It's really sad how some people here refuse to deal in facts.

I couldn't agree more with the OP.

Speculating on facts is just that...speculation. But too many get carried away and before you know it they have worked themselves into believing that everything is a conspiracy. I have to wonder if some are just losing their grip.

You have to understand your dealing with a very large amount of young people or otherwise who do not really have the awareness required to do any research. I mean why should they, they have Alex Jones!!!

What really annoys me too is, even despite someone posting a series of logical facts completely destroying whatever credibility the original post had, you will still find another 50 pages of people agreeing how the original post is so enlightning and THE TRUTH.

Total madness.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Johnze]

Originally posted by Dumbass

Originally posted by NineEleven11

Originally posted by zroth
Fact = Science is based on some theories.

That is WRONG.

Science is based on observations, not theories. That is what experiments are for.

An object falling towards the Earth increases speed by 9.81 metres per second every second. We call it gravity. The idea of gravity was created from an observation of objects falling to Earth. It was not created by some guy who was bored and decided to create a theory.

The only theories are the ideas which try to explain how or why gravity works. To prove a theory is true, they do experiments which would prove or disprove the theory, and observe the results.

Most people on this forum don't care about observations, or experiments, or facts. They just create theories because they feed on excitment and impending doom. Also because most conspiracy theorist are paranoid schizophrenics, and suffering from conspiracy induced phsychosis.

To stop the discussion on what science actually is as it is not the topic:

science (oxford dictionary)
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment

Theories can be the basis for an experiment, experiments can be obseverved, observations can provide facts



[edit on 16-7-2010 by Dumbass]

Now thats what I like! Dumbass, you aren't a dumbass!
This is a dumbass...
1. dumbass
Someone who looks up the word "dumbass" in a dictionary.
www.urbandictionary.com...

OMG, I was trying to make a point that taking a little time to research something is better than speculating.
I'm laughing so hard Im crying

To be serious though, I see some of what the OP is trying to say.
I also see WHY many become fearful too. We are constantly being lied to. We are witnessing blatant disregard for the wellbeing of not only the creatures but of people.
For the above reasons alone we have to question everything.
I like it when I'm reading a thread (that is causing fear, end of the world doom and gloom) I like it when the next post has someone cautioning others that the thread is fear mongering, backing their opinion with sound rational but true facts or observations.
That helps me to regain my focus instead of falling for disinfo and wasting my time and emotions.
I hope more will take the time out to calm the atmosphere so we can more productive.
I love hearing so many different views, it helps me to wake up and smell the coffee, not to take what I hear from the MSM as gospel. ATS is truly an incredible and wonderful site!

reply to post by zroth


Actually . . . Theories in science are not "guesses". They are a collection of facts based on experimentation and observations. You should have stated it this way . . . Hypothesis is the best guess and are verified or rejected based on experimentation and observation. Hypothesis that is backed up through experimentation and observation are considered fact, and then become part of a theory.

I do however agree with the rest of your post.

EDIT TO ADD - It may seem like symantics to some, but by misreprenting what a theory is you are supporting what the OP is ranting about.

[edit on 7/16/10 by solomons path]

conspiracy is nothing new, eventually the truth comes out,

Reminds of pre WW2 when people in Germany begged leaders of other countries to intervien to stop Hitler the SS movement form forming from rooting.

What did the leaders do Your crazy, crazy conspiracy people. I don't want to get involved. I just to live life, peaceful quite.
What could this group possible do?

Same references perverting government law media the common people, mass extinction of wildlife, and possible extinction of people and there lives.

History repeats all for some concept of having power over others.

S+F my friend. S and Effing F.

This is something I wanted to make a thread about last week, but honestly I was just too frustrated to do it properly without coming off as an angry misanthrope.

This entire ordeal (the GoM incident) has given me a really good idea of just how many people here have their heads so clamped betwixt their buttocks, there would be no removing them. What are they doing up there? Reading the Book of Revelation undoubtedly , ignoring the laws of physics and chemistry, ignoring everything except a SKY IS FALLING panic mentality backed by zealous biblical nonsense. Taking one word (Methane) for example and using it as if every form of methane no matter what the concentration were some kind of 500 megaton weapon that will blow the planet out of orbit and kill everyone in a radioactive tsunami, preceded by angels blowing trumpets and talking eagles. It was at least funny a week prior when it was Sulphur! Oooo... sulphur. Brimstone! You just KNOW what that means!

It's gone from entertaining to sickening really fast. I'm now left amazed at how it's possible for ignorant, inbred flipper babies to type that tripe with such speed and accuracy with those... you know... flippers! I guess it will always be one of life's true mysteries.

If anything, it's given me a good house cleaning on the ATS account. More people on Ignore = less ignorance. More = less! Math is fun.

reply to post by Dumbass


What was the point of your post? All you did was prove what I said was right, that science is based on observations and experiments of the physical world.

I was ON TOPIC because this topic is about people refusing to deal with facts. Scientific theories do not become facts until they can predict outcomes of experiments. The OP is complaining about people spreading theories as if they were already facts. They can't be facts until they predict an outcome.

For example, it's a theory that BP caused the oil spill on purpose in order get the "go ahead" on drilling "relief wells", and gain more profit from this oil hot spot. Some people are going around talking as if this theory was already a fact, however, this theory has not been tested, or observed to be true, so it is not fact yet.

People are failing to deal with FACTS. They are only dealing with untested theories.

reply to post by EnkiCarbone


Breath Dammit Breath!!

I think that there are 'some' that like all the doom and gloom but the majority of us here do try and be as precise as we can without going all PMT!!.

Not sure if you can read this as I am not sure if I am ignored or not

reply to post by StarTraveller


Naww, man. You're still good

Breathing manually now. Thanks for your concern.

To me, it's not so much a matter of believing what the MSM writes or broadcasts as it is to go in a direction that seems to lack any evidence.

There very well could be a huge leak but in the video that I watched I believe that the person talking said that it was leaking 120,000 barrels of oil per day. The video of oil coming up from the ocean floor show a little seepage. No way is that a 120,000 barrel per day leak.

So, I think, that what the OP is asking for is to provide proof of claims. I don't think that he is asking for blind obedience to the MSM.

SO, again, where is the evidence of a huge oil leak not coming from the wellhead.

BTW, I don't trust BP. I have my doubts about most news people because all the do is read a teleprompter.

reply to post by EnkiCarbone


hehe no prbs, because I now know I am not ignored and I feel this thread needs to lighten up slightly, here's a random image

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/57d52f9de30f.jpg[/atsimg]





[edit on 16-7-2010 by StarTraveller]

Originally posted by zroth
Science is another religion. Being right most of the time does not mean you understand how it works. Best guess is a theory. Physics is split between theory and observation.

I guess you didn't/don't understand...

Science is not a religion.

You and many others on ATS constantly confuse fundamental science with theoretical science.

Fundamental science describes how things act. For example, how fast an object will fall to Earth.

Theoretical science explains how things act. For example, it's a theory that curves in space and time cause objects to fall to Earth.

Theoretical science is like a religion, not fundamental science. The study of theoretical sciences (experiments and observations of theories) gives birth to facts (fundamental science).

How does this relate to the topic?

Well, ATS is full of theoretical scientists (conspiracy theorists) that rarely ever do any experiments which could support or debunk their theories. They just go around and preach their theories as if they are already tested, and observed to be true (not dealing with facts). This is VERY DANGEROUS FOR ALL OF HUMANITY. Especially dangerous for gullible extremists who react before thinking.

Science can not always be trusted. Scientist will say anything for a grant. People can be wrong and more often than not they are; even the smartest and strongest among us.

If you were to group people by their vocation, scientists and engineers would be the most dishonest group. At court trials equally credentialed 'experts' are often at odds. Scientific opinion is for sale to the highest bidder. It's easy to lie to people about a subject when mathematics are involved. (How many of you have a degree in math? I do btw)

Science can not disprove the proposition that anything is possible.

Scientists are always servants and never masters. Science has no morality nor ethics.

Science is a tool and as such is limited in scope and applicability. Science is not un-assailable truth.

Like religion science if often used to separate a person from their common sense. Science and superstition are 2 sides of the same coin. If you really want to flim flam somebody there are 2 routes to go: science and superstition.

Relying on 'expert testimony' in order to form one's opinions means one doesn't really know what they are talking about.

The sun rises in the east and 2+2=4. Outside of this the truth is up for grabs.

I hope the leak has been stopped. I do not want to see gloom and doom. I feel for the people of the gulf as none of them deserved what has happened to them.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if BP is found to be lying and neither should anyone else.

reply to post by SaosinEngaged

I must admit, I get hyped up a bit at times due to the FACT that this is the WORST ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER in the HISTORY of the US. When I get angry, I can be offensive - for that I apologize. But I have never called this an end of the world scenario. In fact, I counter argue against all the prophecy fulfillment claims.

Now, I WILL make a Doom and Gloom prediction...

I predict people will die from the chemicals released into the GoM and there will not be one BP employee or one government employee serve jail time for causing the deaths of innocent people.

Does that seem far fetched to you? If not, you ought to be mad as hell too.

Peace

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by SaosinEngaged

 

Some of the ridiculous ideas could prove to have some merit, even if not completely. And sometimes ATS will hit on something. Umm... maybe you should go around forums and dispute them with counter-facts or express doubt or something.

Most theories being thrown around from mysterious sources have already been disproved, but people still accept it...

because EVERYONE IS LYING TOO US.

and MSM isn't telling us all the weird and exciting doomsday fact because everything might just be as it seems, but it still can't be cause EVERYONE IS LYING TOO US.

People should ask questions, but not be fooled ATM MSM doesn't need any cover cause there is million more bad influences discussing silly theories that drag you ever further from the truth.

reply to post by SaosinEngaged


You have to understand the mentality of some people who frequent this website, and sadly it seems to have become mainstream. People on this website want conspiracy and see it often, it solves a deep need for there to be an overlay, a grand scheme to explain seemingly unconnected incidents.

This is simply a part of being human. We put together things which seem seperate but are actually a part of the same thing. The problems occur when people put together facts which just don't belong. I myself have put together things which i think connect but i try my best to actually have a factual connection.

People want BP to be an evil empire and they may be right but it's no different from the other petrochemical empires. They all dump tons of toxic waste into the oceans it's just this dumping is very public. Every single oil drilling company dumps tons of toxic waste and burns tons of gas every single day and just because it's happening near america it is news.

Lets get this one sorted. Yes this is an oil leak, yes they are trying to cover the worst aspects, because any company would to avoid loses in share prices! There is no mystery and any conspiracy is obvious to anyone involved in business. It's all about damage limitation.

This does not however mean they leaked the oil deliberately to kill millions of people and/or destroy an ecosystem to cull the global population.

Meh.

reply to post by NineEleven11

Well, ATS is full of theoretical scientists (conspiracy theorists) that rarely ever do any experiments which could support or debunk their theories.

I've observed its becoming much worse than that, NineEleven11. It's not that they don't do experiments, it's that they won't even read the preceding pages of the thread where the relevant experiments have been cited. Not only will they not do experiments or external research, they won't even read the whole damn thread before posting....

reply to post by NineEleven11


I understand and am having some fun which is probably not fair.

This is a bright community. The biggest issue I see here and in the real-world too, is that people are too quick to argue the words and ignore the message.

For example, you wrote "science is not religion" and then while defending it told me a particular science is like religion. That is OK. Rather than poke a hole in your argument I choose to commend you, establish rapport and work together to discover the truth.

I could do the same thing with Christianity by breaking into Catholic, Lutheran, Mormon, LDS, Fundamentalist, etc;

Humanity's desire to attack another person is alive and well here too.

Words are the club that bashes the head of the lesser life-form, as viewed by the barbarian.

Brains breed similar violence s to brawn, believe it or not.

In regards to the OP, I admire the intent. My constructive criticism would be to boil it down, to concise messaging and have it handy for a copy/paste when you run across violators. having a separate thread may not have the impact you want as bird of a feather will flock hear and the intended recipients will blow past it.

Peace

edit because my grammar is bad!

[edit on 16-7-2010 by zroth]

Where to start, where to start... well it is going completly OT but OK

reply to post by sweetliberty


reply to post by NineEleven11


Well why do I show the explaination of the dictionary... Pretty simple, the word "science" is used in different ways by different people. So to enclose the discussion of a word, you, we, everyone in the discussion should use the same explaination of the word. While I was getting my master degree, with has dealt with a lot of theories, showing the explainations of words by the oxford dictionary, let the (kw)academics shut up their attacks on words, and they need to focus on the thesis. With all the sheeple that have moved from following the MSM (etc, don't feel to eleborate) to following the Conspiracies (etc, don't feel to eleborate) but still being Sheeple in just another herd, it is obvioous the OP wants to show them that not everything can automatically be considered as fact. So...

reply to post by sweetliberty


loved your link

reply to post by NineEleven11


I did not say you were right or wrong. Just wanted to clear the info stated above

Originally posted by nikiano

Originally posted by SaosinEngaged
With a disaster as horrible is this, it greatly irritates me how hyperbolic many posters have become.

Thinking everything is a lie, everything is a cover up, the world is ending in a methane explosion of fiery doom and pain, an earthquake that's going to crack the earth in two and pop open like an easter egg...

Enough already.

Stop letting wild speculation get the best of you. Deal with the facts. Don't let the opinion of some random "expert" take hold of you and allow you to propogate that opinion as fact. It's really sad the extent to which that happens here on this board.

Like the topic on the main page about BP "obviously" covering up another leak. Everyone's acting like that's some sort of fact, when the reality is it's nothing more than wild speculation. Treat it as such.

Remember, deny ignorance. It works both ways. Just because we're wise to conspiracy theories doesn't mean we turn EVERYTHING into some massive doomsday conspiracy.

It angers me, because even after the well has capped, it almost seems like some of you WANT this catastrophe to continue so you can propogate more of this world ending doomsday nonsense. It's really aggrivating.

The spill is bad enough, we don't need layers of hyperbole added on top of it. I can respect everyone's opinion, but only if it isn't propogated as fact.

Just because you heard XXXX from YYYY doesn't mean XXXX is going to happen or that YYYYY is even as credible a source as you seem to believe.

You want to deal with facts only? Maybe you've missed the FACT that this website is a CONSPIRACY THEORY website, which fosters speculative thinking. If you can't deal with that, I'd suggest going to a different website, that only deals with discussions in fact. This isn't it.

So, "deny ignorance" only applies to "official stories?"

The problem is when someone goes against the norm, their word is automatically taken as gospel, since it doesn't match up with the official version of what's going on.

That's not denying ignorance - that's embracing it.

And as far as to what you state is "FACT" - that this is a "CONSPIRACY THEORY" website, the operators of the site don't agree with you:

AboveTopSecret.com is the Internet's largest and most popular discussion board community dedicated to the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of "alternative topics" such as conspiracies, UFO's, paranormal, secret societies, political scandals, new world order, terrorism, and dozens of related topics with an impressive demographic mix of members.
...
The simple yet effective motto of our membership is "deny ignorance", which signifies an effort to apply the principals of critical thought and peer review to the provocative topics covered within.
...
The Motto: "Deny Ignorance"

More than a slogan and deeper than a mission statement, our members have embraced the motto of "Deny Ignorance" as our reson detre, demanding everyone who posts to aspire to a higher standard of participation. These simple two words have galvanized a broad membership base that spans the spectrum from highly speculative conspiracy writers to staunch skeptics. The result is a unique collaboration of diverse individuals rallying under this simple statement to learn from each other, discover new truths, and imagine new ideas that expand mind.

So, it appears YOU are on the wrong site.