It's really sad how some people here refuse to deal in facts., page 4

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reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:38 PM by soleprobe

Originally posted by solomons path
Theories in science are not "guesses". They are a collection of facts based on experimentation and observations.

Theories are a collection of assumptions or conjectures. Facts are a collection of truths. If you can not change the meaning of the word theory to mean fact, then the same holds true for the plural: theories are NOT facts.

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:39 PM by NineEleven11

reply to post by LookingIn

It is actually worse than that...

People will actually cite experiments and come to a conclusion before their experiments were independently verified. Even worse than that, they will think they are done experimenting!

You can do two experiments that seem to point to one conclusion, but it isn't until you do the third experiment that you find out your first conclusion was completely wrong. That is a huge problem. People usually stop at the first two experiments so to speak.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by NineEleven11]

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:43 PM by wcitizen

reply to post by SaosinEngaged

I understand what you mean. The main problem with this situation is that no-one HAS any facts.

The clamp down on any real information coming out, when the situation is potentially so huge and immensely worrying, really does give rise to speculation.

Everyone needs information and none is forthcoming. So it is impossible to face the 'reality' of the situation.

The secrecy SUGGESTS there is something not good going on there. The people in charge - BP,Obama, Haliburton, the Government - have all betrayed the people's trust badly more than once, and people want to know the truth, and want to come to terms with potentially one of the biggest ecological disasters the world has known...but they are being denied that possibility.

Given the propensity for lies that these people are known to have - there is an enormous amount of mistrust, and rightly so. This event could be anything from a false flat to a real, unimaginable disaster for millions of people in the world.

People want to know the truth, they want to know what is being done, they want to know what support and help the locals are gitting, they want to know that everything possible is being done, and if not why not. And these are all things that those in charge down there do not want us to have.

It is outrageous and criminal that they are getting away with this secrecy.

I

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:44 PM by mothershipzeta

Originally posted by FearNoEvil
reply to post by SaosinEngaged
I predict people will die from the chemicals released into the GoM and there will not be one BP employee or one government employee serve jail time for causing the deaths of innocent people.

See also: Massey Energy.

The fact that Don Blankenship has not been arrested for, at the VERY LEAST, voluntary manslaughter or negligent homicide shows us that we have two systems of justice - one for the "little people," and one for "our betters."

The reason the rich and powerful run to claim "Class Warfare!" when you bring up inconvenient facts is because they know REAL class warfare would put them up against the wall in a heartbeat.

If corporations are considered people, then Massey Energy should be seized by the government just like a person would be.

Sometimes, I think the guillotine wasn't such a bad idea...

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:47 PM by mothershipzeta

Originally posted by wcitizen
reply to post by SaosinEngaged

People want to know the truth, they want to know what is being done, they want to know what support and help the locals are gitting, they want to know that everything possible is being done, and if not why not. And these are all things that those in charge down there do not want us to have.

It is outrageous and criminal that they are getting away with this secrecy.

But the way to do this is to demand the truth, rather than have a dozen or so people come out who claim to know "The Truth," thus gaining adherents for several theories while the actual truth never comes out.

Even if it's just random neural firings rather than intentional disinformation, it only succeeds in muddying the waters so that the true evildoers always get away with it.

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:51 PM by mothershipzeta

Originally posted by soleprobe

Originally posted by solomons path
Theories in science are not "guesses". They are a collection of facts based on experimentation and observations.

Theories are a collection of assumptions or conjectures. Facts are a collection of truths. If you can not change the meaning of the word theory to mean fact, then the same holds true for the plural: theories are NOT facts.

:sigh:

Here we go again. Note the bolded bits.

Theory

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena

According to the American Association for the Advancement of Science,

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:52 PM by NineEleven11

Originally posted by zroth
I understand and am having some fun which is probably not fair.

For example, you wrote "science is not religion" and then while defending it told me a particular science is like religion. That is OK. Rather than poke a hole in your argument I choose to commend you, establish rapport and work together to discover the truth.

You obviously still don't understand, you just think you do. You can't poke a hole in my argument.

Just because "fundamental science" and "theoretical science" both have the word "science" in it, doesn't mean they are both the same thing.

I said "theoretical science is like a religion" only because of the THEORETICAL part of it. There are some theories that can not be tested, so they are forced to always be theories. Religion is basically a theory of God, which some believe can never be tested.

Fundamental science is NOT a religion. It is the truth which we arrived at with observation of what is real. 2+2=4 is truth, it is scientific fact.

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:57 PM by solomons path

Originally posted by soleprobe

Originally posted by solomons path
Theories in science are not "guesses". They are a collection of facts based on experimentation and observations.

Theories are a collection of assumptions or conjectures. Facts are a collection of truths. If you can not change the meaning of the word theory to mean fact, then the same holds true for the plural: theories are NOT facts.

You're arguing from a point of ignorance . . .

Theory - every day definitons

How a theory is described in scientific terms

Scientific Theory discussed near bottom of page

Scientific Theory

Theorem in Mathematics

EDIT - Forgot link to theorem

[edit on 7/16/10 by solomons path]

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 04:57 PM by wcitizen

reply to post by SaosinEngaged

Re: 'Thinking everything is a lie, everything is a cover up,' -

PSST! - isn't that hyperbole too?

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:00 PM by zroth

Originally posted by NineEleven11

You obviously still don't understand, you just think you do.

You can't poke a hole in my argument.

I said <--This is called unraveling when you start a sentence this way.

Not only do I think...I do understand and you can't prove otherwise. The reality of this situation is that I can poke a whole in anything despite what you've said.

It is called pride before the fall.

Current science is realizing there is much more than meets the eye. The senses are not to rule us. They are just a start to what we can know.

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:04 PM by darkelf

Gloom and doom threads do have a purpose. Hopefully worst case scenarios will make people do a little research on their own. I refuse to believe anything simply because it was said by someone with a bunch of letters behind their name. I want to hear both sides of the story.

I have been accused of presenting misinformation and fear mongering, but I really don't care. I believe in preparing for the worst and praying for the best. You can't do that without knowing what the worst is. Do I believe that the worst will happen? Probably. One day someone is going to be right with thier end of the world prediction. I'm not gonna worry about it until I can see the signs.

The idea is not to live in fear but just to be aware.

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:05 PM by mr20121221

FACT FACTS FACTUIAL
are subject to change at a moments notice, and are only as good as the last time you updated them

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:09 PM by XxiTzYoMasterxX

reply to post by SaosinEngaged

I agree Saosin.Not everything is a conspiracy.

But check out this video.
www.youtube.com...

It's about the movie Knowing with Nicolas Cage.It's about knowing of future disasters before they happen.It's about the gulf of Mexico.

My point is that there are a lot of things out there that make people think it's some sort of conspiracy.All though it's just people's opinions and not proven facts it puts ideas into peoples heads that might not necessarily be true.So I understand where Saosin is coming from.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by XxiTzYoMasterxX]

[edit on 16-7-2010 by XxiTzYoMasterxX]

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:10 PM by wcitizen

reply to post by SaosinEngaged

"Like the topic on the main page about BP "obviously" covering up another leak. Everyone's acting like that's some sort of fact, when the reality is it's nothing more than wild speculation."

OK, the 'obviously' is subjective - but OP you haven't done your research. There are MANY highly qualified experts - who themselves are reduced to speculation due to the information black-out, who have put this forward as a very strong possibility. So, by dint of circumstances speculation is pretty much the only option we have...but are these experts only throwing about wild speculations? That's not my understanding of what the word means.

Seems to me your statement, which is presented as fact, is in itself inaccurate (wild?) speculation.

Some people should practice what they preach, just sayin'

[edit on 16-7-2010 by wcitizen]

[edit on 16-7-2010 by wcitizen]

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:10 PM by zroth

Originally posted by mr20121221
FACT FACTS FACTUIAL
are subject to change at a moments notice, and are only as good as the last time you updated them

this is a good point.

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:11 PM by StarTraveller

reply to post by zroth

Agreed! to be honest

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:13 PM by NineEleven11

Originally posted by zroth
I said <--This is called unraveling when you start a sentence this way.

Pathetic....

I used the words "I said" because I was quoting myself after it. It's not unraveling, it's just quoting myself. Now you are just making things up, which is pathetic.

Originally posted by zroth
Not only do I think...I do understand and you can't prove otherwise.

You proved it yourself already that you don't understand by opening your mouth.

I already proved that you don't understand when I pointed out your error of thinking fundamnetal and theoretical science are both like religion because they both have the word "science" in them, and because I think the theoretical part of theoretical science is what is like religion.

Science is a METHOD of study! It's a METHOD used to find answers. Science can never and will never be like religion.

The fact that you think science is like a religion menas YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND what science is.

So I just proved again, you don't understand.

Originally posted by zroth
The reality of this situation is that I can poke a whole in anything despite what you've said.

No, that is your THEORY of this situation. The FACT of the situation is that you can only create the ILLUSION of poking holes.

b.t.w. .... Poke a "whole"?

Originally posted by zroth
It is called pride before the fall.

Yeah, I see your pride. Time for you to fall.

Originally posted by zroth
Current science is realizing there is much more than meets the eye. The senses are not to rule us. They are just a start to what we can know.

Science is a method, not a position.

You failed.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by NineEleven11]

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:26 PM by filosophia

I'm sorry, I missed the facts in your opening statement,
can you repeat them for me?

[edit on 16-7-2010 by filosophia]

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:27 PM by zroth

Originally posted by NineEleven11

I was quoting myself...It's not unraveling, it's just quoting myself.

You proved it yourself already that you don't understand by opening your mouth.

I already proved that you don't understand when I pointed out your error of thinking fundamnetal and theoretical science are both like religion because they both have the word "science" in them, and because I think the theoretical part of theoretical science is what is like religion.

The fact that you think science is like a religion menas YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND what science is.

Poke a "whole"?

Science is a method, not a position.

You failed.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by NineEleven11]

The thing is that you are more interested in being right than realizing what is happening here.

You are getting desperate at this point. I never "opened my mouth". Your science has failed to use proven observations here.

You actually have not proven anything other than you are upset that my opinion is in-congruent to yours.

Science is an attempt to understand the absolute. You keep claiming I do not understand which is a fallacy. I simply choose not to posses a limited view while respecting your right to.

The grammar Nazi is another of my favorite unraveling techniques. Most scientists will attack when they cannot properly defend their religion. Its OK. Religious zealots do this too. Out of curiosity, did you notice your few grammatical errors? Since you didn't get it...poking a whole is the process we are going through to help you see beyond the tunnel you are staring into.

Science is not a method. It is a word with multiple meanings.

e.g - The sacred sciences have been forced underground by the barbaric principles of modern era scientists.

We all fail at some point!

Peace

reply posted on 16-7-2010 @ 05:39 PM by NightGypsy

reply to post by airspoon

You can't really knock people for posting them here. If this wasn't a conspiracy themed board, then I could easily run with your argument.

It's not the posting of the conspiracies that's the problem, it's the lack of ability to instill some reality in with what is supposed to be open-minded thinking. Some things we see here are downright silly.

As for jumping to conclusions that there's a conspiracy involved everywhere we turn . . . well, doesn't it appear that has been the case? It seems we're surrounded by them. People are tired of being played for fools, and at some point a person tends to get a bit paranoid. It's a defense mechanism, I think. I've experienced it myself, but once you see yourself doing it, you try to use a little more self-restraint because it becomes easy to make assumptions about a situation when you've been subjected to nothing but lies. We all know what happens when you make assumptions without looking at the whole picture.