will convince those soliders that we are now the enemy.



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


you make an excellent argument, and i could not agree with your principles more, but i believe you might be missing the fact that TPTB would make it legal, it would be an lawful order as far as they are concerned.

you are basing your response on believing that TPTB would just violate the constitution, and be very brazen about it.


i truly enjoyed your post. Star for you.



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by madmangunradio
 


We don't have a culture of American freedom's ideals and honor anymore. We have been systematically culturally cleansed. We are all to be humanists now. Materialism is the only vaule. That is why your brother only sees his income as important and all that other stuff like laying down your own gain for an honorable ideal is foreign to him. Tht is the culture of our military, our universities, our public schools, professionals, and our government.

The military would not hesitate to do whatever dear reader told them to do. The police would do whatever dear reader told Homeland Security to do. Look at the strip searches and sexual molestation at TSA. People sold and bought the naked scanners for material gain and those who carry it out do so for material gain. They do not care - they have no empathy with other people and no higher ideal than material gain. Cultural cleansing is not a pretty thing.



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 10:37 PM
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reply to post by ParkerCramer
 


Removing the people from the equation, either forcefully and directly, or through the use of Laws, is one in the same. A Law that makes the people the enemy, regardless of how it was passed, would never be legal because its created absence the authority and consent of the people.

Also, any law passed that violates the Constitution is in fact illegal. Passing a Law that would bar the people from any type of redress, would also be illegal and unconstitutional. If we ever made it to a point where orders were being given to round people up, then we are in real trouble from top to bottom.

So in order for laws to be passed making it legal to round people up for whatever reason, the Constitution would already be a thing of the past, the Courts would be nothing more than show trials, and we would have military units instead of Law Enforcement on the streets, using drumheads to dole out punishment.

You think there is anger and resentment now towards our Government...

Any attempt for the Government to go down this road would be met with resitance from all levels. I would wager that any attempt in this country to remove the people as the sole souce of legitimacy and authority of the Government, and then go after the people as enemies of the State, would result in an armed insurrection that would make all previous wars combined look like cold and flu season.



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 10:48 PM
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I have two words for you to look into. . . . Tienanmin Square. It's in Bejing China. The big student protest a few years ago. The Chinese people believed that the so called "People's Army" of the Chinese People's Republic would never turn their weapons on the people.

But the brass brought in units from districts far away from Bejing and they ran over the students with tanks.



America no longer has a citizen army raised through conscription (the draft).

American soldiers are employees, whether they admit it to themselves or not. They may say that they will not turn their weapons on their fellow citizens, but my money says they will, if handled adroitly by the brass, as the Chinese soldiers were.

I used to think America was different from other half-butted countries. It ain't. 9/11 taught me that.



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 10:57 PM
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reply to post by ipsedixit
 


While an intresting post and thought process, please use correct facts when presenting your argument. The tank did not run over the man in Tienaman Square, and as a matter of fact no tanks ran over any of the protesters there.

And simply bolding People so it resonates with American thoughts about the People is a cheap scare tactic with no basis other than to those who want to skew facts. North Korea is also refered to as the DPRK - Democratics Peoples Republic of North Korea. We have sen the borshures for both, and know the invocation of theose terms in those countries is an attempt to lend credence to their Governments on an International scale.

America does have a Citizen Army, as its all still based on volunteers and not forced conscription. Using the military in this mnner her ein this country would be met with resistance. The resitance, in addition to the citizens, would be coming from Law Enforcement, as well as the militaries of the various states - National Guard Units.

The thought that all parts of our military from top to bottom would take part in this type of scenarion frankly assumes our military personell are mindless and cannot think for themselves.
edit on 25-11-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-11-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 

Look at the film. Yes the man in the photo was not run over but many other students were. I'm assuming that you just don't know the details of what happened there.

factsanddetails.com...


Victims were shot, run over with tanks, clubbed to death, caught in crossfire. Fang Zheng, a student at Tiananmen Square who is now China's disabled discus champion, had his legs crushed and later amputated after a Chinese army tank ran him down and dragged him for 30 feet.



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