To all the UFO and aliens debunkers

To the skeptics of ATS, I do have a question for you:

Have you ever looked up, in a cloudless night?

You do believe the Universe exists and yet, it is something beyond comprehension. Us humans cannot wrap our heads the concept of Universe and Time. How can it be infinite, what was before and what is after?

So yeah for you the Universe exists, even though you've never been to space.

Yet you can't fathom the idea of intelligent beings visiting us. We are intelligent, we like to explore, is this really out of reach to believe we are being visited?

And by logic, if the Universe is infinite, by definition there are an infinite numbers of planets supporting life and an infinite number of advanced civilizations.

I understand some may see videos and photos as inconclusive, but only by the sheer amount of photos, videos and witness accounts throughout the ages, there has to be one genuine account, don't you think? There are so many stories defying a politically correct explanation, just do some research!

I also see too many people, here on ATS, relentlessly trying to debunk sightings and stories. Sure, I like to keep an open mind but it is clear that those folks, you never hear them saying things like:
'wow that is some unexplainable sighting, it could well be a non human controlled flying craft'
They participate in UFO threads only to force their skewed beliefs upon us.

Those can't be helped.

reply to post by TheOracle


Debunking UFO's doesn't mean you don't believe. Sometimes I watch a video and think "This isn't real" Even though I'd like it too be, Because I'm a firm beliver in extraterrestials.

I agree with you though, that the chances of there being intelligent life out there are unfothamble. And I think, secretly, debunker or not, you wish there was life out there

I don't "relentlessly debunk" stuff, 99.999999% of the utter tripe folks here push is bunk to begin with and debunks itself if you apply even a moderate amount of common sense, reason and logic to it.

Folks like me push consistently try and show the light to the very crowd of people that make this subject laughable. Call me a debunker all you want, but if you guys let us "debunkers" and "skeptics" run this subject the truth would be known by now, because there would be MAINSTREAM DEMAND. But, alas, the believer and new age nutjob crowd has been allowed to represent us to the public, thus this subject is a go nowhere joke to most people.

the skeptics serve a vital role here on ATS, and without their diligence, ATS would lose a bit of its credentials.

that being said, i am as well, NOT a fan of the fanatic debunker who will not allow even the slightest inkling that some of the mysteries posed by ATS members are beyond our ability to explain away with human science.


Mulder and Scully (x-files) worked so well as they both represented the polarities of our human inquisitiveness. the willingness to believe, and the desire for evidence.

so dubunkers and believers: let's make like Mulder and Scully and honor that deep forbidden attraction for the other... and their crazy truth-seeking zeal!

maybe then, we may find a greater insight into the Truth that is Out There.

reply to post by TheOracle


To the skeptics of ATS, I do have a question for you:

Have you ever looked up, in a cloudless night?

You do believe the Universe exists and yet, it is something beyond comprehension. Us humans cannot wrap our heads the concept of Universe and Time. How can it be infinite, what was before and what is after?

So yeah for you the Universe exists, even though you've never been to space.

Yet you can't fathom the idea of intelligent beings visiting us. We are intelligent, we like to explore, is this really out of reach to believe we are being visited?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh my! You are correct! I have never just looked up!
Yes, the whole reason we don't celebrate fraud and fakery, BELIEVE in the HOLY CHURCH of UFO's and aliens is we can't "wrap our minds around it"!!
We are closed minded.
We cannot fathom things.
The history of humanity has largley been a struggle between igorance and knowledge. Science and learning vs superstition.
Wrap your freakin mind around this! 99% of the UFO garbage you see are deliberate fakes and hoaxes. Why is that? Is that because I'm closed minded" or becauseyou and so many others are gullible? and perpetuate this superstitious nonsense?
After 60 years, 60 YEARS of "study" and "research", UFOlogy has not produced anything at all, except a cottage industry in fraud. It fall 's right in the catagory of pseudo science, like palm reading, crystal BS and all the othe dumb superstitious crap so fashionable in the MAINSTREAM ignorance that passes for alternative and is used mainly to seprrate believers from their cash.
But you BELIEVE what you WANT to conform reality to your comfort level/. Never mind everything around you was invented not from BELIEF , but from observation, science and logic.
Your post is very quaint, but means nothing.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by OldDragger]

I consider myself to be a skeptic and sometimes debunker, but that doesn't mean that I don't keep an open mind. If I actually come across convincing evidence one day, I may just be that much more inclined to believe. So far on ATS, most of the supposed evidence is easily explainable as not being of ET origin. I believe that I have only seen one video here on ATS, that doesn't seem to have a rational explanation and although I don't have an explanation for it, doesn't mean that there isn't one.

In sum, I am only skeptical because most of the "evidence" put forward, is little more than hoaxes, vivid imaginations and/or easily explainable optical illusions. Just because I don't automatically jump to wild and illogical conclusions doesn't mean that I am not open minded and will happily accept any real evidence, if it does some how surface one day. It just has not yet surfaced, from what I have seen, which makes me skeptical.

Another thing that makes me skeptical, is the fact that people post evidence that is obviously pictures or video of normal aircraft or easily explainable phenomenon, yet they swear that whatever pixel they have captured in a photo is the smoking gun. Should we not debunk if the evidence in question is easily debunkable?

It's not that I think ET existence in our universe is impossible, rather it's that I have yet to see any convincing evidence of ET presence on Earth. A pixel caught in a photo, an obscure light in the sky, picture of a normal aircraft or easily explainable phenomenon, simply doesn't cut it for me. If there is a reasonable explanation other than ET for a photo/video/personal account, than I'm obviously going to go with the reasonable explanation.

I'm not saying that what others have seen or experienced isn't real, only that what I have seen so far has not been real. I do however remain skeptical about other people's experiences, only because of the way many people vigerously defend easily explainable phenomenon as ET. If they are so sure that "exibit-A" is ET, then it makes me question everything else they may consider to be ET. Before joining ATS, I was actually more on the "believer" side of the fence (as far as ET visitations on modern Earth) but after being here for several months, I am far more skeptical.

--airspoon




[edit on 17-7-2010 by airspoon]

Yes, I've looked up. I do it a lot. It's taught me a lot about how much there is to see. It's also taught me a lot about how we can't always trust our eyes.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I can "fathom" the idea of ET visitors. I haven't seen any consistent evidence to indicate that they are here.


[edit on 7/17/2010 by Phage]

reply to post by TheOracle


Skeptics and de-bunkers are people too no?

Originally posted by TheOracle
Yet you can't fathom the idea of intelligent beings visiting us.

Who says skeptics cannot "fathom" it? Every skeptic would live to find undeniable, incontrovertible evidence we are being visited by other intelligences.

Originally posted by TheOracle
We are intelligent, we like to explore, is this really out of reach to believe we are being visited?

Not at all; you are committing an appeal-to-probability fallacy. Just because it is possible does not mean it is happening.

Originally posted by TheOracle
And by logic, if the Universe is infinite, by definition there are an infinite numbers of planets supporting life and an infinite number of advanced civilizations.

At the risk of being pedantic, the universe is not infinite.

Originally posted by TheOracle
I understand some may see videos and photos as inconclusive, but only by the sheer amount of photos, videos and witness accounts throughout the ages, there has to be one genuine account, don't you think?

Again, an appeal-to-probability fallacy. There doesn't have to be even a single genuine account.

Originally posted by TheOracle
I also see too many people, here on ATS, relentlessly trying to debunk sightings and stories.

What is wrong with that? Every claim must be subject to rigorous scrutiny.

Originally posted by TheOracle
'wow that is some unexplainable sighting, it could well be a non human controlled flying craft'

Because, at most, logic demands we can only say something is unexplained. We have no reference for what an alien craft is. Until we have a working, testable definition of what an "alien craft" is or behaves like, we cannot say an unexplained object is possibly an alien craft.

Originally posted by TheOracle
They participate in UFO threads only to force their skewed beliefs upon us.

Even if that were true, does it make them wrong? Or are you just trying to label people so you may dismiss them?

[edit on 17-7-2010 by DoomsdayRex]

reply to post by TheOracle


I am 51 years old and have watched the sky's my whole life. I have seen things that I can not explain and yes, I call them UFO's because I can not explain them.
I remember watching Neal Armstrong walk on the moon on TV. I remember when the first Star Trek first aired on TV. I have watched as NASA explored the moon and then wasted almost 40 years of the tax payers money. I wait in anticipation that before I die someone will find life outside of our planet.

I am the type of skeptic that many of you hate because I will not buy into the Alien religion. Are there UFO's, yes, certainly there are. Are they alien spacecraft, wit n other evidence than a few unexplainable fuzzy photographs, I say no. Do I wish that we could find evidence that Aliens are visiting us, Absolutely. The only thing about UFO's and aliens that I except on faith is that I believe that life exists outside of earth.

You do believe the Universe exists and yet, it is something beyond comprehension. Us humans cannot wrap our heads the concept of Universe and Time. How can it be infinite, what was before and what is after?

So yeah for you the Universe exists, even though you've never been to space.

We know the universe exists because we can observe it. We see it when we look up and we can measure what it's made of.

The universe exists for us because we can scientifically proove it's there. This is not the case for alien visitations, there is no evidence that holds under carefull examination that shows that aliens have infact visited us ( which does not mean they aren't out there somewhere, they're just not here )

And by logic, if the Universe is infinite, by definition there are an infinite numbers of planets supporting life and an infinite number of advanced civilizations.

And there must also be an infinite amount of planets not supporting life and more importantly there can be an infinite length of space between their world and ours ( making it impossible for them to ever visit us - or vice versa )

And the size of the universe doesn't really matter. Lets imagine for a second that there are many intelligent civilisations out there.

There had to be a first civilisation ( the first one that ever evolved ).
When that first civilisation look up at their night sky and saw all the stars they might've also thought " man the universe is pretty big place therefore there must be other lifeforms out there" when infact they were the first species ever - now what if WE are the first species ever to evolve, or atleast the first species ever to leave their homeworld?

I understand some may see videos and photos as inconclusive, but only by the sheer amount of photos, videos and witness accounts throughout the ages, there has to be one genuine account, don't you think?

Why? The amount of reports doesn't make them true. I believe many of the reports are infact genuine. Genuine in the sense that the witnesses really DID see glowing lights in the sky and photographed and videotaped REAL glowing lights in the sky, but that's all they are, glowing lights.

How someone would connect glowing lights in the night sky and aliens is a mystery to me when there are so many much more simple explanations.

There are so many stories defying a politically correct explanation, just do some research!

Show me.

I also see too many people, here on ATS, relentlessly trying to debunk sightings and stories.

Wether you like it or not, the skeptics play a vital role on ATS. The skeptics act as a sort of peer review journal.

Similar to when scientific theories are peer reviewed, theories and claims on ATS are reviewed by skeptics and put to a hard test of scientific knowledge and logic.
Only when when some picture or video is found that leaves no room for any other theory than it beeing an alien craft, only then will we have definitve proof of an alien visitation - anything that comes before that is pure speculation.


cheers!

Originally posted by TheOracle


And by logic, if the Universe is infinite, by definition there are an infinite numbers of planets supporting life and an infinite number of advanced civilizations.

That's not the way it works. There are a lot of common miscponceptions about the concept of infinity, exactly what you just stated being a classic example.

even if there were an INFINITE number of infinate universes there is no rule of logic or mathematics that states there would have to be ANY other planets supporting life. Just because something CAN happen that does not mean it MUST, even given in infinate amount of space and time.
There could even be an infinate number of infinate universes all EXACTLY the same as our own.
But bear in mind that it has yet be established whether the universe is finite or infinite anyway.

Either way there is still a very, very high chance of life existing elsewhere in the universe.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by Arkady]

There are so many stories defying a politically correct explanation, just do some research!
------------------------------------------------------------------
I just LOVE the way the term "research " is tossed around on ATS!
What you seemingly cannot "wrap your head around" is that UFO's are alien spaceships IS the mainstream, politically correct explanation!
Has been for 50-60 years! Didn't you notice the hundreds of TV shows, movies, novels and huge pop culture of aliens =UFO's!
You NEVER noticed that? How the "alternative" has become the boring and mundane?
There is nothing new under the Sun.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by OldDragger]

reply to post by TheOracle


I am a believer. Yet I appreciate skeptics and debunkers. They lift a veil on many "oddities". It keeps me grounded. There is so much garbage out there ( especially on youtube ), hoaxes ( that are so well made nowadays ) and many observations that are, well, pure fantasy, I've seen people go nuts over seeing a plane in flight, or a planet...

I also believe that there are solid evidence out there. Rendlesham, JAL over Alaska, phoenix lights, just to name a few...I'm reading a book at the moment that talks about sightings in the 1800s, no pics, no evidence, just stories that made paper headlines or personal diaries that made light of day. Interesting!

Anyway, skeptics, debunkers, I don't judge them. Most of the stuff we see isn't what it seems to be. But occasionaly, one event comes along that makes you go YEAH !

It's the way it is. And it's fine by me.

"When you think about it, the really astonishing thing would be if they did not exist" - Jean Cocteau

~S.

Originally posted by TheOracle
Have you ever looked up, in a cloudless night?

Sure. Lots of times. I have a hot tub.

You do believe the Universe exists and yet, it is something beyond comprehension. Us humans cannot wrap our heads the concept of Universe and Time. How can it be infinite, what was before and what is after?

So yeah for you the Universe exists, even though you've never been to space.

This is somewhat nonsensical. Could I believe "The Universe" did NOT exist? I do not believe it is beyond comprehension, however, and I hardly think my having never been in space has anything at all to do with it.

Yet you can't fathom the idea of intelligent beings visiting us. We are intelligent, we like to explore, is this really out of reach to believe we are being visited?

Not true. I can certainly "fathom the idea" of intelligent beings visiting us. It is logically possible. That doesn't prove anything, though.

And by logic, if the Universe is infinite, by definition there are an infinite numbers of planets supporting life and an infinite number of advanced civilizations.

Who says the Universe is infinite? It may have a finite size, just very big. It may be effectively infinite as far as our lifespans and consciousness go, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a fixed size, even if ever changing.

I understand some may see videos and photos as inconclusive, but only by the sheer amount of photos, videos and witness accounts throughout the ages, there has to be one genuine account, don't you think? There are so many stories defying a politically correct explanation, just do some research!

No, there does not have to be a genuine account. There may be several, but it isn't required. I don't understand the 'politically correct' sentence at all.

I also see too many people, here on ATS, relentlessly trying to debunk sightings and stories.... 'wow that is some unexplainable sighting, it could well be a non human controlled flying craft' They participate in UFO threads only to force their skewed beliefs upon us.

Frankly, I'd be happy to come upon a good story that turns out to be plausible. Unfortunately we have been hoax after hoax after hoax. Such as:

George Adamski, Adrian, the Alien Auropsy Film, Andrew Basiago, Brian Bessent, Stephen Bessett, Truman Bethurum, Richard Boylan, Sylvia Browne, Dan Burisch, Camelot, The Caret Drones, Michael Cohen, Ed Dames, Peter Davenport, Carlos Diaz, Richard Doty, Daniel Fry, Peter Gersten, Robert Ghostwolf, James Gilliland, Steven Greer, Paola Harris, Mike Hawkins, Richard Hoagland, Michael Horn, Dan Iaria, David Icke, Lyn Kitei, Bill Knell, Kal K. Korff, Robert Lazar, Billy Meier, Sean David Morton, Jeff Peckman, Jonathan Reed, Stan Romanek, Michael Salla, Davis Sereda, Robert Stephens, Clifford Stone, Pamela Stonebrooke...and a whole lot more.

I can tell you a little bit about each one of these guys because I've done a little, you know, "research." Who would you like to know about? Truman Bethurum and his hot alien UFO captain Aura Rhanes? How about Billy Meier's trip back to see the dinosaurs? Or how about Jonathan Reed, who kept an alien in his refrigerator? Or Pamelas Stonebrooke, who had sex with reptilians? Do you recognize any of these people? Have you done some research on your own?

Unfortunately, this field is completely full of either the intentional hoaxers telling us stories for fun & profit, the credulous believers who will believe anything they are told, the pathological liars, and attention seeking psychopaths. It's not a pretty picture.

I believe there are some good researchers in the field trying to find the truth. And there may very well be some excellent cases out there: Roswell, Cash-Landrum, Kecksburg, Rendlesham Forest.

There are real debunkers in the field, people like Phil Klass, for example, who would not accept ANY UFO stories as credible. But please don't throw every skeptical inquiry in with the Klass-type debunker.

Looking up in the sky and experiencing the wonder of it all is an appeal to emotion, not logic. If you insist on trating the field that way, you are ripe for being taken advantage of. Be careful or be duped.

reply to post by TheOracle


Contrary to the impression many here may have about me, "debunking" of valid, truly hard-to-explain occurences isn't my bag.

It is only the patently obvious BUNK that does get tossed up, so many times, over and over...that is the very sort of thing that MUST be "debunked"...that's the meaning of the term, as I've always understood it.

It is damaging to the serious study and questioning and seeking, when the silly and inane is "believed" so stridently by a small, but sometimes very vocal, minority. THEY are the ones making most 'noise', and getting most attention...and attracting ridicule and derision to the topic.

Unfortunately, there exists a great deal of other "noise" floating about --- some of it is sincere, and just people making honest mistakes; others are intentional and malignant hoaxes. Somewhere in that amorphus mix also exist the truly delusional, who are likely beyond any hope of rational saving. The lines get blurred constantly....


In my career I've spend literally thousands of hours looking out, and up, into the night sky. And daylight sky, too. Never been lucky enough to see anything unexplainable (although I had hoped).

There are a very small handful of valid, coherent reports from other pilots, all aspects of the profession, from military to civilian, who HAVE seen something that truly took them aback. THOSE are the stories to focus on, and study and learn from. NOT the ever-increasing crop of blurry, lens artifact-induced video camera images that have become so prevalent, in this age when just about every person on the planet now carries a video camera of some sort...

This is a pointless thread. You are writing about belief as if it was fact.

The fact is, we have no proof that stands up to scrutiny. My belief is that we have and are being visited and that there are humans in some kind of contact with life beyond Earth. This is my belief based upon circumstantial evidence and my gut feeling, it is not proof.

Debunkers are absolutely vital on a site like this. There's nothing wrong with espousing your beliefs on here. But when you make statements of those beliefs on such a board as ATS you implicitly invite opinions to the contrary. If you fail to address issues raised in opposition to your own then you will be deservedly debunked.

Jeez why do so many people completely ignore the motto of this site.

Also why do so many people that have never witnessed the release of chinese lanterns in person get so upset when UFOs are debunked as lanterns by those that have seen so many over the years. I want proof of aliens as much as the next person, but I want the truth regardless of whether that means the hundredth or millionth UFO is shown to be lanterns.

I don't really have anything to add to this thread that hasn't been said, but I felt that this thread needed to be flagged. At this point this thread is a good example of the healthy skepticism that needs to be the norm on ATS and not the exception.

There are many many threads on this very topic. The same things are rehashed every single thread.

Pl ease add your thoughts to one of the many existing discussions.


Closed.


[edit on July 17th 2010 by greeneyedleo]