Why do people not understand?

Political parties represent THE problem with America. Of course, we could dive deep into the rabbit hole and tie in how the people in charge of the CIA had a coup that played out over a number of years, culminating with the seizure of the White House with the October Surprise.

But that is not the point of my OP (although I will discuss it later in the thread, when i have my thoughts composed on a presentation of it). My OP deals with how our representative democracy is a lie, and how we can get it back on track.

The political party represents the core issue in this. They are completely purposeless. For that matter, in a true representative democracy (Of The People, by The People, and for The People) any political alliance is unnecessary and pointless.

Our elected officials exist to impose the will of The People. But this does not happen. Currently, we elect people based on their stated ideals. Often, this is simply a party platform. Then we trust them to just do whatever they want. Most people don't even know how their representatives vote on laws, or what laws they write.

This is a travesty. It is utterly unAmerican. These people should not be allowing corporations to write laws. Lobbyists have no purpose and should not be allowed to push our elected officials away from the desires of the people.

The way it should work is simple:

- The People begin to express concern over an issue, which their representative then addresses
- If enough representatives believe there is a problem based on constituent feedback, then they bring that to Washington and craft a law
- The law is shared with The People, and concerns are vetted
- The law is amended to reflect The People's desire, and put to a vote
- The legislator votes the conscience of their constituents.


In the case where The People are not informed, it should be up to the legislator to then campaign for whatever it is they are wanting. Sell their constituents on the idea. Get their support so that you can then follow the above guideline.

This is not rocket science. Why do people not see this? I know you ATSers, or a lot of you anyway, understand this. But what about everyone else?

I manage people for a living. In my shop, i am a very friendly and laid back manager. I am permissive almost to a fault. But i have limits. One is "clique's" or alliances. There is no need for such. You are there to do a job, and that job does not involve your need to form an alliance with someone. If you are doing that, it means you are fighting with other employees, and not doing your job.

The People have employees, too. In Washington. And they have formed alliances. It distracts from their job, as so much time and effort is spent on spinning actions to meeting party lines.

I believe that the real problem is the manner in which our elected officials are influenced by corporate lobbyist. The lobbying of congressional members by anyone other than individual private citizens, by it's very nature, corrupts the whole idea of a government that is Of, By and For it's People.

Regardless of what the supreme court has ruled, Corporations are not people!

Last I checked, people were born of a live birth whereas corporations are created through a legal process with the sole purpose of providing profits to it's shareholders. It is a violation of fiduciary responsibility for a corporate official to make decisions which would do anything other than enhance their ability to generate profit.

Take corporate money out of congress and I am confident we will see the return of a government which is indeed, Of, By and For it's People.

- The People begin to express concern over an issue, which their representative then addresses
- If enough representatives believe there is a problem based on constituent feedback, then they bring that to Washington and craft multiple laws
- The laws are shared with The People, and concerns are vetted.
- The laws are amended to reflect The People's desire.
- A random selection of one fifth of the population is selected for voting. It is there duty to vote, but they are not required.
- Results are tallied, and the new law is placed.

This system could be done at the country wide or state wide level.

The representatives would have advisers who come up with laws and bill to pass. There can be no more than 5 laws that would be brought to a vote.

This is my ideal system. It still needs some work though.

You're right. It should be simple. It was intended to be simple. The problem is many faceted, and you guyes have hit on a lot of the facets.

Having no set term limits fosters a bed of corruption...more time to sink the claws in...lobbyist claws and other claws. The jobs in Congress were never meant to be careers at all, never mind full-time ones. The whole idea was to refresh these seats regularly with common folk close to the issues.

Passing bills that are 3000 pages long that no one reads is a travesty and should itself be outlawed. Same goes for passing bills that lobbyists and think tanks write. And passing bills that hide other things. The entire bill process needs to be simplified and addressed.

The problem is also not so much the parties themselves but what some people have turned them into...what they've been allowed to become. Parties can be a good thing. Thing is, with a nation as diverse as ours, we probably should have 6 or 7 parties by now to represent all the views.

Whoever propagated the myth that a vote for a "third" party is a wasted vote did this country a great job but an even greater disservice. Many, many people still remember this myth today and vote accordingly.

On the flip side, parties might not even be necessary...their absence might force people to evaluate candidates by their merits and platforms rather than by a letter after their name.

We have virtually one party now anyway. The "parties" simply vary in a few economic and social issues designed to fool people, and not even they actually stay true to themselves.

The thing is, we need a radical quick change if we are ever hope to see a difference. Waiting for election cycles, is a waste of time...far too slow. As for the issues killing us, the problem is, who's going to pass bills that affect their very way of life and livelihood? A sitting Congress? I think not.

It should be easier to fire them. We're in a pretty big mess here. I keep asking people if there's a way out of it. No one sees an end to it.

Maybe pressure at the state level is a good place to start. More letting the legislators know what you think. More public votes on state issues that take back what isn't federal territory anyway. Some states already do this. More should.

I whole-heartedly agree. Lobbyist, special interest groups and corporations manipulate our representatives into creating and passing laws that benefit business'. We need to take the lobbyists out of the equation.

Better yet, I believe that term limits will create an atmosphere where only those who truly wish to serve the public good would be willing to serve for only a short period of time and then return home. Career politicians are easily swayed by money and power when the see no end in site to their terms.

I also think that it should be much easier to remove and replace a sitting politician. If constituents have a problem with a current employee, we uproot them and replace.

If we could do all of these things I think the arrogance of the modern politician would be diminished as they only hold office for a short time.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I am a capitalist. But I beleive that corporations should be limited to producing and selling widgets. Not creating a system by which other widget manufacturers are supressed in order to promote it's prosperity. And certainly not entering into alliances with government to create a system by which both are parasitic and eliminate competition. In fact, government was to be a framework to uphold and enforce the constitution, not a full-time hyperactive law generating entity. And certainly not a club for wealth and alliances to partner with corporations and rig the system.
The system has escaped our control, and it is too late to salvage. Ultimately, we'll have to protect our rights from the government and corporate entities. And by that, I mean the old-fashioned way. The time is coming when they will come for our guns. Our last layer of protection. The government recently passed legislation that allows them to have access to every transaction we make. This was the purpose of the financial reform bill, and the media gave them cover. Most of you who don't work in the financial sector don't realize how tightly regulated it already is, which gives foreign banks and institutions an already insane advantaqe. The bill did not adress the very two entities that caused the problem. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac and Goldman Sachs. Fannie mae loaned money, at the urging of Barney Franks and Chris Dodd, to people who had no reasonable chance of paying the money back. In many cases, income wasn't even verified. Many, who's sole income was a small government ssi check were able to buy houses, the monthy payments exceeding their income. These quasi government run institutions, again conspiring with goldman hid the mortgages in securities, and pawned them off as credit default swaps, leaving folks like AIG and all banks but Goldman Sachs holding the bag when, as expected they defaulted in mass. This was planned and expected. The feds then forced banks to take tarp money, thereby having control of them. See how that works? The financial bill is the final peice of the puzzle.
So, ignore this at your own peril. There is more treachery in the pipeline. But the government has, I beleive, underestimated the resolve of the people, or at least a portion of them.
Be ready, be vigilant. They are coming for you.
How long before you get a phone call from a government bureaucrat asking why you spent so much money at the sporting goods store? Or question the checks you wrote to your son? Or try to tax you son for the money? Hmmm. Are you comfortable with that? Me neither.
It isn't funny when you wake up to find the government is breathing down everybody's neck every day. It means you are no longer free. Are you just going to take it? Well.........Are you?

Crips and Bloods
Hot and Cold
Black and White
Democrat and Republicans
Us and them
This and that

United we stand and Divided we fall. The political system has divided America.

The real problem in this country is that 99% of American's give their power away to a gang of knuckleheads that don't care about Americans.

There is one unified front that is controlling this planet and that is greed. Notice the lack of a two party system there?

Peace

EDIT: Cuz people rage on typos versus the message.



[edit on 17-7-2010 by zroth]

Originally posted by Flatfish
I believe that the real problem is the manner in which our elected officials are influenced by corporate lobbyist. The lobbying of congressional members by anyone other than individual private citizens, by it's very nature, corrupts the whole idea of a government that is Of, By and For it's People.

Regardless of what the supreme court has ruled, Corporations are not people!

Last I checked, people were born of a live birth whereas corporations are created through a legal process with the sole purpose of providing profits to it's shareholders. It is a violation of fiduciary responsibility for a corporate official to make decisions which would do anything other than enhance their ability to generate profit.

Take corporate money out of congress and I am confident we will see the return of a government which is indeed, Of, By and For it's People.

you are absolutely correct. Corporations are not people. And money is not equal to speech.

Thanks for posting.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
You're right. It should be simple. It was intended to be simple. The problem is many faceted, and you guyes have hit on a lot of the facets.

Having no set term limits fosters a bed of corruption...more time to sink the claws in...lobbyist claws and other claws. The jobs in Congress were never meant to be careers at all, never mind full-time ones. The whole idea was to refresh these seats regularly with common folk close to the issues.

You nailed it. Career politicians are not "of The People". It is a ruling class. And you can tell by the contempt with which The People are treated.

Passing bills that are 3000 pages long that no one reads is a travesty and should itself be outlawed. Same goes for passing bills that lobbyists and think tanks write. And passing bills that hide other things. The entire bill process needs to be simplified and addressed.

Another outstanding point. I call them "Filibuster Bills", because they get what they want by being so wordy that it overwhelms you.

The problem is also not so much the parties themselves but what some people have turned them into...what they've been allowed to become. Parties can be a good thing. Thing is, with a nation as diverse as ours, we probably should have 6 or 7 parties by now to represent all the views.

Whoever propagated the myth that a vote for a "third" party is a wasted vote did this country a great job but an even greater disservice. Many, many people still remember this myth today and vote accordingly.

On the flip side, parties might not even be necessary...their absence might force people to evaluate candidates by their merits and platforms rather than by a letter after their name.

We have virtually one party now anyway. The "parties" simply vary in a few economic and social issues designed to fool people, and not even they actually stay true to themselves.

There IS only one party, as it has become a "ruling class". They play us off of each other to remain in power. It is pathetic, as they encourage having their name slandered in order to fire up their own base. There is no honor in that. It is trading your dignity for political power.

I don't think a political party is necessary, nor could it be a good thing. The way it should work is:

The People -> representative

Not:

The People -> Party -> representative

Nothing should come between the will of the people and the representative. They are their to do OUR bidding. Political affiliation is only a distraction of loyalty. Any good that may come, comes at a cost. I do not believe that cost to be worth it, especially when it ends up in todays political mess.

The thing is, we need a radical quick change if we are ever hope to see a difference. Waiting for election cycles, is a waste of time...far too slow. As for the issues killing us, the problem is, who's going to pass bills that affect their very way of life and livelihood? A sitting Congress? I think not.

It should be easier to fire them. We're in a pretty big mess here. I keep asking people if there's a way out of it. No one sees an end to it.

Maybe pressure at the state level is a good place to start. More letting the legislators know what you think. More public votes on state issues that take back what isn't federal territory anyway. Some states already do this. More should.

I dunno. I agree that we need radical quick change. I just don't know how to do it. I mean, Obama has been shown to be selling positions government, and no one has even batted an eye. Everyone will say, "oh, that ain't right" and then go right back to watching TV.

And i would be that anyone who made any real headway in that regard would find themselves sleeping with the fishes.

Good post. Thanks for sharing.

This is why you need a dictator

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Our elected officials exist to impose the will of The People. But this does not happen. Currently, we elect people based on their stated ideals. Often, this is simply a party platform. Then we trust them to just do whatever they want. Most people don't even know how their representatives vote on laws, or what laws they write.

This reminds me of a thread I made.

www.abovetopsecret.com... Please do not revive.

The thread spoke of Congress and whether they should be delegates or trustees. Delegates meaning they vote based upon their constituents and trustees meant they vote according to what they feel is best for their area.

I think nowadays most politicians act as trustees. Furthermore, the party always comes before the voters.

One thing for sure, it does need fixing.

reply to post by jam321



They all act as trustees. The People allow this, too. I don't think anyone really thinks of it, but every time we elect a Democrat or Republican, it is a referendum of approval for the way the system is set up. It is a relinquishing of your liberty to the ruling class.

reply to post by zroth

Evangelical religious and non-evangelical religious
Religious and non-religious
Liberal and conservative
Zionist and non-Zionist
Gay and straight
Pro-life and pro-choice
Men and women
Childless people and parent people
Union an non-union
White collar and blue collar

The Divided States of America