Ask An Atheist Anything

Originally posted by ChickenPie


See, this is completely illogical.

Just because you write something doesn't make it true. Explain yourself. Wouldn't God have an opinion? If a God had an opinion, then how would it not supersede everyone else's? If God's opinion supersedes everyone else's, then wouldn't that make it objective?

I think it all comes down to how you define moral and objective. By your definition, a thing like subjectivity doesn't even exist, even taste would be objective. God has a taste and that supersedes everyones else's taste, so taste is objective.

Maybe to avoid any further confusion we should define subjectivity as "judgment based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts" (princeton). Now it no longer matters what god thinks, as we know that individual people have different personal views on moral. You could claim that certain moral viewpoints are objective, as we all share them. But I think you will always be able to find someone who has a different viewpoint.

Thank you, Mr. Pie. Just as I had suspected you will go to great lengths to avoid backing up your insistence that there is a god and that god is objective morality. Myself and others have explained to you multiple times why and how morality is subjective and arbitrary. Though when you're asked to explain your assertions you won't because you can't, and backpedal as quickly as you can. This says it all. Good luck to you, sir.

Ok,
what about all the atheists who have near death experiances (and 'convert' from atheism shortly after) . Is there a rational explanation to the near death experiance phenomena?

[edit on 3-8-2010 by alien101]

Originally posted by alien101
Ok,
what about all the atheists who have near death experiances (and 'convert' from atheism shortly after) . Is there a rational explanation to the near death experiance phenomena?

This is just my perception - - I'm not quoting actual science fact.

As far as I know - - there is still a lot science does not know about the brain.

The brain "learns" - - active parts of the brain can grow in size with concentration on specific information. If you are a mathematician - - the area of the brain that controls that - - might be larger then the average person.

There is also memory cells. We are a biological product of a biological product of a biological product. Some cells from past "product" may have been past on. Memories may not be from our experiences - - but possibly from past "product".

Got that so far?

Anyway - - we all come from genes & cells of times when religion/god was required (such as in the mid-east Muslim countries today). So we all have those genes/cells in our brains which can be activated.

In an unconscious state - - the brain could activate these ancient cells - - giving us a religious experience.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Just to be very clear - - on a personal note - - although I do not believe in an omnipotent god being - - I do believe all is energy - - that energy thought creates - - and the consciousness is eternal in energy. So I do believe who we are in consciousness - - is eternal in energy state.



[edit on 3-8-2010 by Annee]

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by alien101
Ok,
what about all the atheists who have near death experiances (and 'convert' from atheism shortly after) . Is there a rational explanation to the near death experiance phenomena?

This is just my perception - - I'm not quoting actual science fact.

As far as I know - - there is still a lot science does not know about the brain.

The brain "learns" - - active parts of the brain can grow in size with concentration on specific information. If you are a mathematician - - the area of the brain that controls that - - might be larger then the average person.

There is also memory cells. We are a biological product of a biological product of a biological product. Some cells from past "product" may have been past on. Memories may not be from our experiences - - but possibly from past "product".

Got that so far?

Anyway - - we all come from genes & cells of times when religion/god was required (such as in the mid-east Muslim countries today). So we all have those genes/cells in our brains which can be activated.

In an unconscious state - - the brain could activate these ancient cells - - giving us a religious experience.

That's a very interesting perspective, though most of my reading on genetic memory is that it's very sketchy, and it doesn't seem like a large enough amount of information could be transferred to be able to make lucid memories, more like weird feelings (like deja vu, except that's restricted to yourself.) Seems kind of contrary to evolution, as well, to have non-pertinent memories persist. Needing to know to stay away from snakes, that's useful. Needing to know that your grandpa liked Corn Flakes and his Model-T, not so much.

For NDEs, I still reference Elizabeth Kübler-Ross's studies of children and the oddities associated with those observations (I described it earlier in the thread.) Overall, though, there are just too many conflicting views to get a good handle on the subject, for me at least. One guy says "it happens because the brain is shutting down" and the next guy cites a case where the experience occurred during a period of no brain activity, and the next guy says measurements aren't good enough, and so on.

One of the reasons that Kübler-Ross promoted hospice and studied death was that she was appalled by the lack of interest in it. For science and medicine, in her time (1960s,) patients who were dying weren't studied, they were medicated and shoved off to die, because death wasn't something that was much more than "absence of life," and inherently uninteresting.

Originally posted by alien101
Ok,
what about all the atheists who have near death experiances (and 'convert' from atheism shortly after) . Is there a rational explanation to the near death experiance phenomena?

[edit on 3-8-2010 by alien101]

Yes there is. They can be recreated in living people in a variety of ways.


20/20 also did a segment on this phenomenon and found scientific explanations as well (it's on YouTube somewhere).

Originally posted by adjensen

That's a very interesting perspective, though most of my reading on genetic memory is that it's very sketchy, and it doesn't seem like a large enough amount of information could be transferred to be able to make lucid memories,

We flat out don't know. Scientists don't know. I would not discount the possibility.

Plus sadly - - there are ridiculous restrictions on getting science material published.

I do know there is a lot of interest and research currently in brain scans.

Some suggest criminals are born. That early brain scans can detect possible problems and be treated early.

reply to post by adjensen


I am not saying only ancient memory triggers a god belief in the unconscious.

I am saying there is a long term developed part in the brain that has learned and maintains a god belief - - - because the brain learns and maintains memory.

In this modern age - few people escape hearing about god/heaven/hell. That information is also imprinted in the brain.

The unconscious brain can activate that area of the brain.

reply to post by ChickenPie

Just because you write something doesn't make it true

Isn't this the premise behind your scripture? Its written down in a scripture therefore gays must be immoral, therefore un-believers must be wicked. And that's the sense of reason and rational we have to deal with since the birth of the abrahamic religions, and even before that (Zeus, Thotan, Ra, Horus), which allows a person to abandon science, abandon questions, abandon the application of morality in light of reason and social understanding with the reasoning that THEIR particular God must be the correct god.

And then proceed to call us ignorant and/or "sinners" - Pleeeeeassse.

I think it's a tragedy that children grow up with these type of prejiduces due to the belief in the supernatural, and at no fault of their own, juuust like the Hitler youth.


[edit on 3/8/10 by awake_and_aware]

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

Just because you write something doesn't make it true

Isn't this the premise behind your scripture?

Ouch! That's a good observation that I overlooked while trying to get Mr. Pie to back up his claims. It seems at this point Mr. Pie has dug such a deep hole for himself that he can't reach his keyboard anymore to support his beliefs. It's not unexpected though and frankly it's more pleasant in the absence of an abrasive and angry stone-in-the-shoe theist.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Yes there is. They can be recreated in living people in a variety of ways.

im not talking about conscious out of body experiances (which i can do) / brain stimulation, i'm talking about a near death experiance (e.g. life review)

edit: actually im not going to waste time with a skeptic. Skeptics will always remain skeptical, having a closed mind. There are no such thing as aliens, it is impossible to have telekinetic abilities.

[edit on 4-8-2010 by alien101]

Originally posted by alien101

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Yes there is. They can be recreated in living people in a variety of ways.

im not talking about conscious out of body experiances (which i can do) / brain stimulation, i'm talking about a near death experiance (e.g. life review)

edit: actually im not going to waste time with a skeptic. Skeptics will always remain skeptical, having a closed mind. There are no such thing as aliens, it is impossible to have telekinetic abilities.

Ok,
what about all the atheists who have near death experiances (and 'convert' from atheism shortly after) . Is there a rational explanation to the near death experiance phenomena?

You asked a question and were given answers. Now you're gonna get nasty because you don't like the answers?

I'm an energy empath. I've had OBEs and other experiences since birth. You and I both know an NDE is the same/similar to an OBE.

Still - the brain is an amazing and complicated organ. In Logic - there is no reason not to believe the brain is creating these experiences.

Because you don't like or believe this answer -- does not make this answer wrong. It doesn't make it right either. It simply makes it an honest answer from an Atheist - - to your question.

Originally posted by alien101
im not talking about conscious out of body experiances (which i can do) / brain stimulation, i'm talking about a near death experiance (e.g. life review)

edit: actually im not going to waste time with a skeptic. Skeptics will always remain skeptical, having a closed mind. There are no such thing as aliens, it is impossible to have telekinetic abilities.

Skeptics are the best thing for humans. Skeptics don't deny such things as aliens or telekinetic abilities. But they do require some fairly rigid standards of proof.

So what about near death experiences? People get to the verge of death and describe similar things. What does this mean to you?

Originally posted by Annee
You asked a question and were given answers. Now you're gonna get nasty because you don't like the answers?

That's true, Annee. People don't like answers that challenge or overturn their beliefs. For a long time I didn't either. But I came to want to understand the universe the way it is rather than the way I wished it would be.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


What gets me about the "believers" - if you are an Atheist (non-belief in a deity) - you have no beliefs at all.

Other then "non-belief in a deity" - - everyone is an individual.

Of course there are the Hard Core "if its not black & white and sitting on my desk in physical form" Atheist/Skeptics. I honestly think that is the rarity.

I have beliefs - they just require tangible & logic. Not being assimilated by a cultural belief in an omnipotent imaginary being.

I've seen a UFO (broad daylight - blue cloudless skies). I've stated on here "Suns of God descending from the Heavens" - - advanced off planet beings landing in crafts. For me there is enough evidence to logically conclude "we are not alone".

I've had enough experiences to believe in "thought energy".

I just don't believe in a deity of any kind - - in the true sense of a religious god or nature god or even universe god.

Originally posted by Annee
Of course there are the Hard Core "if its not black & white and sitting on my desk in physical form" Atheist/Skeptics. I honestly think that is the rarity.

I personally believe those types are more common than one might think, because by that definition that also ropes in everyone calling themselves "agnostic".

And as far as beliefs go I tend to think everyone's beliefs relate back to what they would call their logic. But then, beliefs are based on those things we can't or haven't proven. I believe it to be reasonable to suspect there may be life in the universe other than earth. Note though that I didn't claim that I believe there is life elsewhere. The former statement requires logic but the latter requires evidence.

But not only am I an atheist but also a skeptic, so I tend to avoid most things unsupported by hard, objective evidence. Just my .02

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Ya see. We both are non-believers in a deity. But think differently as individuals. And that's OK.

I can't label myself a Skeptic - 'cuz I'm more of a "probable/possible -possible/probable" mind set - because of my own personal experiences. And that's OK too.

According to Religioustolerance.org there are (One source estimates) 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world.

So why would "believers" think ALL Atheist/Skeptics think the same?

www.religioustolerance.org...


[edit on 4-8-2010 by Annee]

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Ya see. We both are non-believers in a deity. But think differently as individuals. And that's OK.

I can't label myself a Skeptic - 'cuz I'm more of a "probable/possible -possible/probable" mind set - because of my own personal experiences. And that's OK too.

According to Religioustolerance.org there are (One source estimates) 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world.

So why would "believers" think ALL Atheist/Skeptics think the same?

www.religioustolerance.org...


[edit on 4-8-2010 by Annee]

I agree. Atheists are a pretty diverse group. This is why I always laugh when people try to label atheism a "religion". In fact, atheism ropes in probably one of the most diverse collections of people: gay/straight, pro-choice/pro-life, etc. etc.

It was reason and desire to understand the world that brought me to atheism. And that desire also helped me find natural and scientific answers to the NDE/OBE phenomenon that so pissed off the above poster. I suspect that was his/her "proof" of some kind of afterlife or a reason for religiosity. To him/her I'm just another darned skeptic who "won't believe anything" that they're tired of dealing with. But at least I'm searching for tangible answers rather than sustaining unproven delusions.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Right!

I have premonitions that come true and other experiences. I can not explain them - nor can I deny them. But I do not expect anyone who has not had these experiences to accept them as tangible proof of anything.

About 30 years ago I had a premonition of a "blond curly headed toddler boy". Premonitions are different then visions or OBEs. They are more intense and have a stronger imprint. At least mine do.

Today my 2 1/2 year old "blond curly headed grandson" is standing in front of me. My entire life changed because of his birth. His dad passed of Leukemia before he was a month old -- and I became his main caretaker.

Why would I know something 30 years before it happened? Of course it could be argued its just a coincidence. But its not the only premonition I've had - that came to be. One thing science uses as proof - - is repetition.

I do not believe in a deity - - but I do believe thought is energy and energy is constant.

We could be like a very advanced sophisticated video game - - where you need to complete layers before moving to the next. Which could explain premonitions - - in repeating a level.

Hey! Good a reason as any

I'm also saying - you can have these experiences and not attribute them to a god.

I do believe there is a scientific explanation. Even if that science understanding is beyond what we know today.

Science is great - - but still limited to known knowledge - - or theory based on known knowledge.