Islam is the best DEMOCRACY (NOT Western Democracy)

reply to post by LeoVirgo

There is no jury, all that is needed is a witness voicing something for 'proof'....maybe Im wrong, but the last time I read up on the courting system for Islam....I prayed that this will not become of our world one day.

It is good that you don't believe everything you hear.

Witness, yes witness can be held to increase weight on the accusation'e behalf, but one witness is never enough.

There is rules, that everyone agrees with, and Islam also agrees with, innocent until guilty.

More so, yes Islam has a world wide goal, but not a forceful one as I describe in the OP.

I describe in the OP that it is everyone's individual choice what system they want to believe in. That is up to them, Islam doesn't condone enforcement of Islamic laws on others, unless they make the agreement.

reply to post by oozyism


But the fact that people hold religions as better then or less then, keeps our species divided.

We should have a group of many faiths and beliefs, even atheists...to sit down and write us a 'new world constitution' that can match what the world is ready for and needs world wide.

Religion and politics should not mix. Religions divide us...divided we continue to fall.

What ever constitution can be set for the world...should show and represent itself with buildings that are places for all to gather weekly to brake bread together, congregate, discuss how to help the planet in a global way, and accept each other due to culture differences and belief differences. We need no religion to make such a thing happen.

The largest 'worship' centers should be of not ONE religion....but places that accept all faiths.

We must stop dividing ourselves.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cbbca8b06663.jpg[/atsimg]

It's utterly useless to try to engage in debate with the OP. You can quote him a dozen legitimate sources for your argument and he will summarily dismiss them all as Western propaganda.

Trying to debate him is like trying to flog a dead horse.....War is inevitable.

Once you understand the OP and realize that there are millions more like him you will know that there will never be peace on this planet.

Bush had it right.......you can criticise him all you want but in the end he will be vindicated. At least people in Iraq and Afghanistan now have a fighting chance for freedom.

edited to add.......
Trying to debate with people like the OP and his sympathisers is a humongous waste of time. If I am going to engage in it then I will make it as humorous and entertaining as possible, otherwise there is absolutely no point in doing so.....perhaps the OP is hoping that we will all laugh ourselves to death.

[edit on 27-7-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

This thread has continued to go on... with both sides still stubbornly held notions, and none would give. Not unexpected as there are seldom any agreement made on forums. At best would skulk back to the corner and stare wild eye and hot at each other.

But at least through it all, I am sure many by now would have a better grasp of the issues being discussed and debated upon.

One thing some would like to point out at how the muslim Allah seemed like some fierce and angry Almighty, who annihilates and wipes out anyone or demand death for evil doers.

One thing all must put in proper perspective is that our Creator is the final arbitar of life and death, for He created us, and like an artists whose creation turns ugly, would just destroy it and throw it into the dustbin.

For every angry human with the muslim version of our Creator, do know that He only acted upon the cries for justice of the many victims harmed by others.

Let's look at our judical system. When an 'animal' is sentenced to death, do we voice our anger upon the judge who made that call? No, because both the victim and the prosecutor had all the time to present their case in a fair trial, and once judgement is passed, it passes with the authority of society through the elected leader of the State, the voice of the People, representing the majority stakeholders of a society.

Perhaps, the current superficial knowledge of the Koran by the non-muslim masses focuses mainly on the harsh punishments and not on the entirety of this religion of peace. Thus it is vital for all to understand more before forming intelligent and rational judgements.

We had tried a more merciful democratic system of justice. Had it worked? Had crime been absolutely eradicated? Nope, crime still lives in democracies. Greed and corruption runs rampant.

Had the seemingly harsh system of justice by those of the Muslim faith eradicated crime? Nope. It too still lives. Greed and corruption too runs rampant.

So what system of justice or governance should civilised mankind adopt? These are issues each and everyone of our generation must resolve not only for ourselves, but for the next generations to come.

In the meantime, while the adverseries are sulking in their corner, if anyone else have a newer insight that might bridge our differences, do share them.

Thanks and cheers.

reply to post by oozyism


oozy you have consistently refused to answer questions directed at you, you have used your own definition of words to support your arguements and have shown a complete disregard for opposing viewpoints regardless of strength of arguement.

I sincerely hope you show more regard and respect for reasoned debate in your new thread than you have in this one.

I look forward to reading it and possibly contributing.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

But at least through it all, I am sure many by now would have a better grasp of the issues being discussed and debated upon.

What's there to grasp?.....our asses?..... any rational person can see that there is no real debate here........It takes at least two people to have a debate, not one person and a stone wall.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

One thing all must put in proper perspective is that our Creator is the final arbitar of life and death, for He created us, and like an artists whose creation turns ugly, would just destroy it and throw it into the dustbin.

But he won't throw us in the trash can. Why do you think He sent Christ here?

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

For every angry human with the muslim version of our Creator, do know that He only acted upon the cries for justice of the many victims harmed by others.

When Gods people become abominable, He sends Satan and his Minions to annihilate them.......and when they have learned their lesson, God raises them back up, and then punishes Satan for his barbarism.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

Perhaps, the current superficial knowledge of the Koran by the non-muslim masses focuses mainly on the harsh punishments and not on the entirety of this religion of peace. Thus it is vital for all to understand more before forming intelligent and rational judgements.

I have read about as much of the Koran as I have read the Bible,...about 90%. It is not only the uncivilized punishments, it is the fact that the book denies the Divinity of Christ and labels Christians as Infidels who are to be killed by any means necessary,....... you can interpret it any way you like.........but it still states the same.

Originally popsted by SeekerofTruth101

In the meantime, while the adverseries are sulking in their corner, if anyone else have a newer insight that might bridge our differences, do share them.

If I could hear from just 10 Muslims who would refute the arguments that the op and I have made, and back up their position with facts and sources, and prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that they believe the op's interpretation of an Islamic Democracy is phony, and prove to me that most Muslims do not buy into his theory, I would gladly reconsider some of my own thoughts on the subject.



[edit on 27-7-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

reply to post by Freeborn


Classic.
The resemblance is indeed uncanny.
And as for the Irish fondness for sheep, I expected New-Zealand to come up as number one. I read somewhere that they have the best looking sheep.

reply to post by oozyism

It is good that you at least gained some form of satisfaction our of this thread, I like it when people are entertained, I'm the amusement.

No. The entertaining part was the back and forth between you two. My post wasn't meant to mock you or My2commoncentsworth personally, so if it caused offense, it was unintended.

That being said, I have clearly made my points, everyone seems to make the same arguments which has already been answered throughout 40 pages.

I'm not so sure that you clearly made your point, Oozyism. What I got from your thread was that you have an abstract idea of Islam, based on your interpretation of the Koran, that is not reflected by Islamic countries throughout the world. When these are pointed out as examples of oppressive, even barbaric theocracies, your comeback is that their leaders have infected Islam with Culture and that they are not 'true' Muslims.
So, your conception of a pure implementation of the Koran doesn't seem to exist in the real world.
I'm going out of my way to try to visualise what you envisage as an Islamic democracy even though the cognitive dissonance makes my head spin. I imagine a place full of people with a similar outlook to my Muslim friends: relaxed about their religion, private, quiet and peaceful, never discussing their religious beliefs with non-Muslims unless expressely invited to do so. They would be going about their daily lives carrying their own grasp of the Koran inside their hearts, outwardly similar to non-Muslims in every way.
And this is where I'm stuck.
No matter how carefully I read your words, I didn't get any clear picture of what you mean by Islamic Law. You didn't put down a list of laws to be followed by your citizens; you certainly didn't convince me that your female citizens would have the same rights to assume positions of leadership as their male counterparts and that all these positions would be open to them, with no exception.
You speak about choice, but I didn't see you address anywhere the choice your women would have to not submit to being treated like dogs or children by their husbands. I'm referring to that verse in the Koran about the measures to be taken against willful, disobedient wives.

Why should minority live under the rule of majority? When everyone can choose?

So, each citizen would have this set of rules based on the Koran and they could choose to obey each one or not.

Your solution for disobeying any of these laws (by exercising your right to do so) is to strip you of your Islamic citizenship or to be meted out some punishment as decreed by the Koran if you want to remain a citizen. Okay, I get that you are drawing parallels to the Western model but where is the difference? How is your model better?

Yet again, your citizens choose to abide by rules not determined by them on the outset and to suffer the consequences, also not determined by them, if they break the law.
Now, tell me, how would the gentle Muslims similar to my friends I described at the start be better off under your system than they are now?

And one last question, Oozyism, my friend. If Islam is the religion of peace, why are you so angry all the time?

DUMBEST THREAD EVER!!! THE OP HAS NO IDEA WHAT DEMOCRACY EVEN MEANS. THIS WHOLE THREAD IS PREDICATED ON A FALSEHOOD.

MONUMENTAL FAIL!!

Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 28-7-2010 by Gemwolf]

I couldn't be bothered to read every post in these 42 pages but I think the OP needs to reread the Koran again!

http:/www.thereligionofpeace.com

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"

and on and on...

reply to post by thov420

Originally posted by thov420
I couldn't be bothered to read every post in these 42 pages but I think the OP needs to reread the Koran again!

SOMEONE definitely needs to "reread the Koran again" (or more likely, actually, read it for the first time), instead of pasting suspiciously edited verses that are out of textual context from an Islam-hate website.


Also: What the hell happened to this thread? The last....10 pages seem to be nothing more than insulting images and personal attacks posted over and over again?

It's funny how I can open the Koran to just about any page....(try it sometime),....and read the most vile and hateful monologue that the world has ever seen.

Clearly, they are the ravings of a paranoid delusional madman.

Clearly, it is nothing more than a clever attack on Jews and Christians.

A religion of peace?.......It is a religion of submission.......If you become a Muslim, you might as well turn around, drop your drawers, and bend over.......and hope that there isn't a camel or a goat nearby...... Allah has a big surprise waiting for you!

Who can prove me wrong?

Thread closed because... wow...

apparently the Terms and Conditions are completely irrelevant in this thread.

Thread is being reviewed and cleaned up.

Closed.