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'Rebirth' Vs. the dualistic consciousness

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posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


Treatise On Resurrection?

Maimonides' "Ma'amar Tehiyyat Hametim"?
Maimonides had become so enveloped by Platonism, that his views conflicted with tradition.

or

Gnostic text "The Treatise on the Resurrection"?
www.gnosis.org...


Both the Zionist rabbis and the anti-Zionist rabbis deny the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.


What does that mean? Zionist rabbis? You mean conservative and orthodox rabbis who support Israel? The Haredi rabbis still support Israel, but disagree with the government. That doesn't make them anti Zionist.
Why does it even matter?


Maimonides did to the Torah and the Prophets what Paul did to the Teaching of Jesus: turned them upside down by appealing to pagan metaphysical philosophy.

"Zionist rabbis" support the state of the Israel--not Israel, the Israel.

The "anti Zionist rabbis" of Neturei Karta look upon the Israel as the "golden calf", an idol, to which blood sacrifice is being made; the blood of Palestinians, the blood of Gazans, the blood of the Lebanese...

And all things remaining the same; soon the blood of the Iranians.

The Treatise On Resurrection I am referring to is the Gnostic document.

Michael Cecil

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]




posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


The Gnostic treatise echoes abit of Ecclesiastes, the world is finite, futile and subjective.

It doesn't disregard resurrection though.

Is the issue you have here the issue of new or old bodies? Thats been a debate for a long time.

It seems to be implied that the bodies are new and different than the bodies we died with. They may even be genderless or asexual.


The "anti Zionist rabbis" of Neturei Karta look upon the Israel as the "golden calf", an idol, to which blood sacrifice is being made; the blood of Palestinians, the blood of Gazans, the blood of the Lebanese...


At first I thought you meant Kararites, but Neturei Karta is a Haredi group, but not a Hasidic group. Their entire argument is based on a part in the Talmud.

The issue with that is that Jews have always lived in the region even after Jerusalem was laid waste by the Romans. In the Tanakh, the dispersed peoples of Judah and Israel begin their immigration home before the coming of the Messiah.

The land freshly filled with large numbers of members of the House of Israel becomes the target of war and strife. There is no peace. There will be none until the coming of the Messiah. Eventually the entire world comes together for a final assault against Israel. It is at this point, that prophecy says G-d will intervene, lay waste to most of the nations on the earth and the Messiah will defeat the worldwide axis that had attacked Israel.

My take on this is Judah, Israel and Edom are all still fighting. The Palestinians and Jews are some of the two most closely related peoples on earth. The conflict between Judah and Israel never was resolved. The conflict between the House of Israel and Edom was never resolved.

Neturei Karta misunderstands this. The nation can exist and was prophesied to exist, becoming a catalyst to the last world war. Peace is the concept that cannot exist until the Messiah, not the country.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


The Gnostic treatise echoes abit of Ecclesiastes, the world is finite, futile and subjective.

It doesn't disregard resurrection though.

Is the issue you have here the issue of new or old bodies? Thats been a debate for a long time.

It seems to be implied that the bodies are new and different than the bodies we died with. They may even be genderless or asexual.


Do you know anything at all about what you are talking?

Anything at all?

Have you even read the Treatise On Resurrection for even so much as 2 minutes?

I suggest that you just try it; to see if you understand even so much as one word of what is being discussed.

I've written dozen of notes about the "resurrection" on one thread or another around here.

If you are interested, I suggest you read some of them or see the information on my web page.

Michael Cecil

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 05:38 PM
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the problem with most religions is what they take literal for what should be metaphor, and metaphor for what should be literal.

I can't easily explain it, because people are so accustomed to thinking that material possessions is the greatest thing on life, when in fact they are imperfect by nature and thus can not give you more than an imperfect happiness. Possessions can be stolen or lost, and the more you have, the more you are able to lose. But wisdom, virtue, and a free mind can not be taken away from you, and they are by nature a more permanent, and thus more perfect form of happiness.

The main problem with reincarnation is the difficulty of assuming that your personality will somehow reincarnate as well. This is all wrong. If your body changes, your personality must also change with it. If our personalities are based on our environment, then whenever we change environments, our personality changes. This happens even while we are alive. And as our body grows older and changes, our personality changes as well, so how could you be the same person if you are reborn as a baby? The personality that comes from the soul is a bit different, it's personality is based more off of virtue and understanding, which is in some sense universal.

Even an atheist has to agree that Nature itself reincarnates, and just because one body dies, it doesn't mean that we no longer exist, but rather it means that Nature creates a new body. Reincarnation is the idea that a single soul can reincarnate through multiple bodies, while retaining memory of each life, this is difficult to believe if you can't actually remember any previous lives, but it happens throughout the stages of life when we go from birth, to teenager, to adult, to old age, we are changing, and we do not always remember every moment of each of those stages, how much more difficult would it be to remember previous lives? Especially if our bodies change, there may be no means by which to remember, only through the eternal circuit that is Nature, meaning it is not remembered as an experienced reality but rather as a potential ideal.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by filosophia the problem with most religions is what they take literal for what should be metaphor, and metaphor for what should be literal.


I did not start this thread for the purpose of discussing either religion or 'rebirth' and certainly not any speculations about 'reincarnation'.

These things are not the topic here.

The topic here is the manner in which the revelation of the memories of previous lives provides evidence of another dimension of consciousness than the "self" or the 'thinker'.

Read the original post.

I am saying that the fundamental motivation of the religious 'authorities' and, ultimately, the media officials is in preserving a dimension of consciousness--I refer to it as the 'fallen' consciousness or the dualistic consciousness--at all costs.

This is not a trivial matter.

They don't care whether the entire civilization is brought down around their ears. They will insist to the day that they die that there are only two dimensions of consciousness: the "self" and the 'thinker'.

And the attempts to preserve the dualistic consciousness against the existence of the third dimension of consciousness and the knowledge which is conveyed by that dimension of consciousness is threatening civilization itself.

I have no interest in your speculations about what may or may not be the problem with any doctrine of 'reincarnation'. It is not in any way specifically relevant to what I am talking about here.

I am talking about the psychological mechanism which is pushing and pulling this civilization toward self-annihilation.

For no reason at all.

You might want to look at the details of what I am talking about in the notes on my web page.

Or not.

Michael Cecil



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 07:10 PM
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Michael, how would the knowledge or awareness of this 3rd dimension of consciousness be attained? Through some sort of intellectual process, or via some type of mystical experience (i.e., divine/spiritual revelation, spiritual gnosis, etc.)?

[edit on 16-7-2010 by The Stache]



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 07:37 PM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by The Stache
Michael, how would the knowledge or awareness of this 3rd dimension of consciousness be attained? Through some sort of intellectual process, or via some type of mystical experience (i.e., divine/spiritual revelation, spiritual gnosis, etc.)?

[edit on 16-7-2010 by The Stache]


This is what is so strange about the whole issue.

That dimension of consciousness is experienced quite often, but people are just not aware of its existence and what they are really experiencing.

When you are completely consumed in any activity, completely consumed, you are in that dimension of consciousness beyond both "self" and 'thinker'. When a music writer is composing music, when an artist is painting, when a dancer is completely consumed in the dancing, even when a welder or a carpenter or a mechanic or a nurse is completely consumed in his or her craft, they are in that dimension of consciousness.

It is beyond thought and prior to thought.

There are certain mystical experiences which reveal the existence of that other dimension of consciousness; but one must be quite careful about retaining that kind of thing as an experience of a "self".

Revelation is conveyed by that dimension of consciousness; symbols as in Genesis or the Revelation of John. In that dimension of consciousness there is no fear, although the descent to the level of "self" for even an instant causes problems. Very very difficult to explain. Which is why so much of it can only occur within the context of an oral teaching.

So, I have spent several years on attacking the fundamental assumptions of metaphysical philosophy and the scientific method to demonstrate how the existence of this third dimension of consciousness is regularly and reflexively denied; and, at the same time, that such denials are the most threatening behaviors and thoughts possible with regards to the survival of this civilization.

Michael Cecil



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by MessengerOfTruth888

www.jahtruth.net...


Sorry, but it's really quite easy to debunk what you are saying.

It occurs at the level of thought and theory.

It does not immediately address the structure of consciousness and the origin of the consciousness that is involved in the understanding.

You need to read the writings of J. Krishnamurti where he points out that thought is duality, conflict and violence in and of itself.

Unfortunately, he also 'thinks' that thought is the origin of the duality; when, as I have stated before, the 'movement' of self-reflection is the origin of the duality; which is then only intensified and exacerbated by thought.

Conclusion: You are still involved in the preservation of the dualistic consciousness.

As Thoreau said: "There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."

The root of evil is not thought but the "serpent" 'movement' of self-reflection which gives rise to the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" ("self") which then 'clothes' itself in the thoughts of the 'thinker'.

These things need to be observed rather than 'thought'; which, of course, is addressed at length in the Gospel of Thomas, for example.

Michael Cecil



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by The Stache
Michael, how would the knowledge or awareness of this 3rd dimension of consciousness be attained? Through some sort of intellectual process, or via some type of mystical experience (i.e., divine/spiritual revelation, spiritual gnosis, etc.)?[edit on 16-7-2010 by The Stache]


Let me take another stab at this from the perspective of the intellect rather than experience.

If you read Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, what you will see is that advances are made in science on the basis of challenging the unproven a priori assumptions of previous theories. Look, for example, at the development of the Special Theory of Relativity which questioned the assumption of classical physics with regards to the existence of classical space or an inertial frame of reference which was based upon the theory of the "ether" (the problems with which were revealed by the Michelson-Morley experiment).

What I concluded at one time or another is that the scientific theories about human consciousness are all based upon the metaphysical duality and the assumption that there are only two dimensions of consciousness. And this is also related to the concept of the "observer" and how the definition of the "observer" changes as you go from classical physics to relativity theory (where the observer moves at the velocity of light) to quantum physics (where there is no such sharp differentiation between the observer and the observation).

So, for me, the question became "What is the origin of the metaphysical duality and the thought of the 'thinker'? And, at the same time, "What is the observer which 'observes' that consciousness?

Now, if you turn to the writings of Krishnamurti, you will see that he often talks about "observing" thought. And, once I finally understood what he was talking about, and could "observe" the same things that he was observing, the question then became "What is it that is making these 'observations'? Since there must always be an 'observer' for any observation?

Well, obviously, the 'thinker' cannot observe itself; it can only 'think' about itself. But clearly, neither can the "self" observe itself. And, if you read Character Analysis by Wilhelm Reich, the question arises "What is it that is seeing the character structures of the patient?"

In the Revelation of John, there is the statement "I saw a beast emerge from the sea" (Revelations 13:1) and "then I saw a second beast emerge from the land" (Revelations 13:11)--the "beast of the sea" being an image of the consciousness of the "self" and the "beast from the earth" being an image for the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

So, what is it that sees these different dimensions of consciousness?

That can only be a third dimension of consciousness, which is an "observing consciousness".

Then the question arises "In how many dimensions does the "observing consciousness" exist?

The consciousness of the "self" and the 'thinker' can be observed as existing in a 3-dimensional 'curved' space; but the "observing consciousness" must exist prior to the origin of that 3-dimensional space in order to be able to observe the emergence of the "self" and the 'thinker' in the first place. So that dimension of consciousness cannot be 3-dimensional; it can only be a 2-dimensional 'flat' space consciousness as represented by the emergence of the lights during the initial stages of "Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite"; and as symbolized by the words "I was feeling part of the scenery" in the song Solsbury Hill by Peter Gabriel.

So, from a scientific perspective, my understanding of consciousness was based on The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Character Analysis , The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Science (Burtt), Quantum Physics and Ordinary Language (Bergstein), The Evolution of Physics (Einstein and Infeld), The Denial of Death (Becker), Sickness Unto Death (Kierkegaard), the writings of J. Krisnamurti and the Revelation of John, 2001--A Space Odyssey, Solsbury Hill, and Synchronicity--An Acausal Connecting Principal (Jung); to name only the most important sources.

Michael Cecil

[edit on 17-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]

[edit on 17-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 06:33 AM
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reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


There is still so much mystery surrounding our understanding of Consciousness and how it functions. Maybe this is a result of the suppression of the information you have been talking about. I remember that even learning in depth about "Consciousness" and "Altered States Of Consciousness" left me feeling rather unsatisfied. It's one of those rare areas of Psychology where experts are aware knowledge is severely lacking but don't seem to care too much.

To the OP: which Dimension of Consciousness do you believe the experience of Dreaming might fall under? I get the feeling that Dreams are a sort of "quarantine zone" where we are fully-protected from the influences of others (which obviously contrasts to our vulnerability here in the physical world.)

ETA: In some Dreams, I do get a strong feeling of being an Observer; I can directly experience all of the feelings, sensations, emotions etc. but I am not recognised as the subject by whoever is the actual subject/topic of the Dream. I know that sounds weird, but that's the best way I can explain it.

[edit on 17/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


There is still so much mystery surrounding our understanding of Consciousness and how it functions. Maybe this is a result of the suppression of the information you have been talking about. I remember that even learning in depth about "Consciousness" and "Altered States Of Consciousness" left me feeling rather unsatisfied. It's one of those rare areas of Psychology where experts are aware knowledge is severely lacking but don't seem to care too much.

To the OP: which Dimension of Consciousness do you believe the experience of Dreaming might fall under? I get the feeling that Dreams are a sort of "quarantine zone" where we are fully-protected from the influences of others (which obviously contrasts to our vulnerability here in the physical world.)

ETA: In some Dreams, I do get a strong feeling of being an Observer; I can directly experience all of the feelings, sensations, emotions etc. but I am not recognised as the subject by whoever is the actual subject/topic of the Dream. I know that sounds weird, but that's the best way I can explain it.

[edit on 17/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]


In general, dreams fall under the category of the consciousness of the "self". In this I probably agree with Jung, although my understanding of "self" is probably much broader than his.

If you are talking about lucid dreaming, then we are getting very close to that third dimension of consciousness I am talking about.

But there is a caveat:

The non-dualistic consciousness is really non-dualistic.

That is, it is completely consumed in the information that it conveys.

That is of importance in understanding not only Jung, but the opening passages of the Second Meditation of Descartes.

In any case, the so-called "scientists of consciousness" are almost exclusively focused on the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

They more or less ignore not only Jung; but, also Reich; specifically with regards to the "observer" of that information, and those structures of consciousness.

And the "observing consciousness" of the Buddhists?

Fuggedaboudit.

Michael Cecil


[edit on 17-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 08:14 AM
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Something else I wanted to ask:

After reading through your notes, this is the main idea I have come up with. Please let me know if it is close to your underlying message:

Humanity is trapped in a "make-believe" world because those in power have removed information that might lead us to discover that a New Age (rebirth), as opposed to a Recycled Age (resurrection), awaits us and just needs our collective awareness to transcend. Those holding us back cannot transcend to this Rebirth and keep up in the same Recycled (resurrected) realm so they can maintain control over us. Until we can collectively become aware of the truth, we are doomed to continual recycles of the same illusion.

Is that at all close to the mark?



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Something else I wanted to ask:

After reading through your notes, this is the main idea I have come up with. Please let me know if it is close to your underlying message:

Humanity is trapped in a "make-believe" world because those in power have removed information that might lead us to discover that a New Age (rebirth), as opposed to a Recycled Age (resurrection), awaits us and just needs our collective awareness to transcend. Those holding us back cannot transcend to this Rebirth and keep up in the same Recycled (resurrected) realm so they can maintain control over us. Until we can collectively become aware of the truth, we are doomed to continual recycles of the same illusion.

Is that at all close to the mark?


It is not nearly so maudlin as that.

Briefly, one of the chief weaponizations of the dualistic consciousness is in the Satanic doctrines of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious 'authorities'.

What is the reason for the separation between Judaism and Christianity?

The failure to understand that the Doctrine of "resurrection" was taught by Isaiah, Daniel and Jesus as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

What is the reason for the separation of Islam from Judaism and Christianity?

The failure to understand that Mohammed taught precisely the same Doctrine; being Elijah and John the Baptist 'raised from the dead'.

Now, look at the horrific violence that has been going on in the Middle East for just the past 34 years between and among Jews, Christians and Muslims; while, all of that time, I have been warning people of the theological origin of those conflicts--to no avail. NO avail.

The religious 'authorities' did not care.

Why?

Because the Truth that I informed them of threatened their jobs, their wealth, their health insurance and their pensions. And it threatened the consciousness of the "self" and 'thinker' to be informed that a fundamental Doctrine taught by the prophets had to do with living more than one life.

But, then, the media officials ran to the defense of these religious 'authorities', refusing to publish anything that I sent them.

So, the reason for all of the bloodshed in the Middle East over the past 34 years?

Because the religious 'authorities' and their media accomplices need jobs and money and more money and more money; and need to have a "positive self-image" of themselves as "knowing the truth".

That is why those millions of people have died.

Incredible, huh?

And that is why even more will die.

Incredible, huh?

Michael Cecil

[edit on 17-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


If what you claim is true, then yes it is incredibly disgusting that so many people would collude to cover-up such important information. Humans have the right to be exposed to such critical information, no matter how unpleasant it might be to stomach.

Since you cannot get the media to help you, what is your next move? Will there come a time when this information actually cannot be suppressed any longer? Why does God not intervene and make things right?



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


Since you cannot get the media to help you, what is your next move?


Have you ever heard of the end of the road?

After 34 years, there is nothing left for me to do.

I've done everything I possibly could; losing more than $400,000 in wages because my supervisor was 'offended' by what I had written; spending tens of thousands of dollars more in postage and copying costs and Internet fees and computers; going across country to the Christian Broadcasting Network and Washington, D.C.; going to prison for four months for destroying statues at the gift shop of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception; flying to Jerusalem; attending conferences on theology; sending dozens of faxes to the political officials of the Israel--to NO avail.

No one cared.

Except for one teachers at the Neve Yerushalayim School of Torah for Women in Jerusalem who requested more cassette tapes of my explanation of the Doctrine of "resurrection". (At least I hope she survives the fulfillment of the Prophecies I have received.)


Will there come a time when this information actually cannot be suppressed any longer?


I guess we'll both just have to see.


Why does God not intervene and make things right?


Everything is happening exactly the way it was supposed to happen according to the Prophecies I have received.

All of this is the specific reason why so many millions of people must die.

Michael Cecil



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


Well you have certainly put much time and effort into this. Sorry to hear it has not worked out for you and you have not achieved what you had hoped.

You mentioned this all relates to Prophesy. If this is the case, then aren't your attempts to reveal this information futile? Wouldn't you be playing with fire by trying to alter the destiny of Humanity?



posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


Well you have certainly put much time and effort into this. Sorry to hear it has not worked out for you


Has not worked out for me?

Where did you get that idea?

I did precisely what I was supposed to do.

And, over these past few decades, I came to a fairly clear understanding of the Revelations I first received in 1974-1975.

That is more than anyone could reasonably hope for.


and you have not achieved what you had hoped.


It's much more complicated than that.


You mentioned this all relates to Prophesy. If this is the case, then aren't your attempts to reveal this information futile? Wouldn't you be playing with fire by trying to alter the destiny of Humanity?


All of this is the 'understanding' of only those who have never themselves received a Prophecy, a genuine Prophecy.

It all looks much different from the 'outside' than it does from the inside.

For me this is not a merely theoretical issue that can be bandied about by armchair theologians and philosophers.

It is of the very fabric of my life.

Michael Cecil



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


I don't know where you get your "theology" from.
As for me and my house,we serve the Lord! I will
continue to read my KJV Bible.I will always believe
in the following,no matter what...
1.Jesus/Yeshua was God in flesh.
2.Jesus/Yeshua took the sins of the world upon Himself.
3.Jesus/Yeshua paid our sin debt.
4.Jesus/Yeshua bled and died on the cross.
5.Jesus/Yeshua rose from the dead three days later.
6.Jesus/Yeshua sits at the right hand of God in heaven.
7.Jesus/Yeshua will return again at the appointed time.
Anyone teaches any doctrine other than what I have typed,
is a false teacher!
I have nothing more to say to you ever!



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by mamabeth
I don't know where you get your "theology" from.
As for me and my house,we serve the Lord! I will
continue to read my KJV Bible.I will always believe
in the following,no matter what...
1.Jesus/Yeshua was God in flesh.
2.Jesus/Yeshua took the sins of the world upon Himself.
3.Jesus/Yeshua paid our sin debt.
4.Jesus/Yeshua bled and died on the cross.
5.Jesus/Yeshua rose from the dead three days later.
6.Jesus/Yeshua sits at the right hand of God in heaven.
7.Jesus/Yeshua will return again at the appointed time.
Anyone teaches any doctrine other than what I have typed,
is a false teacher!
I have nothing more to say to you ever!


If I ask you some questions about those beliefs, will you answer me? Otherwise I will have to assume that you lack the ability to think for yourself and are only echoing the beliefs of others.

[edit on 20/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]



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