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Originally posted by dominicus
One goes further however, and completely dismisses all of One's own subjective and relative beliefs about all things. That I even exist, that I am human, that I live on a planet, that I am a male. These all of course are also relative and subjective concepts, labels, and ideas.
I think it can be as you say, but only when the technique is in the hands of a mystic or maybe a chaos magician. I think that about 99.999% of atheists are not up to that. Too superficial. :p
Being a male, living on this planet, being a human .. all of these are intersubjective classifications, not merely subjective beliefs. There is certainly knowledge here, and belief is not required.
Originally posted by dominicus
From my last 15 years of studies I have found this to be true. That atheism, to a certain extent and only going so far, is the exact same thing as a certain kind of advanced spiritual practice that results in the experience of Objectivity, or God.
Basically it is the same as Apophatic Theology, Negative Theology(ne-gate-ive or to negate), or in Advanced Eastern philosophy is called Neti Neti ...or Not this, Not this.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
Basically what one does ....is that one can know what is, by knowing what isn't. SO for example you negate everything, until eventually the final answer to it all reveals itself. Many say the answer is objectivity, and God.
For example any belief you have is just that, a belief which consists of thoughts, ideas, concepts, and is all relative and subjective. Based on that ....concepts, thoughts, and ideas are not concrete. They are instead representations of what might or might not be actual.
So in the process of this technique, as is similar to the Atheist approach of no belief, one gets rid of all beliefs of everything. Its actually quite ingenious because if there really is a God and is unlimited, any thought or belief you have about this being, limits the actual being to a limited thought, belief, concept, idea.
One goes further however, and completely dismisses all of One's own subjective and relative beliefs about all things. That I even exist, that I am human, that I live on a planet, that I am a male. These all of course are also relative and subjective concepts, labels, and ideas.
What eventually results is a sort of explosion of logic, reason, the mind itself into a kind of going beyond all things into a transcendence that leaves the person in a state of being, of objectivity, of what some would say the direct experience of God.
Of course many things can go wrong too. One can completely negate all morals and ethics and feel free to do whatever one wants at the whims of ones instincts, sexual appetites, urges, and any other influential apparatus.
But personally speaking, I find most Atheist only go as far as the unbelief of the Spiritual, deities, the supreme. But the unbelief of everything else never takes place.
Still, I have much respect for atheists only in so far that you are also my brothers and sisters ...and you are so close to finding out the absolute truth. Of course you can argue everything I just said is relative, subjective, and conceptual ....and go right back to being the way you always have been in that current state of yours.
You decide.
Any open comments and discussion is openly welcome
Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by unityemissions
Being a male, living on this planet, being a human .. all of these are intersubjective classifications, not merely subjective beliefs. There is certainly knowledge here, and belief is not required.
Those are all "majority agreed upon" subjective labels philosophically speaking.
Originally posted by dominicus
Everything to a certain extent is atoms. Theoretically were there to exist individuals with microscopes for eyes, all they would see is atoms. If they met you, me, the air, a tree .....it would all be atoms from that point of view. There would be no male, female, human etc. Just atoms.
Originally posted by dominicus
Would someone see even smaller than that ...it would be quantum strings everywhere.
From the point of view of space ...there is space and spacelessness. From the pint of view of a trillion light years a away ...there is non of this existence.
Originally posted by dominicus
In that case....... who are we to say that what we have labeled everything as, is true, when its all relative to the human perspective. Meaning if there is only human perspective ...that negates all other perspectives, such as the sun's, the air's, the sky's, a bug's, etc
Originally posted by dominicus
Everything just is. It is without labels. When no one is there to label something ...it is still there and remain label-less, concept-less, without words and with out thoughts. This is true!!!!
We do not need the fear of hell or the glory of heaven to entice us into right or wrong. Our very nature, our morals and social alignment is based on an intelligent reasonable attitude to our reality.
Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by mr-lizard
We do not need the fear of hell or the glory of heaven to entice us into right or wrong. Our very nature, our morals and social alignment is based on an intelligent reasonable attitude to our reality.
yeah but that reasonable attitude to your reality is relative to the time, culture, society, and geography of where you live in. So it changes with the times ...there is no solidity except to the fact that there will always be some sort of relative morality construct that differs amongst the many.
My point was misconstrued. I was saying that in the event of negation ....you even negate your own principles, you negate yourself ...to such a point one can then say there are no morals and values.
Originally posted by eight bits
No, atheism is an opinion about whether any gods exist. It is the opinion that the answer is "no."
That is a belief, if words have meaning.
There is nothing about that belief that promotes or inhibits spiritual development. Atheism does, however, exclude any spiritual practice that involves letting go of all belief, since to be an atheist is exactly to profess a belief, to believe that there is no god.
I really get eeked when people think like this. It's so incredibly illogical. Okay, there are different scopes of existence. Agreed. One existing within the other does not in any way negate either ones existence. From a larger scope, humans seems nonexistent, and only large celestial bodies are apparent. And what? This is faulty reasoning.
There is only space-time. Again, you're using a logical fallacy. We can't possibly know of the POV of a trillion light years out, or even that this point in space exists and can be observed. As our knowledge currently is, it seems irrational to make such an assumption.
There is no truth or untruth to labels, there is only truth to the meaning and function behind what it is we label. We do misinterpret meaning and function of subjects and objects, and are constantly working to better our understandings of what is.
Reality is both intersubjective and interobjective.
Do you realize that labels are the reason I'm able to communicate with you right now??? Do you realize that every word is a label? A judgment of consensus on how to verbally express what we intend to mean? Without labels, we'd not ever have evolved to be the intelligent beings we are today.
But it isn't because reality is constant. We are aware of the intricaties of the past and the constant struggle of faith trying to carve a hole into the future.
Don't forget it's us guys who have to sit back and watch the religious folk blow holes into the universe - Ever since the egyptian, pagan, greek, babylonian, norse Gods all forced us mortals into eternal warfare... and boy did they pay....
I think it's best we just agree to disagree.
What you are attempting to promote, whether you're conscious of this or not, is psychopathy, or absolute freedom.
There is very good reason that we've developed concepts, judgments, and labels.
If you would like to be an animal devoid of these abilities, you go right ahead.
Since you obviously have not made this step, yet try to teach it, you're just another hypocrite.
Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
The difference between a person of faith and an athiest...
A person of faith believes without questioning in a deity without any proof whatsoever.
An atheist does not have faith. You can compare them with a post stamp collector that does not own any stamps. He is not a collector at all.
An athiest can be spiritual but he does not believe in the existence of any deity.
Not believing is not a believe. It is a lack of belief which is usually based on personal experience. The minute everybody would stop promoting their believe and acting to that believe the athiest cease to exist. There is no need to try and talk some sense into a believer when they do not act in a harmful and/or annoying way because of their believe.
Ethics and moral have absolutely nothing to do with religion and ethics and moral look like they were extremely low on the old testament.
Your years of study have been a waste. I'm sorry to tell you this, but you do not even understand the difference. That is not a bad thing. There are only a few believers capable of seeing the difference.