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Photon question

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posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 05:03 AM
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Such is the Wave-Particle duality paradox!
Light is both a wave and a particle..




posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 05:07 AM
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lol even more interesting! Quantum Physics/Mechanics whatever u wanna call it. IT leaves the emmitter as a particle travels THROUGH the experiment as a wave and arrives at the end as a particle!

strange.. BUT TRUE!


www.thekeyboard.org.uk...

Try that.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 05:10 AM
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Physics rules!
If you want a true paradox, look up Schroedinger's Cat



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 05:38 AM
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Yeah, the wave/particle duality thing is completely mind-bending.
However, I do find the term 'particle' as being somewhat abstract when used to describe a photon of light. If you define a particle as having mass, and if, as Amantine pointed out, light cannot have mass, then if this is the only way we assertain light as being a particle, surely we could eliminate the whole particle thing as an abstraction in the paradox....unless of course there's something else that qualifies light as being a particle?



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 07:04 AM
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Well it's NOT a particle. Its a wave AND a particle, because it exibits particle like properties AND wave like properties so it is neither but both.

Refer to here for the Photoelectric Effect -particle behaviour (Double Slit Experiment link on page - wave behaviour)



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 07:31 AM
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Well, light, as a wave and a particle might be mind-bending, but scientists have theorized that light isn't the only thing that behaves that way. Since energy/matter is a continuum, much like space/time, even matter behaves with this odd wave/particle duality.

How's that for mind-bending?



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 07:48 AM
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Totally Ouizel, but I think these wave/particle paradoxes might be the result of the abstract ways - the best ways we have currently - in which we describe these things. In other words, I think light may neither be a wave nor a particle, but something we havent yet grasped that has properties of both.

That was a cool link to the explination of the photoelectric effect, cheers for that, very helpful.


[edit on 17-6-2004 by Paul]



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 07:59 AM
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Indeed, Paul. Our languages may well be inadequate to describe exactly what is happening in the universe. With Einstien's Space/Time continuum, and Energy/Matter continuum, he stated that Space and Time were just 2 facets of the same thing, and that Energy and Matter were also 2 facets of the same thing, which would explain why wave/particle duality is demonstrable with light, and I believe that matter has also been demonstrated to possess this same duality. I've seen theory after theory, and too many of them are obviously pure speculation, and can't be necessarily be discounted, but cannot be proven, either. Some have empirical data that seems to support them, but often, it's a poor fit. I guess that we'll just have to keep thinking, and experimenting, and questioning, and we'll eventually arrive at a satisfactory explanation.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 08:50 AM
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Very interesting topic here. Something that I have always wondered about is if light is a particle (photon), how can it have zero mass? Also, isn't light just an electromagnetic wave? If I can build an antenna, for radio communications, I can receive energy from transmissions. All radio transmissions travel at the speed of light. Can't those transmissions emit these photons which we cannot see and have duality just as light does?

Also concerning solar cells, which state of light (photon or wave) do these solar cells (which I believe operate just as an antenna) operate and provide voltaic potential?

Thanks,
TC



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 09:37 AM
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Actually, TC, the answer to your question about whether it is particulate light or waveform light powering photovoltaic cells is yes. Yes it does.

Light is both wave and particle, so light causes the excitation that provides electricity from photovoltaics.

I know this sounds strange, but since light is both, at the same time, then both are the answer. Perhaps it's particulate light interacting with the waveform matter, or waveform light interacting with particulate matter, or vice-versa.

What'cha think?




posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 09:46 AM
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It's kinda like schroedinger's cat being both dead and alive at the same time!
Bloody confusing, but that's the way it is!



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 10:20 AM
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The photons can reach us because 2 reasons. The first being that a photon is not always a particle it is at the same time a wave.

www.qmw.ac.uk...

Secondly, once set to motion in a vaccum an object will continue moving until acted upon by another object



Newton's first law

An object at rest will remain at rest and an object in motion will continue in motion with a constant velocity (in a straight line) unless it experiences a net external force.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by browha
It's kinda like schroedinger's cat being both dead and alive at the same time!
Bloody confusing, but that's the way it is!



Ahhh schroedinger's cat. It's been a while since I read "the cat tho walks through walls" by Robert Heinline but it is an excellent intro to quantum theory, and you would never know it by reading the book. I just sneaks the theories into the story line. But I would suggest reading "the moon is a harsh mistress" first because it gives all the background. Nice to know someone else in here knows about the cat theory, I was thinking about it when I started this post. But the part of the initial question that hasn't been answered is how does a photon or photon particle cluster retain it's energy through it's multimillion year journey.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 11:00 AM
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If you're wondering what cats have to do with quantum physics - here are a couple of articles about Schroedinger's cat - 1 and 2 both from the new scientist website



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by J0HNSmith
But the part of the initial question that hasn't been answered is how does a photon or photon particle cluster retain it's energy through it's multimillion year journey.


A photon, (or light wave, depending on how ya look at it) doesn't emit energy, it is energy. It's like saying "How does a water wave stay wet throughout it's trip across the lake?"

At least, that's the way I understand it.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 03:25 PM
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Quick respose here i gotta go..

A photon doent use energy, and doesnt emit or transform itsself into any other form of energies, remember it only takes energy to ACCELERATE THINGS(or change direction/slow things down), BUT since it doesnt have mass it requires ZERO energy, so it doesnt really need to use energy on its travel, so it retains in?

[edit on 17-6-2004 by quiksilver]



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by quiksilver
Quick respose here i gotta go..

A photon doent use energy, and doesnt emit or transform itsself into any other form of energies


When a photon hits "for the sake of a simple example" a black cloth the photon will be absorbed into the cloth and it will turn into heat. Wouldn't' that be transforming itself into another form of energy?



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by J0HNSmith
When a photon hits "for the sake of a simple example" a black cloth the photon will be absorbed into the cloth and it will turn into heat. Wouldn't' that be transforming itself into another form of energy?


Wow, great question. I want to say yes, that the phtono is turned into atmoic kinetic energy...but I'm not certain. I'll look into it.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 03:47 PM
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A photon is energy. Therefore, it cannot lose itself. When a black cloth absorbs energy, the energy is dissapated in the form of heat, which is lost to the atmosphere. (That is to say, it is re-transformed into molecular vibration, from whence it came.)

It really is similar to water. Water has waves. Light can be seen as waves. Water has molecules. Light has photons. You can see either waves, or particles, but not both at the same time. (In order to see water molecules, you must use a microscope, so you won't be able to see the bigger picture where you can see the waves, and vice versa.) Water is wetness, the same way that light is energy. The wave retains it's wetness because it is wetness. The water molecule retains wetness because it is wetness. Likewise, the photon, and waveform light don't lose energy precisely because they are energy.



posted on Jun, 17 2004 @ 04:05 PM
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Ok you will have to follow me on this one. What if a photon really does have mass. What problems would this solve? The first is why it would take infinite (or atleast near infinite) energy to reach the speed of light(SOL).

We also have to remeber not to long ago many believed that you could not go faster then the speed of sound. People also never had any idea of Wind resistance. Why? Simple the insanely slow speed reached by the average person at that time air resistance was not an issue. Air resistance starts really coming into play around 60mph. And it doesn't become a major factor against acceleration till about 120mph. What if there is Light resistance?

if we have lots of particals all moving at the speed of light in various different directions when we begin to move through it only those that are directly against us would work against us. Those going the same way work for us etc. Think of water and water current. Water current speed helps you untill you go faster then it. But unlike water current photons are always go every which direction all the time.

So in this example as the object goes faster and faster it now begins to have more and more photons work against it. This is just simple vector forces. The faster it moves the more force being acted against it. Since there are so many photons and even if each one had only the minimal of mass this would add up and give similiar results as seen in the whole relativity idea.

And remeber that the only reason we (human beings) think that light has no mass is because it enables the formulas to work out. It can never truely be seen of measured. Two photons passing each other would make one photon seem as if it was going 2xSOL in accordance to the photons position.

So so I have anytakers on this carzy idea.

And light=photons our sences in our brain translate photon radiation as light.




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