Canada to buy F-35s for $ 9 to 16 Billion

Looks like the defence minister is about to announce the planed purchase of the F-35 today. Its a awarded contract that wasn't up for competitor submissions and that fact is going to draw a lot of flak. Here is a bit of this morning news.

The contract to replace Canada's CF-18 Hornets hasn't even been announced, and already MacKay is defending the purchase of 65 new F-35 Lightning fighter planes. The contract is worth between $6 billion and $9 billion, but the full price tag will rise to as much $18 billion once the government signs a maintenance contract.

"This is an aircraft that will give us futuristic capacity, that will surely enable us to secure our own sovereignty," MacKay said.

The jet purchase and the accompanying long-term maintenance plan has drawn criticism from the Liberal opposition and former senior public servants who say the massive outlay of public cash lacks transparency because it was not subjected to other competitive bids.

Read more: www.cbc.ca...
The press conference is scheduled for 11:00 E/T

No country is going to let us have anything they can't shoot down, turn off, or screw up while in the shop.
This is why the Arrow was scrapped back in the day.

These machines will be half cheep chinee, and half flying rubber dog barfs that can be zapped from space, or will fly on hackable software that can be erased by pointing a kitchenette microwave at them from the top of a tree stump.

But somewhere a can of crushed a-holes will be laughing all the way to the bank.

If they wanted to defend Canada properly they would remove the long gun registry, and the magazine limits, and allow full auto, and make shooting, and martial arts, and bush craft, mandatory courses in puplic through hi school, along with reading writing and rithmatic, and smoke signalling.
Kids would want to stay in school then, and the resulting intellectual content of the peeps would guarentee our country would stay tight, and that every one would want us on their side.

The highest form of warfare is fighting without fighting...just ask the foreign lobbies that control our government.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Danbones]

Without question, we need to beef up our capacity to patrol and defend the north. Why is it necessary to forgo doing a competitive bid though?
What pressure was there to buy from the US?
Why can't anything ever get done without the political BS?
Are we an independent country, or not? .........don't answer that ....

Forget all the political BS. the F-35 fails at the requested needs that we outlined for the dual engine. This is part of the reason that the 18 was chosen over the 16.

Another point...

I'm always happy when we do support our military with new equipment but I don't like the route that the C-17s and other contracts have been given as of late to the US companies with no open competition. There are short coming in doing it either way though. The US air-refueling competition shows the issues that can be run into if the competition is poorly run.

reply to post by Danbones


Yeah, the death of the Avril Arrow was really sad. I'm told the US pressurized Canada to scrap the program, and up to half the scientists who worked on it went to work for NASA.

I was fortunate enough to see an Arrow at the Wheels and Wings show in Downsview in 2008 - Very Impressive, and very big!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ff3be58c492c.jpg[/atsimg]


[edit on 16-7-2010 by TortoiseKweek]

Having lived in Cold Lake and seeing the CF-18 in action alot, it is amazing what they can do with that thing. That being said, we have been using those since 1982 I believe, time to find something else. I don't agree with going for the F35 though, I would have preferred the F-22, but apparently only Israel can get those. You would think that for a country preaching security at all costs would have let their neighbor to the north buy a few so that we can cover the northern 2/3 of North America.

I would like to see Canada get away from American made equipment altogether. Buy from the Russians. The equipment is made for our climate and is much cheaper. With the money we save we can buy the English version of the owner's manual.

Originally posted by Rook1545
I would have preferred the F-22, but apparently only Israel can get those.

Israel cannot purchase the F-22, it does not have an exception to the law that forbids the F-22 from being sold to foreign countries.

All politics and history aside I would agree: Buy Russian.
Canadians are more in tune with the attitude behind their manufacturing.
And I hear they are competitive in the ability departement...
and no cheep chinee electronics.
Other then that hope we get invaded by American made from China so it won't make it through the first hard ( Normal Canadian) winter.
PS
oR Buy British Robot planes they will prolly make all the piloted planes obsolete or will very shortly

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Danbones]

Seems like no one is really excited about this purchase. I know I'm not. I don't think the plane is worth its high price tag. I'd rather they went with something else like the EF-2000 or if it has to be an American plane, then perhaps an F/A-18E/F.

As long as they make them here, with mostly Canadian parts, I have no problem with my gov't dumping 16 billion into our economy.

Originally posted by Danbones
All politics and history aside I would agree: Buy Russian.

The big issue with buying Russian is not the equipment, which is excellent, but its the after market care - a lot of countries are finding it hard to get good quality replacement parts and knowledge out of MiG and Sukhoi after purchasing aircraft. The only real countries that seem to be doing OK are those ones that went for a big technology transfer deal in the guise of a production line or three - and even India is having issues procuring engines for its native new builds.

The equipment is good, but you might be going out on a limb with regard to maintenance.

reply to post by Canada_EH


Canada made the right decision.
They'll reap the benefits in many ways later on down the road. Canada will recoup a large percentage of that investment. So in the end they'll pay pennies on the dollar.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II

Canada's rationale for joining the JSF project was not due to an urgent need to replace Canada's fleet of CF-18 Hornets; instead, it was driven primarily by economics.[165] Through Canadian government investment in the JSF project, Canadian companies were allowed to compete for contracts within the JSF project, as there were fears that being shut out from industrial participation in such a large program would severely damage the Canadian aviation industry.[165] Joining also furthered Canadian access to information regarding the F-35 as a possible contender when it eventually plans to replace the CF-18 Hornet fleet. Improved interoperability with major allies allowed the DND to gain insight on leading edge practices in composites, manufacturing and logistics, and offered the ability to recoup some investment if the government did decide to purchase the F-35.[165]

As a result of the Canadian government investment in the JSF project, 144 contracts were awarded to Canadian companies, universities, and government facilities. Financially, the contracts are valued at US$490 million for the period 2002 to 2012, with an expected value of US$1.1 billion from current contracts in the period between 2013 and 2023, and a total potential estimated value of Canadian JSF involvement from US$4.8 billion to US$6.8 billion.[165]

[edit on 16-7-2010 by SLAYER69]

Tactically, like in a strike mission, the F-35s VTOL capabilities will become very useful in CF strike missions. It's not like we need air superiority fighters in conflicts such as Afghanistan (obviously we won't be there when we receive F-35s though).

Though it doesn't really cut it as an interceptor for the world's second largest country. We should invest in both F-35s for combat support and T-50s for a next-generation stealth superiority fighter.

But of course we can't buy Russian, they're the evil commies that wanted to nuke us for the past 60 years... better trust the Americans without any common sense or consent

reply to post by RichardPrice

Yeah thats probably the truth of it. I was thinking our techies can fix anything with nothing like always... then eventually we would have them fixed into something uniquely Canadian. Since our government won't do the right thing and go made in Canada in the first place...

Hell, for that many billions buy the damn factory send the Rus a royalty check and do the rest here.





[edit on 16-7-2010 by Danbones]

Originally posted by RichardPrice

Originally posted by Rook1545
I would have preferred the F-22, but apparently only Israel can get those.

Israel cannot purchase the F-22, it does not have an exception to the law that forbids the F-22 from being sold to foreign countries.

You were right, sorry, this was where I got my info, and assumed that it had gone ahead.

To date, the US government has clamped an embargo on the sale of the aircraft to foreign countries. But on Wednesday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert reportedly raised the issue with President George Bush in Washington. Other talks have taken place in recent months at the Defense Ministry-Pentagon level. According to defense sources, the Pentagon might be inclined to change its mind and allow a sale to Israel, particularly in light of the looming nuclear threat from Iran.

About repairs to the Russian equipment. I wouldn't be too worried about it. I am sure the mechanics up here could figure out. They seem to be pretty good with duct tape

It pains me to see America peddle such garbage as the F-35.

Here's the deal - it does have a lot of advanced capabilities with regards to avionics and electronic warfare capabilities. It's not much different than the F-16E contracted and subsidized by the UAE, in that respect. However, the F-16 is a far more competent airframe.

Buying the F-35 for its avionics package is like buying a supercharged Corolla with a winch mounted to the front. The supercharger and winch are useful (though not necessarily together) - but it's not really placed onto something that can make use of either.

Canada would have done better to go with the F-18E/F. You've got more range, thrust/weight, and larger payloads with very similar electronic capabilities with better aerodynamic performance. For less, and with an established line for maintenance and the potential for local production.

While some have mentioned the 22 - it's not what Canada needs, really. The aircraft is too finicky in its maintenance requirements and far too specialized for Canada to look at purchasing as a force replacement. If they were looking to supplement their existing strike fighters with an air superiority fighter - then, the 22 would be an option (though likely with far too high of a price tag and too much of a hassle with maintenance). But you're not going to be able to field enough F-22s to fill the current arsenal and mission requirements.

The only other practical option would be the F-15E or F-15SE - less of a ground-support role than the F-18E, but a more competent air superiority and rapid-strike platform.

The F-15E, however, is - really - the best choice for Canada with regards to integrating it into their arsenal. It provides upgraded mission capabilities without making radical changes to how the aircraft fit into the bigger mission picture. Going with the F-35 will change a lot of how they have to use their aircraft - so would going with aircraft like the F-15E/SE.

But, it appears politicians in Canada have been wooed by the F-35 (like U.S. politicians) for reasons I cannot possibly begin to understand. It makes no sense to me... but - I'm not in charge.

This is weird, there were Youtube videos of the Arrow, and now they are GONE!! Anybody have links? I saw videos of them fly, WTF?? Something is wrong here!

Originally posted by TortoiseKweek
This is weird, there were Youtube videos of the Arrow, and now they are GONE!! Anybody have links? I saw videos of them fly, WTF?? Something is wrong here!

More then willing to help you sort out your issue but it is not really on topic with this thread. Feel free to PM myself.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Tactically, like in a strike mission, the F-35s VTOL capabilities will become very useful in CF strike missions.

Again to be clear the Canadian F-35 will be CTOL not VTOL.