Mosque At Ground Zero

Originally posted by black cat

Originally posted by SpectreDC

And again, since people can't seem to read, I'll make it very clear again; THE COMMUNITY CENTER ISN'T BEING BUILT RIGHT ON TOP OF THE SITE. IT'S BEING BUILT SEVERAL BLOCKS AWAY.

It doesn't matter! The proximity is so close that this can only be viewed as a victory for radical extremist muslims. Show me where the Islamic ruling body of clerics has publicly denounced the reason for the 9/11 attacks as not true to the real message of Islam and I'll back down.

www.islamagainstterrorism.com...

Considering there really isn't one "Islamic ruling body of clerics", this is the closest you'll get.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


So that's it, then. The terrorists win, either way. If the mosque goes up they will claim that they were so successful in stamping America with Muslim influence that a mosque was built just two blocks from the site of America's greatest terrorist attack. It will be a great "victory" for them. If we don't build the mosque they will claim that they succeeded in making America live in fear, which justifies the 9/11 attacks in their eyes. Great. Just freaking great. I guess we should all get used to wearing traditional Muslim garb and just let them have their way with our country. Our elected leaders obviously don't give a damn anymore, so why should we?

[edit on 15-7-2010 by black cat]

There have been a lot of threads on this and I have refrained from participating in any of them. Mainly due to the fact I can see both sides of it. On one hand, we have the freedom of religion issue (Something I am personally HUGE on). Just because I may personally disapprove of Islam, doesn't mean they do not have religious freedom in our country.

On the other hand, I understand the history of Islamic conquests and what building mosques in certain territories means: A flag of sorts to denote a success over enemies.

I do not believe this is a measure of peace and tolerance, in other words, as it is innocently being portrayed.

All I know to say is to quote the best insight I've seen concerning this issue. And that is: Sensitivity works both ways. While we are asked as a country to be sensitive to Islam, I also ask that Islam be sensitive to our countrymen and not build a mosque in an area that is obviously a sore spot.

Or in other words, although they have a RIGHT to build it there, is it considerate? No. I do not believe so. And I do consider it a slap in the face to those lost in the attacks and an act of Islamic conquest marking its territory.

[edit on 7/15/2010 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by black cat
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

So that's it, then. The terrorists win, either way. If the mosque goes up they will claim that they were so successful in stamping America with Muslim awareness that a mosque was build

Honestly was this humor? Either way it gave me a hearty laugh. thank you for that.

Of all the goals that I have heard attributed to Islamic Extremists, this was the first time I heard...."The terrorists attacked us to stamp America with Muslim Awareness"...

Wow...now the terrorists have really won...I just heard that America believes in "Freedom of Religion"....damn this country is going downhill!!

[edit on 15-7-2010 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by black cat
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

So that's it, then. The terrorists win, either way. If the mosque goes up they will claim that they were so successful in stamping America with Muslim awareness that a mosque was build

Honestly was this humor? Either way it gave me a hearty laugh. thank you for that.

Of all the goals that I have heard attributed to Islamic Extremists, this was the first time I heard...."The terrorists attacked us to stamp America with Muslim Awareness"...

Wow...now the terrorists have really won...I just heard that America believes in "Freedom of Religion"....damn this country is going downhill!!

[edit on 15-7-2010 by maybereal11]

I just edited the post and changed the word "awareness" to "influence" as I agree the use of the previous word didn't fit what I was trying to say. Being an intelligent individual I'm sure you get the gist of what I was trying to say.

reply to post by AshleyD

Well put. I don't believe it's sensitive of them to do this either. But it seems they're doing it, and what can we do but make the best of it and maybe try to turn it into a positive. If radical elements begin congregating there, I trust that law enforcement will do their jobs, just as they would should this mosque or cultural center be located anywhere else.

That being said, what disappoints me most is the very loud reactions to it that are filled with...I don't know how else to put this...hate based on what appears to be illogical fear and exaggeration.

I heard the audio of one report where a woman against the mosque was yelling that murderous Muslims killed over 6,500 Americans on 9/11. That took me back, and is just one example of things that alarm me about where this sort of thing is all coming from and and where it could be going.

reply to post by black cat

They only win if we continue to let them win. I guess I'd have to say I personally judge a "win" more by our reactions and actions, and that a country that stood up for its founding principles and chose to ignore this alleged statement that some only assume the Muslims are making and hold to our core. Again, I'd offer the possibility that they're getting a bigger laugh and more satisfaction about the reaction that just the mere possibility of a mosque here is getting and than they actually would from it's coming to fruition, particularly if we took this with more grace and thought.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Or in other words, although they have a RIGHT to build it there, is it considerate? No. I do not believe so. And I do consider it a slap in the face to those lost in the attacks and an act of Islamic conquest marking its territory.

[edit on 7/15/2010 by AshleyD]

More so than a Christian Church in the Middle East?

How about a US Military Base in thier Holy Land? Now that is planting a flag...literally, along with troops.

These people's territory is the USA, lest we forget they are ours whatever religion they practice.

I think we would be wise to consider all of the above and much more before we declare the geography of a church in the USA insensitive.

Has anyone considered the possibility that this Mosque chose this geography to make a statement to their extremist cousins? Next time you attack remember we are one of them. Arguably ground zero has the potential to be a very likely terrorist target once it is rebuilt. It would be a prize amongst terrorists to strike the same place twice, the second time with the added bonus of all the symbolism the site now holds...near sacred.
Not often talked about, but likely one of the reason for the delay in rebuilding.

These are US Citizens...let them build their Mosque and let them stand with us whatever may come, like the thousands of Muslims serving in the US Military. Anything less IMO is just not the American way.

reply to post by maybereal11

More so than a Christian Church in the Middle East?

Not sure how that is relevant. Christianity originated in the Middle East and existed in the region before Islam was established.

How about a US Military Base in thier Holy Land? Now that is planting a flag...literally, along with troops.

On this one I agree and it is a valid comparison. But you're preaching to the choir in that I'm a hardcore isolationist who would love for us to come back home and leave the rest of the world alone.

Originally posted by black cat
I just edited the post and changed the word "awareness" to "influence" as I agree the use of the previous word didn't fit what I was trying to say. Being an intelligent individual I'm sure you get the gist of what I was trying to say.

I am not as intelligent as you assume. I did not read "awareness" as "influence".

But, yes, that makes the statement less nonsensical, but only slightly so in my opinion.

Al-Qaiada wanted us "Out of the Middle East"...Suadi-Arabia et al.

Strangely enough, I followed terrorism and general associated news stories prior to 9-11. I always have. I think it stems back to childhood illusions of being James Bond I fancied myself an armchair intelligence analyst. That said, when 9-11 happened I was standing in an office full of people watching it on CNN. Many thought it was just an accident until the second plane hit...where upon I immediately said "Osama Bin Laden" followed by several curses. That type of terrorism was and is his signature and he had done the same with US Embassys in Tanzania and Kenya a couple of years earlier. Synchronized attacks. It took a few days for the news outlets to come up with the name and everybody in the office looked at me sideways for a while wondering how I had known.

My point being that they want our bases removed from the Middle east as well as our influence and presense...They do not "hate our freedoms" and the religious part of it is a convenient recruiting tool...and a big one..for them to capitalize on.

There goal in the USA IS NOT "Muslim Influence"...terrorist could care less. Islam is just an idealogical platform for them to recruit and destabalize third word countries with teetering governments...Afghanistan, briefly Iraq (ironically due to us invading), Sudan etc. I am sure in Osama's fantasyland his end goal is Saudi Arabia, but that aint gonna happen. There goal is to sieze power where they can or outright topple unstable governments and replace them Islamic regimes that would offer support and shelter..

IMO this war will be won through schools and agricultural programs, economic programs, building up weak governments and giving local people something besides bombs and despair. Until then we need a smart, focused, relentless military effort.

Just my take. Furthering "Muslim Influence" in the US is not part of the equation.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by maybereal11]

[edit on 15-7-2010 by maybereal11]

I'm opposed for two reasons.

It's insensitive to the survivors and their wishes. Even if not all are offended, its not reasonable to do this to those who are.

It will clearly be used as a monument to celebrate the slaughter of the innocent victims by many around the world. Have we forgotten the celebrations in the streets of the Muslim world right after the tragedy? No matter who did it, it does not change the images of the people celebrating the slaughter of innocents.

One has to wonder at the motives behind this even getting this far. Who did what for who to cause this to even be considered seriously. Some serious palm greasing or some hidden motivation is clearly in play here.

I'm also troubled the leader of this has been quoted as being for the institution of Sharia Law in the US and once stated they would soon be in charge.

I think its getting this far is perhaps more a case of palms being greased. Nobody could be this insensitive without good reason, making them a pariah in their own community for life just to back this thing. The Muslim group clearly does not have the slightest bit of decency in doing this. Since when is that kind of attitude and behavior rewarded.

This should not even have made it to the point it is being considered. It should have been dismissed out of hand up front and be nothing but an interesting tidbit in the local news when first suggested.

The first thing they should do it track every penny of money in this to the original source and each source should be exhaustively investigated along with all of their family members and associates. If so much as one distant cousin is involved in any radical activities, it should be file nineteened asap.

[edit on 7/15/2010 by Blaine91555]

reply to post by FredT


FredT one thing in your post kinda struck a nerve, chord, funny bone, whichever way anyone wants to view this.

'Freedom of Religion'.........well I can understand we are free to choose which religion we follow, may not be true for some nations but I digress.

Freedom of Religion, ok so you choose what religion you want to follow, then when you do what do you have next, a set of rules / guidelines to follow for said religion, suddenly what happened to the freedom bit!!!

I do believe in something, it is called Humankind, 'cept Religion + Politics = Wars, keeps screwing it up

Wolfie

you knock down the twin towers and build a mosque in its place. the muslims wouldn't like it if you went to mecca, demolished a mosque and put a sears tower in its place or a mcdonalds.

So basically everyone who is opposed to this is comparing every single Muslim to terrorists and every single one of them who attends this Mosque is celebrating thier vistory in 9/11. Hmmm...kind of retarded. In your logic...every single German business owner building his business around Jewish people is wrong because..he is a German..so he must be a Nazi....

Oh yeah....do any of you know for a FACT..that no muslim (minus the terrorists) was killed in the towers during 9/11.

Actually read this article...you guys all sound like the authorities in the story...making idiots of themselves.

islam.about.com...

Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:

Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

But I guess since they are muslim they do not deserve any type of memorial .....Ugh...Morons.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by felonius

 

That's probably one of the most hateful things I've ever seen on ATS. It reeks of ignorance and flies in the face of all this country stands for. Tolerance of religion if it's yours, right? They've really done a number on you with this Muslim thing, haven't they? Pity.

Hateful? Really dont care. I dont pander to bleeding hearts or hippies.

Ignorance? I just call it the way I see it.

Example. Someone comes into my house and takes a crap on my living room floor. They leave a sign carved into the wall with their name as a reminder. I will find that person and they will be exterminated as the roach they are.

All the things this country stands for? Such as "screw with us and you'll glow"?

No greater friend no deadlier enemy. Respect is gained from either fear or strength. Strength will gain friends and fear will cause your enemies to flee.

I'm tolerant of any other religion. I just have no room on my planet for islam.

I'll exclude the sufi's. They are now on the receiving end of some muzzie "warmth" lately. God forbid anything go on inside of islam that'll improve it in any way.

Freakin animals.

They've really done a thing on me with the muzzie thing? They who?
I never really cared for muzzies in general but I tolerated them.
With the new crusade against the west (regardless if the cia started it up or not) I've no use for them at all now.

Your turn now.

[edit on 15/7/10 by felonius]

reply to post by felonius


I love poor weak individuals..they make me laugh. Thier only outlet is to spew hate online and are more than likely...cowards in real life. I say if it makes you feel like your actually relevent...keep posting your comments.
The thing about you and people like you...is they are usually uneducated twits...who usually post without or little knowledge of things around them.... Don't expect me to reply back if you say something..I never have conversations with people who are...shall we say "SPECIAL"...

Originally posted by minute2midnight
I have no problem with it, it's just a mosque.

While we're at it, let's build a Hitler statue in Jerusalem. How about a Catholic Church in Mecca? Maybe we should put the Bush Presidential Library in downtown Baghdad. Oh, I know, a statue of Ho Chi Minh at the Vietnam War Memorial.

No big deal, you guys wouldn't mind that right?

Hit the nail on the head here!!! Great post!!!!!

Originally posted by kerazeesicko
So basically everyone who is opposed to this is comparing every single Muslim to terrorists and every single one of them who attends this Mosque is celebrating thier vistory in 9/11. Hmmm...kind of retarded

. In your logic...every single German business owner building his business around Jewish people is wrong because..he is a German..so he must be a Nazi....

Oh yeah....do any of you know for a FACT..that no muslim (minus the terrorists) was killed in the towers during 9/11.

Actually read this article...you guys all sound like the authorities in the story...making idiots of themselves.

Here we go with the nazi thing. Evil white guy crap.

The thing is, true or not, it is accepted as fact the SOB's were in some way behind the towers. Deal with it.

Perception is now reality.

The fact that the muzzies ARE putting a rat hole next to what was a perceived islamic attack is symbolic. These people do nothing out of coincidence. Had this center been on the other side of town it would have been of no issue.

ITS NEXT FREAKIN DOOR!

Being as many of us dont kiss muzzie butt around here, we're just idiots. Fine. When did you attain the level of clarity to decide this? We have 1500 years of crap from the muslim world to get a track record.

Convince them to have a reformation and get out of the 6th century and we'll consider them human. Most other religions get on fairly well.

islam is the stupid kid down the block with the abusive parents that has to get his jolly's off of hasseling others.

Originally posted by black cat

Originally posted by SpectreDC

And again, since people can't seem to read, I'll make it very clear again; THE COMMUNITY CENTER ISN'T BEING BUILT RIGHT ON TOP OF THE SITE. IT'S BEING BUILT SEVERAL BLOCKS AWAY.

It doesn't matter! The proximity is so close that this can only be viewed as a victory for radical extremist muslims. Show me where the Islamic ruling body of clerics has publicly denounced the reason for the 9/11 attacks as not true to the real message of Islam and I'll back down.

I agree. Think of it this way.

Radical extremist Muslims who feel the west is the enemy and deserve to be slaughtered, send members of their group to attack and destroy a pivotal icon of Western society - taking down the trade centres.

They see the death and destruction as a victory and express their desire to continue these acts.

9 years later, the very same religion that these extremists feel was being offended by Western society, build an icon of Islamic strength on the very same location that these extremists attacked.

These extremists must be dancing in the streets to hear of this.

.... and if mosques in the US are anything like the mosques in Australia or the UK, you will just have to wait and see how long it is before someone smuggles out a recording of some imam or sheikh criticising the West, the US, the people on America, calling for islamic rule, from within that very same mosque.

-- Takers for adding me as Foe welcome.. I seem to get them when islam is the topic.

every single one of you opposers has avoided this question - why?

Why is it okay for a mosque to go up at 9/11 ground zero, but a pulled pork restaurant not allowed to go next door?

Please, someone elaborate