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Atheism is actually an advanced theological spiritual technique

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posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 03:50 PM
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From my last 15 years of studies I have found this to be true. That atheism, to a certain extent and only going so far, is the exact same thing as a certain kind of advanced spiritual practice that results in the experience of Objectivity, or God.

Basically it is the same as Apophatic Theology, Negative Theology(ne-gate-ive or to negate), or in Advanced Eastern philosophy is called Neti Neti ...or Not this, Not this.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Basically what one does ....is that one can know what is, by knowing what isn't. SO for example you negate everything, until eventually the final answer to it all reveals itself. Many say the answer is objectivity, and God.

For example any belief you have is just that, a belief which consists of thoughts, ideas, concepts, and is all relative and subjective. Based on that ....concepts, thoughts, and ideas are not concrete. They are instead representations of what might or might not be actual.

So in the process of this technique, as is similar to the Atheist approach of no belief, one gets rid of all beliefs of everything. Its actually quite ingenious because if there really is a God and is unlimited, any thought or belief you have about this being, limits the actual being to a limited thought, belief, concept, idea.

One goes further however, and completely dismisses all of One's own subjective and relative beliefs about all things. That I even exist, that I am human, that I live on a planet, that I am a male. These all of course are also relative and subjective concepts, labels, and ideas.

What eventually results is a sort of explosion of logic, reason, the mind itself into a kind of going beyond all things into a transcendence that leaves the person in a state of being, of objectivity, of what some would say the direct experience of God.

Of course many things can go wrong too. One can completely negate all morals and ethics and feel free to do whatever one wants at the whims of ones instincts, sexual appetites, urges, and any other influential apparatus.

But personally speaking, I find most Atheist only go as far as the unbelief of the Spiritual, deities, the supreme. But the unbelief of everything else never takes place.

Still, I have much respect for atheists only in so far that you are also my brothers and sisters ...and you are so close to finding out the absolute truth. Of course you can argue everything I just said is relative, subjective, and conceptual ....and go right back to being the way you always have been in that current state of yours.

You decide.
Any open comments and discussion is openly welcome




posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
One goes further however, and completely dismisses all of One's own subjective and relative beliefs about all things. That I even exist, that I am human, that I live on a planet, that I am a male. These all of course are also relative and subjective concepts, labels, and ideas.


Well I would agree that atheism is a form of spirituality void of belief, but you lost me when getting to the above paragraph.

Being a male, living on this planet, being a human .. all of these are intersubjective classifications, not merely subjective beliefs. There is certainly knowledge here, and belief is not required.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 03:58 PM
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I think it can be as you say, but only when the technique is in the hands of a mystic or maybe a chaos magician. I think that about 99.999% of atheists are neither of those. :p

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Student X]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by Student X
 



I think it can be as you say, but only when the technique is in the hands of a mystic or maybe a chaos magician. I think that about 99.999% of atheists are not up to that. Too superficial. :p

Lol .....you said it, not me. While I'm open to the possibility and have even met and am friends with some atheists that arent superficial ...I would say that a fair share of them do unfortunately come to the table with it and never go beyond it. But then again we all to a certain extent present ourselves in the cloaks of ego



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by unityemissions
 



Being a male, living on this planet, being a human .. all of these are intersubjective classifications, not merely subjective beliefs. There is certainly knowledge here, and belief is not required.

Those are all "majority agreed upon" subjective labels philosophically speaking.

Everything to a certain extent is atoms. Theoretically were there to exist individuals with microscopes for eyes, all they would see is atoms. If they met you, me, the air, a tree .....it would all be atoms from that point of view. There would be no male, female, human etc. Just atoms.

Would someone see even smaller than that ...it would be quantum strings everywhere.

From the point of view of space ...there is space and spacelessness. From the pint of view of a trillion light years a away ...there is non of this existence.

In that case....... who are we to say that what we have labeled everything as, is true, when its all relative to the human perspective. Meaning if there is only human perspective ...that negates all other perspectives, such as the sun's, the air's, the sky's, a bug's, etc

Everything just is. It is without labels. When no one is there to label something ...it is still there and remain label-less, concept-less, without words and with out thoughts. This is true!!!!



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
From my last 15 years of studies I have found this to be true. That atheism, to a certain extent and only going so far, is the exact same thing as a certain kind of advanced spiritual practice that results in the experience of Objectivity, or God.

Basically it is the same as Apophatic Theology, Negative Theology(ne-gate-ive or to negate), or in Advanced Eastern philosophy is called Neti Neti ...or Not this, Not this.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Basically what one does ....is that one can know what is, by knowing what isn't. SO for example you negate everything, until eventually the final answer to it all reveals itself. Many say the answer is objectivity, and God.

For example any belief you have is just that, a belief which consists of thoughts, ideas, concepts, and is all relative and subjective. Based on that ....concepts, thoughts, and ideas are not concrete. They are instead representations of what might or might not be actual.

So in the process of this technique, as is similar to the Atheist approach of no belief, one gets rid of all beliefs of everything. Its actually quite ingenious because if there really is a God and is unlimited, any thought or belief you have about this being, limits the actual being to a limited thought, belief, concept, idea.

One goes further however, and completely dismisses all of One's own subjective and relative beliefs about all things. That I even exist, that I am human, that I live on a planet, that I am a male. These all of course are also relative and subjective concepts, labels, and ideas.

What eventually results is a sort of explosion of logic, reason, the mind itself into a kind of going beyond all things into a transcendence that leaves the person in a state of being, of objectivity, of what some would say the direct experience of God.

Of course many things can go wrong too. One can completely negate all morals and ethics and feel free to do whatever one wants at the whims of ones instincts, sexual appetites, urges, and any other influential apparatus.

But personally speaking, I find most Atheist only go as far as the unbelief of the Spiritual, deities, the supreme. But the unbelief of everything else never takes place.

Still, I have much respect for atheists only in so far that you are also my brothers and sisters ...and you are so close to finding out the absolute truth. Of course you can argue everything I just said is relative, subjective, and conceptual ....and go right back to being the way you always have been in that current state of yours.

You decide.
Any open comments and discussion is openly welcome


All belief is a form of limitation.-John Lilly,md

Atheism is disbelief which is a form of belief. Atheism is thus not a spiritual practice but a inverted religious one.
Belief is also not a spiritual practice.

Agnosticism is no belief. But agnosticism is not a spiritual practice because there is no actual practice going on. There is no examining of consciousness.

Life is Seeking or Understanding Seeking.






[edit on 15-7-2010 by RRokkyy]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by RRokkyy
 

That's why I said atheism is "to a certain extent" similar to an advanced spiritual practice. In that in Negation ...the first step is to get rid of all beliefs and see whats left.....

Right on. Thanks for adding to the thread



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by unityemissions
 



Being a male, living on this planet, being a human .. all of these are intersubjective classifications, not merely subjective beliefs. There is certainly knowledge here, and belief is not required.

Those are all "majority agreed upon" subjective labels philosophically speaking.


Okay, an easier way of saying that is intersubjective, but whatever floats your boat.


Originally posted by dominicus
Everything to a certain extent is atoms. Theoretically were there to exist individuals with microscopes for eyes, all they would see is atoms. If they met you, me, the air, a tree .....it would all be atoms from that point of view. There would be no male, female, human etc. Just atoms.


I really get eeked when people think like this. It's so incredibly illogical. Okay, there are different scopes of existence. Agreed. One existing within the other does not in any way negate either ones existence. From a larger scope, humans seems nonexistent, and only large celestial bodies are apparent. And what? This is faulty reasoning.


Originally posted by dominicus
Would someone see even smaller than that ...it would be quantum strings everywhere.

From the point of view of space ...there is space and spacelessness. From the pint of view of a trillion light years a away ...there is non of this existence.


There is no spacelessness. There is only space-time. Again, you're using a logical fallacy. We can't possibly know of the POV of a trillion light years out, or even that this point in space exists and can be observed. As our knowledge currently is, it seems irrational to make such an assumption.


Originally posted by dominicus
In that case....... who are we to say that what we have labeled everything as, is true, when its all relative to the human perspective. Meaning if there is only human perspective ...that negates all other perspectives, such as the sun's, the air's, the sky's, a bug's, etc


There is no truth or untruth to labels, there is only truth to the meaning and function behind what it is we label. We do misinterpret meaning and function of subjects and objects, and are constantly working to better our understandings of what is.

Why are you saying anything about only human perspective
every living creature has their own perspective. Perspective does not equate to reality. Reality is both intersubjective and interobjective.


Originally posted by dominicus
Everything just is. It is without labels. When no one is there to label something ...it is still there and remain label-less, concept-less, without words and with out thoughts. This is true!!!!


Do you realize that labels are the reason I'm able to communicate with you right now??? Do you realize that every word is a label? A judgment of consensus on how to verbally express what we intend to mean? Without labels, we'd not ever have evolved to be the intelligent beings we are today.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:26 PM
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We do not need the fear of hell or the glory of heaven to entice us into right or wrong. Our very nature, our morals and social alignment is based on an intelligent reasonable attitude to our reality.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by mr-lizard
 




We do not need the fear of hell or the glory of heaven to entice us into right or wrong. Our very nature, our morals and social alignment is based on an intelligent reasonable attitude to our reality.

yeah but that reasonable attitude to your reality is relative to the time, culture, society, and geography of where you live in. So it changes with the times ...there is no solidity except to the fact that there will always be some sort of relative morality construct that differs amongst the many.

My point was misconstrued. I was saying that in the event of negation ....you even negate your own principles, you negate yourself ...to such a point one can then say there are no morals and values.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:39 PM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


that is a great op whether i agree with all of it or not. s&f.

sometimes i wonder if atheists made god in their image, but god provided atheists with that image to begin with...

nice thread dominicus,
et



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by mr-lizard
 




We do not need the fear of hell or the glory of heaven to entice us into right or wrong. Our very nature, our morals and social alignment is based on an intelligent reasonable attitude to our reality.

yeah but that reasonable attitude to your reality is relative to the time, culture, society, and geography of where you live in. So it changes with the times ...there is no solidity except to the fact that there will always be some sort of relative morality construct that differs amongst the many.

My point was misconstrued. I was saying that in the event of negation ....you even negate your own principles, you negate yourself ...to such a point one can then say there are no morals and values.


But it isn't because reality is constant. We are aware of the intricaties of the past and the constant struggle of faith trying to carve a hole into the future.

Don't forget it's us guys who have to sit back and watch the religious folk blow holes into the universe - Ever since the egyptian, pagan, greek, babylonian, norse Gods all forced us mortals into eternal warfare... and boy did they pay....

All religion has ever done is kill off Gods...



[edit on 15-7-2010 by mr-lizard]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 04:55 PM
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No, atheism is an opinion about whether any gods exist. It is the opinion that the answer is "no."

That is a belief, if words have meaning.

There is nothing about that belief that promotes or inhibits spiritual development. Atheism does, however, exclude any spiritual practice that involves letting go of all belief, since to be an atheist is exactly to profess a belief, to believe that there is no god.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by eight bits
No, atheism is an opinion about whether any gods exist. It is the opinion that the answer is "no."

That is a belief, if words have meaning.

There is nothing about that belief that promotes or inhibits spiritual development. Atheism does, however, exclude any spiritual practice that involves letting go of all belief, since to be an atheist is exactly to profess a belief, to believe that there is no god.


Indeed. And as you mentioned the idea of a spiritual or non-spiritual atheist is irrelevant to the idea of atheism. An atheist is as equally aware of the universe as the most devout Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Sikh/ Buddhist/ Mormon/ Jehova's witness, the only difference is.... We don't have or pretend we have an answer for it.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by unityemissions
 



I really get eeked when people think like this. It's so incredibly illogical. Okay, there are different scopes of existence. Agreed. One existing within the other does not in any way negate either ones existence. From a larger scope, humans seems nonexistent, and only large celestial bodies are apparent. And what? This is faulty reasoning.

You get eeked because you've already agreed to live to a certain construct. Illogical is relative, but thats neither here nor there.

What I am saying is for objectivity to be experienced, you would have to completely negate all subjectivity. The when objectivity is experienced ...there is still subjectivity and objectivity versus just subjectivity which is right now for almost all people.

Faulty reasoning is also relative. We just need to understand each other better because I see no faulty reasoning in mine nor your arguments.



There is only space-time. Again, you're using a logical fallacy. We can't possibly know of the POV of a trillion light years out, or even that this point in space exists and can be observed. As our knowledge currently is, it seems irrational to make such an assumption.

There is only space time is relative. There could be only a bunch of things besides space time. Objectivity however is not relative. Even to say we can't know the POV of a trillion light years away ....thats all concepts and ideas. You've already made an absolute conclusion and thats impossible because maybe 1,000 years down the line we can have this POV. Maybe in objectivity we can have this POV.

Negation is the destruction of all things we think we know. Nothing is therefor concrete except both object/subjectivity.


There is no truth or untruth to labels, there is only truth to the meaning and function behind what it is we label. We do misinterpret meaning and function of subjects and objects, and are constantly working to better our understandings of what is.

How can you say there is truth to the meaning and function behind what is we label if its all different to each person, i.e. relative. For example there is a man who says that the illusion of this reality is that we are separate from each other, that we separate what is ...into people, places, things ... when really what is, just is on its own.

That means 99.9999999999% of the populace, "are constantly working to better our understanding of what is"

and 00.00000000001% of the populace says that there is no such thing as "our understanding".

Does the majority rule? Not necessarily,


Reality is both intersubjective and interobjective.

Ok cool. Agreed.


Do you realize that labels are the reason I'm able to communicate with you right now??? Do you realize that every word is a label? A judgment of consensus on how to verbally express what we intend to mean? Without labels, we'd not ever have evolved to be the intelligent beings we are today.

Yes ...thats my point. To negate all labels and see what remains. Whats left over just is ...and in that Isness there are more things reveled. There is a freedom there from constructs, judgments, labels, the way we live our lives with all our BS problems.

Of course we use all labels for communication purposes, however these labels are not the actual. Anything you say, think, feel, or conceptualize about a given thing ....is not the given thing .....it is representation. The same stands for all of reality.

We live in the constructs, prisons, chains of labels. We get wrapped up in them, and this is the cause of all of our issues. The unexamined life!!!



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by mr-lizard
 



But it isn't because reality is constant. We are aware of the intricaties of the past and the constant struggle of faith trying to carve a hole into the future.

Yea reality is constant and changes constantly as do morals and ethics. I bet you $100 bucks your morals and ethics are different than even 5 years ago, and will be different when you are an old man.

To me, based on this philosophy of negation, the past just just a bunch of ideas and thoughts about what once happened. When the things happened in the past, they happened in the moment that they happened. After that all your left with is limited and fuzzy concepts of what that moment was like. Again thoughts clouding the actual, the real, reality.

And faith, again just a concept. Although I might ask, do you have faith in yourself? You know certain things to be true do you not? And if so, do you have faith in this knowledge? Do you use faith in any other area of your life besides in the religious context?


Don't forget it's us guys who have to sit back and watch the religious folk blow holes into the universe - Ever since the egyptian, pagan, greek, babylonian, norse Gods all forced us mortals into eternal warfare... and boy did they pay....

All ideas, concepts, and beliefs ....non of which you except so why should it move you in one way or another am I right?



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 05:18 PM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


I think it's best we just agree to disagree.

What you are attempting to promote, whether you're conscious of this or not, is psychopathy, or absolute freedom.

There is very good reason that we've developed concepts, judgments, and labels.

If you would like to be an animal devoid of these abilities, you go right ahead.

Since you obviously have not made this step, yet try to teach it, you're just another hypocrite.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 05:50 PM
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The difference between a person of faith and an athiest...


A person of faith believes without questioning in a deity without any proof whatsoever.
An atheist does not have faith. You can compare them with a post stamp collector that does not own any stamps. He is not a collector at all.

An athiest can be spiritual but he does not believe in the existence of any deity.
Not believing is not a believe. It is a lack of belief which is usually based on personal experience. The minute everybody would stop promoting their believe and acting to that believe the athiest cease to exist. There is no need to try and talk some sense into a believer when they do not act in a harmful and/or annoying way because of their believe.

Ethics and moral have absolutely nothing to do with religion and ethics and moral look like they were extremely low on the old testament.

Your years of study have been a waste. I'm sorry to tell you this, but you do not even understand the difference. That is not a bad thing. There are only a few believers capable of seeing the difference.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by unityemissions
 



I think it's best we just agree to disagree.

Thats fine.


What you are attempting to promote, whether you're conscious of this or not, is psychopathy, or absolute freedom.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!! Absolute freedom!!!!! Bingo. Freedom from this illusion, from the limits we set on ourselves, freedom from all our psychological habits, from slavery to lust, to thought, to molds and cycles.

I have 3,000 years of theology and philosophy to back this up, i.e. negate-ive theology and neti neti. The most brilliant minds used this to free themselves and they say they resulting experience was Absolute God .....devoid of labels, concepts, ideas!!!!! i.e. absolute truth, pure objectivity.


There is very good reason that we've developed concepts, judgments, and labels.

Yeah for the sake of language ...then we got lost in it and became limited and became what we think ourselves to be. I'd rather pass on that. I want absolute truth no matter the cost!!!!


If you would like to be an animal devoid of these abilities, you go right ahead.

Again you put a conclusion on what will remain. Are you sure thats what happens? A stupor down to the level of animals and devoid of abilities, or are those just projections?

Perhaps the result is no longer being an animal and all abilities.


Since you obviously have not made this step, yet try to teach it, you're just another hypocrite.

How do you know this? Are you sure this is true. What if I have seen and glimpsed what is there devoid of all constructs, ideas, beliefs, thoughts? What if what was seen there ...is absolute freedom and a better state then the ones lived in constructs agreed upon by the masses?

And if thats the case....if absolute freedom is there ....then it would seem you have already judged it and mind your mind not to have it yourself.

Free will!!!! Or is there?



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
The difference between a person of faith and an athiest...


A person of faith believes without questioning in a deity without any proof whatsoever.
An atheist does not have faith. You can compare them with a post stamp collector that does not own any stamps. He is not a collector at all.

An athiest can be spiritual but he does not believe in the existence of any deity.
Not believing is not a believe. It is a lack of belief which is usually based on personal experience. The minute everybody would stop promoting their believe and acting to that believe the athiest cease to exist. There is no need to try and talk some sense into a believer when they do not act in a harmful and/or annoying way because of their believe.

Ethics and moral have absolutely nothing to do with religion and ethics and moral look like they were extremely low on the old testament.

Your years of study have been a waste. I'm sorry to tell you this, but you do not even understand the difference. That is not a bad thing. There are only a few believers capable of seeing the difference.



As Doestoevsky put it, The atheist is closer to god than the agnostic because disbelief is a form of belief.

He was wrong in that neither is close to god.
Life is Seeking or Understanding Seeking.
Nobody understand this,yet it explains everything.



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