Against God

Thanks to all the great minds that have posted to this thread so far.
It's been cool to see where this took each one of you.
For the record it took me at least two full double takes, to get this to sink in.
In other words I had to read it four times...............Slowly

[edit on 17-7-2010 by randyvs]

Now, I LOVE CS Lewis!

Unfortunately, this faulty logic has put him down a peg in my book.

"I don't like something"

That is evidence that a god exists! Because, I would like it if he didn't!

Please.

Here, let me point some stuff out:

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust.

Alright, we have ONE man's opinion on the WHOLE universe. Let's continue:

But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.

NO WAY!! That's all it takes?

Alright, a god must exist then! I mean I hate these types of threads, and they exist. So god must be real!

What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?

Your SMALL understanding of it C.

If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?

BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LIKE IT. Just because you don't like something, doesn't make a god real.

I don't like chocolate ice cream, actually I hate it. It makes me sick to the stomach, and so on. Does this mean god exists? After all:

"If the whole cone was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be eating the cone, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?"

(Remember, I am not allergic to the ice cream. I just don't like the taste.)

People will always find something they don't like. This doesn't mean there is a god, it means we are individuals and enjoy separate things.

Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own.

And THAT is ALL IT IS. A PRIVATE version of his morals. Which he decided to "push" because "He didn't like the world he lived in."

Thanks for ruining my world.

But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies.

Um no.

The world does NOT have to be unjust if there is no god. What kind of faulty logic is this crap. Oh wait, CS Lewis writes FICTION...must be another example of his penmanship.

Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense.

BS

One mans logic, is another mans folly. As will be evident by the responses to this posting. Since I have shown logic

If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

Look at that statement at the beginning:

"If the WHOLE UNIVERSE has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..."

What kind of horse @(!* is this??

The whole universe? I don't know of ANY human that can comprehend the size of the universe, well except for Mr. Lewis. And not only does he know the size, he knows how it all works.

CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION

Of course, if Mr. Lewis had been smart. He would have known that.

(Que challenges for me to "Re-write the bible stories" into a Post-War mini-series...)

I'll stick with my turkish delight, thank you.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. -Rom8.20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power-Rom1.20

reply to post by adigregorio

Alright, a god must exist then! I mean I hate these types of threads, and they exist. So god must be real!

So you believe, he was trying to prove God exists then.? All in one
quote?

[edit on 17-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.

I have wondered often when I had faith how my god (at the time) could let children suffer such unspeakable, cities be reduced to rubble by criminals and how over a great space of human time wars have been a constant in our human reality. I could never envisage that humanity could ever come to realise that war continues and never ends because war never actually fixes a problem. War might bring peace for a time but this peace is a poor mimic of real peace because peace wrought from war is only a time of renewal, regrouping before the game start anew with new minds and now hearts long since embittered by the crimes visited on the fathers and mothers of the past.

Crimes of past events that can bring a man to detonate himself for a perceived affront remain always in the mind and are as real as the event themselves that birthed the hate and thus embittered there is no cure for such things but an end to war and a new age ushered in. An age ushered in by you and me and the person beside you because long since have we put our faith in those others who were never about peace but about maintain that which is – I loathe traditions!

What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?

Perhaps you were comparing it to a better universe, a universe that exists within your mind’s eye and comes to life when you dream? Who can really say what a dream is because our reality is all so different from one person to the next and I think the only real thing we share together is time and consciousness.

The rest of it is extremely subjective and for this reason laws are taken subjectively to be something that is loved by one and hated by another. Thus crime (and punishment) will never end until we can step out of this reality bubble and realise that our perceptions have been long since skewed to the negative and narrow minded way of thinking about the world and our place within it. We are all children of advanced social engineering, look at the TV, look at the media and look at yourselves and what it is you admire in the now to see the beast in the corner.

If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?...

Because sometimes when you see the nature of the game and when you see others oblivious to it you feel alone and you feel in pain. When a person is alone and in pain they are not minded to react in ways that are non violent. It is said that violence is an act from someone who has lost control. An act of violence to defend from certain death is no different ball game than an act of devotion and there is no contradiction or pointless babble because if you really look at the picture you see that violence is not really anything. Violence is not a loss of control or a sign of a regressive mind because violence is just a natural act in response to a natural circumstance.

The nature of the game is to raise your consciousness and come to know that there is a better way that an act that has been practiced down the countless ages from the time when dragonflies were the size of bats and beyond their time too. An act of violence from a billion or more years ago that brought protein into complex mouthparts is practised even now, but the difference now in the human context is that we use sniper rifles, smart bombs and on a good day we use nuclear weapons to make our point, to bring us our rewards.

Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies.

What is justice? I see justice as something that depends on vengeance to make its living a thing that one will agree with but another will not and thus in irreconcilable disagreement there is a schism and from that will come a disassociation with a perceived system of justice because a system that relies on punishment under the pretence of re-education and rehabilitation is not going to help anyone and certainly not the people that so called justice is looking to serve.

Real justice will come when we think of a new set of terms that really do give us a true notion of justice that is fair to the victim, the criminal and the society they both are a part of. When we stop seeing justice in terms of justice that were laid down in the ancient past by men who themselves perceived justice in terms of punishment and vengeance so that ego may be satisfied and property reconstituted perhaps then we may have a chance of changing the way things are done in this damaged and corrupted society where ‘might makes right.’

Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense.

The whole idea that a man could prove or disprove the existence of a god that could have created everything we are, that which we live our lives on seems to be like a wasted opportunity to work out if you believe and if you do then why?

I have heard it said we have a god gene and we evolved to know god but I think this is wrong because I think that when a person distances themselves from nature they fill that void in their soul with churches and temples, mosques and their version of Holy Scripture.

I believe that god exists if you see him because in my own subjective opinion I believe god exists only as a pointless word as for me the concept of god is everything around us. The sunlight that warms us is god, the love we feel when we look into ‘her’ or ‘his’ eyes is god. When we fall in our life and we find that suddenly there is hope and the strength to get up dust down and carry on, there was god.

God cannot ever be found or proven from the pages of a book no matter how glittery and no matter how sweet the worlds and if one finds their god there then perhaps they should ask themselves why they would look for such a noble thing in a world of ancient words when the real beauty of their god is in the vast open spaces, the jungles they walk, the planets they walk upon, the stars they will one day visit or have visited in histories on humankind long since lost to our knowledge.

My god is the oneness of this reality as I see it and breath it and god does not love me any more than god loves a galaxy because god is the great formula that governs the universe and maintains the equilibrium that keeps the sky up there and seas down here.

Love your god and love yourself and then get over it, get over yourself and move on.

*Continued*

[edit on 17-7-2010 by SmokeJaguar67]

If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

Everything in my reality has meaning even if for example a meaning was to die at the moment of a birth. One comes and one goes just like that but in their coming they left a mark in time and in the minds of those that witnessed. From this comes flowers that grow that will prick and pierce the soul but will also in time will enrich the lives of those who knew that soul if even for a short time. After a passage of time the memories will bring a smile and in that smile will come the realisation that they were blessed to have known such a being tinged of course with the sadness that they would never know their character and their personage because they never grew to adult hood.

The meaning of love comes to those who have lost such a thing in such a way as one simple example. You can feel sad that a being lives in the now because you love them so much that you feel they are too good for this world... there lays love!

The universe has meaning in that a thing was born and it will die! The stars that come and go but in the now all feed the firmament because in living they feed just as much as they feed in their violent death.

Look for a meaning in your life and you will find that the jigsaw starts to come together because without meaning there is no real worthy thought outside instinct, no consciousness of self and therefore meaning is the construct of a sentient mind.

A life lived without meaning will come to a crunchy end because it is a freak of nature, aberrance!

Even the lichen on the rock has no such concepts because it follows its instinct to live just as strongly as the most fearful human. In its existence it must leach nutrients from the rock or perish. Self preservation is the meaning and the causality as to why anything really gets done by things that freely exist and freely act.

And there the problem with us swims into view because in my view our society is becoming a hive mentality as technology and a reduction in freedoms brings us ever tighter together and swiftly we lose that which is important to our individuality. Take this away from us and we take drastic measure to hold on ever strong to it. Our sense of self is what sets us apart and gives us our sense of self s. To become one with government, society and the needs of the whole becomes secondary to the needs of the one. We are not bees or ants and though we number in the billions it is not inevitable we would become subservient to the whole. I think that Globalisation is a dangerous precedent that could bring us all to an age of a black existence or service but in the end there is always choice, choice to play or not.

It is always your choice alone to have a god of not and if you are converted via a gun barrel or threat then you are not being converted and you have not given away your soul, you have been threatened only. God is only a choice and always a very personal choice and comes from a deep need within that cannot be forced upon another.

The paradox and the crime I think is to find those who do or do not believe try so hard to inflict their notion of their reality on another who comes from the opposite view.

Disclaimer: I rejected my god in childhood and I have no god now but I am very spiritual in nature and I do not think less of you if you have or do not have a god just as long as my choice is also respected.





[edit on 17-7-2010 by SmokeJaguar67]

reply to post by SmokeJaguar67

Love your god and love yourself and then get over it, get over yourself and move on.

Get over myself?
Must be missing a page here or something.
Why?

reply to post by randyvs


Oh no my brother so sorry I did not mean it as in get over yourself in a derogatory or insulting way and I was not meaning you - rather I was meaning myself more than anything.

*slap* to self

reply to post by SmokeJaguar67


Whew thank somebody I used patience at the right time. YA!
I thought," great people I have barely even talk to hate me" go'in
away all butt hurt.


So back to my original "A" comment on your post.

Would I be correct in the contention that you really enjoyed posting to this OP.
I mean what a great response you gave.



[edit on 17-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


Oh yes very much so as I do like threads that allow me to get my thoughts out even though most of the time few understand my bumbling rambles but hey, thats why I have no friends and why my wife hits me with a stick

Thank you for not squeezing that trigger

God of intelligence is like reality and God is like gravity
Just denpends on your point of viewing

reply to post by randyvs


He was trying to say that he was foolish for not believing in god, because of the fact that he (CS) disliked "life".

The whole quote is based in faulty logic.

A god does not exist, just because I don't like life.

To even suggest that, shows lack of critical thinking skills.

CS is a GREAT fictional writer, this piece is a perfect example of that.

Using the "perfect world fallacy" in this way makes me sick, HEY! I don't like that fallacy, MORE proof of a god...

reply to post by adigregorio

He was trying to say that he was foolish for not believing in god, because of the fact that he (CS) disliked "life".

Yes That's perfectly fine with me too. Your interpretation that is. All I wanted, is what you just gave to the thread. Listen, on something like this it
dosn't take a lot of brain function to introduce the topic right? Is it not obvious that this is a learning thing for me. I was hoping
some of the great thinkers at this site might spark up some conversation
or even some debate.
I simply recognise this is a great way to learn/retain facts.
"The more you are around it the more of it you will pick up".
I guess is the idea.
I couldn't critique this quote as good as you have by any stretch.
Do you really think I'm gonna argue with you? I'm not crazy.
And I know my limatations. That's really all I have go'in for me.
Certain things are Dear and they go to the grave with me.
Any way there's some truth bout me. If you havn't already drawn your conclusions.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs

I couldn't critique this quote as good as you have by any stretch.

If you are not being sarcastic, I thank you for this complement. Though I would not call it "good". Mediocre at best. And remember CS is my favorite author (talk about irony!).

I also do not discount the idea of a god. I just say that the logic he used in that instance was faulty.

Also, if your post is not sarcastic:

Please, go easier on yourself! It DOES take ALOT of brain function to post THIS type of thread. You recognized what CS was saying, you put the same pieces together he did. Just because the logic is faulty, does not make it "not logic".

You have a brain, and it is just as good as anyone else.

Do you really think I'm gonna argue with you?

I was hoping for debate, more than arguing. Your posts (for the most part) contain many words, and well thought out ideas. I enjoy reading them (in a good way).

Just because I do not think there is a god, doesn't mean there is not a god. Same as CS, just because he thinks there is a god, doesn't mean there is a god.

We already knew that about me though

As for drawing conclusions about you, I suck at drawing.

Lastly, about limitations. There is no limit to my limitations.

reply to post by adigregorio


Now I can fix this up for you.

Also, if your post is not sarcastic

That would n't just be sarcasm that would be staight out lying.

I try to greet new members like this. I just give em the tip to speak the truth as they know it because that's what works for me.

I slip this in their intro as a reminder.



That's what I make myself about on these boards. Some people really hate that.

There is no limit to my limitations.

Mind if I use that from time to time?

[edit on 17-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


So, are you saying you were being sarcastic?

Your response has me confused, as does the Godsmack video.

reply to post by adigregorio


The video is what I'm about stud. Speak the truth as you know it.That's me no confusion
So if what you call sarcasm, I call straight out lying. Then no it isn't sarcasm. K? I'm being vague. I'm sorry.

Please, go easier on yourself! It DOES take ALOT of brain function to post THIS type of thread. You recognized what CS was saying, you put the same pieces together he did. Just because the logic is faulty, does not make it "not logic".

Ya I guess you're right about that.
I'm not gonna argue with it anyway.
Thanks for helping me see that, again we agree.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


I don't understand.

Are you lying about this:

I couldn't critique this quote as good as you have by any stretch.

Do you think that my critique was faulty?

Were you "being an ass" to me? Or were you being genuine?

If it is the first, then why would I want to be with your god. Look what he spawns...

reply to post by adigregorio


Not even I would never consider it. That's a negative.

We really have to work on that communication thing. You know?

The post was as genuine as I can be.


Are we clear?

[edit on 17-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


Whew! And yes, now.

'Tis not your limitation this time, but mine.

(Oh, and I forgot, all of my lines are Copyleft Un-Protected. Feel free to take, and distribute!)

EDIT (To add)
PS My head is pounding right now too. Hopefully not a migraine a brewin'. So that will inhibit my abilities too.

As for "your god" two points:

1) When I say that quote (or variation) it is not insulting. I have no other way of describing Him/It. (Currently )

2) I am agnostic-like. Which means; I believe your god exists, along with all other gods/goddesses. At the same time, I believe they don't exist. (Basically, "If it is real to you, it is real." Who am I to say "nope" )

(I didn't have a Godsmack video (Also why I didn't understand the video, that whole headache thing.))

Thank you for clearing this up. I am off to try to eat dinner, when I get back I will "play" some more. Like I said, I LOVE CS Lewis! Even this, for his logic (while faulty) is beautiful, isn't it.