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'Suicide' Billboard Along NJ Highway Sparks Uproar

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posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by Aresh Troxit
 

Understood. In cases of terminal illness, it's a personal and private decision and it's best left that way. There should be NO laws, either for or against it. If a friend or physician chooses to assist or advise, if asked, that is a matter of confidentiality. People do it everyday, and no one is the wiser. It's only when others butt in that the trouble starts. It's none of anybody else's business.

Like elf said, if or when I ever find myself in that situation, I'm making sure I get to choose when and how I go. The horror is in finding yourself unprepared or unable to take steps or to find someone who will make sure your wishes are carried out if there's a sudden change.

I'm glad your brother's quality of life has gotten better. It is a very scary thing to face debilitating illness and to watch your loved ones suffer from it.


[edit on 7/15/2010 by ~Lucidity]




posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 09:54 PM
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Here are some statistics about assisted suicide in Oregon

Oregon's Assisted Suicide Stats



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by Aresh Troxit
 


I dont disagree with you that there needs to be access to good medical care. But that is a separate issue.

For myself, if I am in intractable pain, it does not make my suffering any less if there is a treatment and no way for me to get it. Obviously, the best scenario is that those suffering should be provided with the means to cure it or treat it if that exists.

But there is a limit to the amount of pain anyone should have to endure while waiting for something that may never come, and that choice should be theirs. Not ours. In my opinion. If I am in the middle of a jungle with someone and we are lost, and they are in agony, guts hanging out, even if I feel that a doctor could fix them, if I am pretty sure no doctor is available, and I cannot move them myself, and cannot know if we are ever going to be found, if they ask me for my gun, I will give it to them.

Death is a certainty. Its not a matter of "if" its a matter of "when" and "how" and so I dont feel I would have the right to tell them, "Well, there is a tiny possibility a doctor will stumble across us, and if he did, he could fix you." Its not my life, its not my suffering, and its not my death. Its theirs and as I see it, between their God and them.

Now if a doctor was on the way, I would not give them my gun. I would insist we wait for the pain meds. And treatment. The mere existence of a cure is not the issue for me, if the person has no access to it. If they have no access to it, there is a point, where making them wait and suffer goes beyond caring into something darker and more selfish.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


I understand those who will and want to end their life if they are suffering. I am not sure I fully support that but I do understand that.

In my case it was my grandfather who decided the drink was more important than family, which led him to drunken depression. That was when I was 4 ½ I am on my way to 35. I do not think of him in anger only a sad disgust in the fact that he was selfish and could not take being without his drink. I used to be bothered by it now I can only dismiss him as being not worth a real thought other than a lesson in life.

I am sorry your brother ended his life as well. It does a lot to the family you are correct in that. Those who end their life simply because “it is too hard” or whatever really do not see the trouble and difficulty they will cause those around them. I often wonder if they care or if they are too caught up in their own little world to think of others. It certainly has a lasting effect on those affected, after all it has been 30 years since my grandfather ended his life and look at how I think of those who do it for selfish reasons. I also recall the good times I had with him (amazing some of the stuff I recall), but his choice was not the right choice.


I hope your journey in life is a good one as well. Life eases the pains we feel with time, but they lessons we learn from that pain remain with us forever.

Raist



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by Raist
Those who end their life simply because “it is too hard” or whatever really do not see the trouble and difficulty they will cause those around them. I often wonder if they care or if they are too caught up in their own little world to think of others.


I dont know your grandfather, so I cant say for him, but my brother was a good guy. Very young, 20, and so did not have the life experience to choose better. But he was not someone who ever tried to hurt anyone. Not anything. He was so soft hearted. Although he was wrong, very wrong, I think he felt everyone would be better off without him. (Our mother blamed us children for ruining her life.)

I think the "why" and how they intend it is different for everyone. Some people commit suicide to punish people they think have let them down. It is intended to hurt. Others do get lost in their world, and some, like my brother, think the world is better off without them.

You were so young. I am sure that was very hard, and very confusing. No matter how they intend it, it causes enormous pain for those who love them.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


Obviously, I was talking about medicines that were already available, but not shared for monetary reasons. The friend of my brother who was denied the medicine that made him "whole" again is only 40.

You can't say it is a separate issue when we see politicians put our money in their pockets and their friend's...

Before the parents of my ex died, they were put on morphine, to alleviate the pain. But morphine has this tendency of slowing your body functions until there are no more. Assisted suicide is already practiced. Silently.

So I think that before analyzing the person who wants deliberate assisted suicide, we should look if there are options, and why they are denied.

I understand the jungle analogy, but you know there are people that did great things despite their conditions. Assisted suicide will kill a part of it means to be human.

Again, let's not be too quick to precipitate someone in death, or to allow for it to happen in a desire to alleviate death.

Because under those rules, I would have been died long ago. As a kid, I flirted with death so many times, it would have been easy to alleviate me...



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 10:52 PM
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I never understood why assisted suicide is illegal in cases of terminally ill persons. There is nothing more horrific than watching a loved one literally rot away from cancer or some other disease. Who would choose a slow and painful death over quick and painless one? Not me. But that's what we expect these people to do. And for what? Death awaits us all regardless. If their family had any ounce of sympathy for their situation they would respect their decision and pray that god welcome them with open arms or that they rest in peace for eternity or until the next life: which ever you believe.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by ZuluChaka
reply to post by SUICIDEHK45
 


I think people that are pro suicide are idiots, state supported, dr supported, or otherwise. However, I do support their right to free speech and their right to promote their cause.


I am far from being an "idiot"

As another poster has experienced (sorry for your pain too) I watched my mother die slowly and painfully of Liver Cancer when I was in my early 20's.
I heard her asking the nurse to give her an overdose. Half the time she didn't know me and my sisters were in the room, and the rest of the time she was in complete agony.

I am REALLY trying hard not to type some pretty obscene remarks in response to your opinion here. But I will say that I hope you are never in such a position.

It seems to me the only people who are against assisted suicide or the right to die with dignity have never actually experienced watching a relative die a slow and agonising death.

Either that or they're arrogant religious nut-jobs who think they have the right to dictate how others live and die.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 11:06 PM
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I think its pretty pitiful honestly. Yes I know pain and suffering and all that. I'm not claiming to have answers, but I'm not on board a state that lets people kill themselves. There are methods to kill pain in mostly any situation. The problem is not in allowing it, the problem is where does it lead a generation from now?

Thats far more a concern for me. Suffering has been the cause of medical development since the birth of medicine. If it becomes acceptable that those in pain can give up, what happens to those suffering just a bit?

I remember the movie Children of men where they basically advertised suicide for a world that was going to end anyway. Total giving up. The world wasn't exactly all that great. When faced with a problem of certain extinction, rather than resist, the pain caused everyone to give up.

That's why I think its pitiful. be weary of thinking pain is bad. Pain is pain. It is but an impulse from the brain. A feeling. Electricity. something to respond to and fix, not terminate.

I think its just part of the general "give up" life style I see all around.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 11:15 PM
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Is this billboard any more offensive than the billboard's that advertise Asian spas? Or strip clubs? Or how about the billboards in New York that are over 20 feet tall showing men and women in lingerie?



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 11:26 PM
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reply to post by filosophia
 


Many wrongs do not make a right,

They make a larger wrong.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
I think its pretty pitiful honestly. Yes I know pain and suffering and all that. I'm not claiming to have answers, but I'm not on board a state that lets people kill themselves. There are methods to kill pain in mostly any situation. The problem is not in allowing it, the problem is where does it lead a generation from now?

Thats far more a concern for me. Suffering has been the cause of medical development since the birth of medicine. If it becomes acceptable that those in pain can give up, what happens to those suffering just a bit?

I remember the movie Children of men where they basically advertised suicide for a world that was going to end anyway. Total giving up. The world wasn't exactly all that great. When faced with a problem of certain extinction, rather than resist, the pain caused everyone to give up.

That's why I think its pitiful. be weary of thinking pain is bad. Pain is pain. It is but an impulse from the brain. A feeling. Electricity. something to respond to and fix, not terminate.

I think its just part of the general "give up" life style I see all around.


I don't think this is about "just people in pain." This is about terminally ill patients who will die, most in a matter of months if not weeks or even days. Try telling those people, where medicine cannot comfort them, that the pain they're enduring is just a electrical impulse in their brain. I'm sure that'll help them finally get a good night rest. But, I suppose it's just their pitiful way of giving up, as if we have any moral authority to justify what a person does with their own life.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by filosophia
 


It is paid by an organization led by a psychologist. Aren't they suppose to help you deal with all that goes with death, in part?

He asks for the euthanasia of Alzheimer's patients... But the source of the problem is still there. Aluminum is used for food storage, even in microwave today, even tho we know aluminum is the cause for Alzheimer's.

How many death is considered offensive, then?

People are too quick to want the death of their loved ones! And the fact people don't want to see another one suffer is also selfish, because when a love one suffer, so do we!

I know there are insoluble health problems. I know some get born in such a way that even tho we call them alive, we can only doubt about the presence of any kind of consciousness.

We all suffer on different levels almost constantly. And what doesn't kill us only makes us stronger. And if we refuse to live our lives, or deny another one's, there will be no more reasons for the human race to live as we would destroy a part of what makes us human.

Stephen Hawkins should die, then. Ringo should have been left to die. Terry Fox also. Who else?

Maybe we should only have perfect models? Oh, wait, they are on the other billboard!


-----

Contrary to the appearances, I am not against assisted suicide as such. We just are not mature enough as a specie to deal with it properly.

Heck, we can't even feed our own specie properly...



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 11:40 PM
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reply to post by xEphon
 


There is no moral justification because morals are made up flaws of man. There is logical scientific need to see any weakness anywhere in a disease and the need to heal. There's a way to solve any pain. Be is cannabis or some other drug or whatever. Pain IS just an impulse. And impulses can be blocked.

There are rare cases of people recovering when almost all is lost and to know why for those thought terminally ill who turn out not to be, research is priceless.

Again, in addition to that, starting down this road holds unknown futures. The violent eugenics movements of centuries past started for the same seemingly good reason.

One cannot think one generation. Decay is the nature of things, and decay of care will occur. A generation growing up seeing terminally ill people getting the boot if they want could grow into forcing it.

There is some evidence that assisted suicide can develop non-voluntary euthanasia. Europe is usually a bit ahead on these matters and there is a growing concern about these things, including the ok to kill babies that are born with sever mutations.

Again, I am much more concerned with what the next generation does, and the next one after that. So on and so forth.

At the risk of a strawman fallacy, we here in America have gone silent on the wrongs of our government, and so the government over generation just grows and grows.

It's slow decay versus shocking fast decay. It does happen.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 11:49 PM
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jeez, this is almost as bad as charging people with "attempted suicide" if they try and fail.

If someone wants to die, then let them. If they cannot do it themselves, it should be allowed for them to ask for assitance and get it with full protection for the person helping. It shouldn't matter if the person is 100% healthy or terminally ill. It is their vessel they are leaving. It is their consequence they must face.

As for the people they leave behind, would it be any differant if they had a blowout on the highway and careened into a bridge at high speed? In both cases they are both dead.

As for those who say suicide is selfish, I disagree. The selfishness is the part of those left behind who believe that for some reason they were entitled to have some say in the way a person managed their physical form.

Ok, so now that I have probably pissed off a few people, I suppose I should explain my point of view. I don't believe that death is the end of anything aside from the physical body that we inhabit. Our energy or spirit, whatever you prefer to call it, continues to exist. Thus we are simply returning the earth to the earth and moving on. Not much differant from loggin off of the computer at night and going into the other room to watch a movie.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 11:55 PM
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reply to post by rogerstigers
 


But most of the time it's just that "I don't care" attitude that is making them want to die.

Maybe I sound like a socialist, but you should definably try to be your brother's keeper.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by Aresh Troxit


Again, let's not be too quick to precipitate someone in death, or to allow for it to happen in a desire to alleviate death.


I hope I havent given the impression I think it should be something undertaken lightly. I dont. Nor do I think anyone should have the final say but the person whose life it is. (No one should be allowed to say that someone else should be euthanized.)

And yes we need to address access to medical care and treatment. I say it is a separate issue because as I see it, it is. Its something that needs to be addressed, and no one should have to choose to die because they lack access to available meds, but if they really cant have them in a reasonable time frame, I dont see the point in letting them suffer. I am only for assisted suicide if there is no treatment fortchcoming that can alleviate extreme suffering in a reasonable time frame. I just dont believe someone in agony should be asked to wait 5 years while the court battles about it if they do not want to suffer that long.

I dont know if you have ever been in agony. But I have. Twice. I was treated and fixed, and given meds to alleviate my pain until I was fixed. But if that was the state I would have been in forever, with no hope of relief, I wouldnt have wanted to live that way. Excruciating pain is all consuming. You cant enjoy anything else. I couldnt even sleep, in the first instance. Even with drugs, until they operated. After that, it was just a matter of time, healing and physical therapy, and the pain was manageable. Not all pain is equal.


And, my agony, as bad as it was, was nothing compared to the neighbor I watched die of kidney cancer three years ago. He was heavily medicated, (morphine) and his eyes were still wild with pain, (literally, he looked like a trapped animal) and the last word I heard him say was "pain." (He was so drugged he could barely talk, and still he was talking about his pain) No one should have to live like that. He was in his 80s. There was no chance he could pull out of it. He should have had help, he asked for it. His wife couldnt bring herself to overdose him, but she would have allowed it if a professional would have. (Shes Catholic, and afraid of hell)

But please, dont think that I feel that just any old person with pain should be put to sleep. I really dont. Not at all. I just think that when there really is no remedy, that just letting someone suffer until their body shuts down is pointless. And I think THAT damages our humanity.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by Gorman91
 


I do not have any issue with anyone trying to convice someone that they should look on the bright side and try to help them over their hump, if possible. In fact, I think it is very honorable to do whatever you can to help people out while they are alive. However, if they *choose* to die, what right does anyone have to interfere?



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


Don't worry, I think we are on the same page, but with some words different here and there!


And if you read back my previous post, the removal of half my wrist was painful. 3 days without medication and sleep and 5 days without eating. The doc told me it was one of the most painful surgery available.

I still hear the hammer coming down to remove the bones.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by FortAnthem
Allowing assisted suicides can lead to dangerous things:


"Over the past two decades," Hendin continued, "the Netherlands has moved from assisted suicide to euthanasia, from euthanasia for the terminally ill to euthanasia for the chronically ill, from euthanasia for physical illness to euthanasia for psychological distress and from voluntary euthanasia to nonvoluntary and involuntary euthanasia. Once the Dutch accepted assisted suicide it was not possible legally or morally to deny more active medical (assistance to die), i.e. euthanasia, to those who could not effect their own deaths. Nor could they deny assisted suicide or euthanasia to the chronically ill who have longer to suffer than the terminally ill or to those who have psychological pain not associated with physical disease. To do so would be a form of discrimination. Involuntary euthanasia has been justified as necessitated by the need to make decisions for patients not [medically] competent to choose for themselves" (Hendin, 1996). Hendin describes how, for a substantial number of people in the Netherlands, physicians have ended their patients' lives without consultation with the patients.

Source


You also have to wonder what happens to your life insurance policy if you choose to end your suffering early. Most policies won't pay out if someone commits suicide.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that life insurance companies contributed to the funding of those billboards.


That article just seems to be using the slippery slope fallacy to incite fear.



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