Islam is the best DEMOCRACY (NOT Western Democracy)

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

[Snip because that's very long]

I knew you were going to claim that.. you're a real funny guy. I only posted those because you insisted on verses from your holy book. I never claimed my beliefs were from your holy book.

And you cannot say this is taken out of context:

"
From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My beliefs are largely because of what I see goes on in the news concerning Muslim communities. Like the guy who killed his daughter because she was becoming too Americanized.. and the claim that under Islamic law this is acceptable. The actions of that Islamic community spoke volumes. No one turned this guy in to the cops or said a negative thing about him.. many who were interviewed agreed that this mans faith says these things are o.k.

I agree not all Muslims are in on the take over the world thing.. but there is a large Islamic faction I call Radical Islam that does believe this was Mohamed's mandate and they actively do pursue it.

More about that here.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

My point is if deception is legal and there is this radical faction then they can claim they lawfully use deception to achieve their murderous goals. With this deception in place.. who am I to trust.. You ? who claim you are a loving caring spiritual guy? I cannot because who knows.. you may be deceiving me....

[edit on 14-7-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

[edit on 14-7-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

16:106 (Asad) As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith-and this, to be sure, does not apply to [133] one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, [134] but [only, to] him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth-: upon all such [falls] God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them: -

????

And don't bring me Hadith etc I'm not concerned with those, I'm concerned with Quran, the source of Islam.

I agree it's a perfect plan.

You can see how well the Middle East has become since Mo-Mo put them on Full Retard.

Originally posted by jerico65
I agree it's a perfect plan.

You can see how well the Middle East has become since Mo-Mo put them on Full Retard.

You mean how well the middle east became due to Western miss management of the area.

Politics mate..

Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by jerico65
I agree it's a perfect plan.

You can see how well the Middle East has become since Mo-Mo put them on Full Retard.

You mean how well the middle east became due to Western miss management of the area.

Politics mate..

The rab tribes were at each others throats til the westerners gave the an oil franchise and more cash than they knew what to do with. Nothing of value to mankind from them for 700 years, so no wonder thay hate the jews so much, hebrews in medicine and science have saved more rabs than any rab including mudhummud

reply to post by oozyism

So China treating Chinese citizens different than non-Chinese citizen is Apartheid rule lol, nice try.

Oozy , oozy I am disappointed

Those who are non-Muslims should live amongst their own

These were your exact words and it is blatant aparthied.

Nope, you make agreements with the host country's laws, you must abide by your agreements.

Then why do muslims squeal every day for special privilages that allow them to circumvent a host nations culture , history and laws , succesfully self segragating themselves when they migrate to a kuffar state ? Such a division inside a nation destroys cohesion.

If you reject Islam, you will be given Islamic citizenship, that is rejecting the American constitution, and going against it.

Under Islamic rule, if you are a non-Muslim, doesn't make you second class citizen, you are not a citizen at all lol.

These lines contradict , in the first if I reject islam I'm in if I reject my country's laws which contradics your statements of agreeing with your host country's laws. In the second I'm completely out and the words bolded are very revealing.

You choose to become a Muslim, if you decide you don't want to be Muslim, that is your decision. Individual decision, best Democracy around, not majority.

Wrong again , my you are conceited , the majority would be the Umma , the muslim community. And they would say-
"Convert , pay jizyah or die" this is a very democratic choice , isn't it?

Why should minority live under the rule of majority? When everyone can choose?

There will always be a minority who do not agree with the majority , everyone can choose , but they will not make the same choices. How is your vitriol any better than what is practiced in the west.You deny me citizenship because I did not convert to your religion , isn't that worst , at least in the west , no religion is prerequisit to my citizenship and I am not persecuted for it. While under your system I'm disenfranchised or deported.


I ask again , do you prescribe to shariah law.



[edit on 14-7-2010 by De La Valletta]

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

yes I accept that Islam treats women different than men, but I also know that women and men are different, but equal.
[edit on 14-7-2010 by oozyism]

I won't take you to task on this as you were honest and I appreciate that. The only way women are different is physiologically. They are just as capable of leading a household or Religion for that matter as any man. They should always have equal authority and rights. I hope we agree.

What started me here is your belief it is OK for a Theocracy to throw a citizen out if they do not believe in their particular Religion or Theology. To me that is abhorrent. It means, if I'm born in a Muslim Theocracy, I have to leave the country if I don't practice or believe in the Muslim Faith. By no stretch of the imagination is that freedom as it is a Faith forced on a person if they wish to stay.

While under our system, I can believe as I wish. I can worship as I wish. I can say what I wish. All without fear. Until you can say that in an Islamic society, you will never be free.

I was born and raised in one Faith, I changed to another as an adult. I'm still welcome among my family and friends. I gave up no rights when I did so as a citizen of the US. That is how it should be in all of the world. We should all live side by side without any fear of each other. We should treat each other the same no matter what Faith we subscribe to as long as it does not deny the rights of others. Whenever one person considers their rights more important than those of another, it can only lead to bad things.

I am not guilty for the sins of those who lived long before I was born. Nobody is. You, if you are as you say, are not guilty of the horrors committed in the name of Islam. That is as it should be. No Muslim should live in fear in a Muslim Theocracy, just because they define their Faith differently than their neighbor; an yet we see it every day.

It is best that Government not be ruled by one Faith or by one ideology. That always leads to evil. History has taught us that and God gave me a brain capable of seeing the truth. A Theocracy, which is the form of Democracy you embrace, has never in history led to anything but a denial of basic human rights and evil acts. History does not lie. It can not lie. History just shows us the fruits of mans lunacy.

Originally posted by mordant1
The rab tribes were at each others throats til the westerners gave the an oil franchise and more cash than they knew what to do with. Nothing of value to mankind from them for 700 years, so no wonder thay hate the jews so much, hebrews in medicine and science have saved more rabs than any rab including mudhummud

I hope that whatever rock you crawled out from under still has a vacancy for your return. The topic was [Islam is the best DEMOCRACY (NOT Western Democracy)] not an ignorant rant about "rabs"

I should also mention that I've made many Muslim friends over the years. I've had this same conversation with them. Most came here to escape a Muslim Theocracy and live in a system were they could live with less fear.

One came from Kuwait. His whole family was slaughtered by one of Sadams Sons.

Another is a Palestinian who moved here because he says "they are crazy over there". He, a Jewish friend we share and I sit down now and then to a dinner together. When we do, I always see that as how the world should be. He sneaks in through Jordan once year to see family and has to hide, because he fears retaliation from other Muslims, I find that sad and so does he.

reply to post by De La Valletta

These were your exact words and it is blatant aparthied.

The Apartheid rule was unjust, Islamic rule is not unjust, there is a huge difference. Everyone wants to live amongst their own kind, don't forget.

These lines contradict , in the first if I reject islam I'm in if I reject my country's laws which contradics your statements of agreeing with your host country's laws. In the second I'm completely out and the words bolded are very revealing.

No they don't contradict each other, once again, agreements come first, as I stated before, if you agree to abide by a host country's laws you must abide by them. What you quote was a mistype, I edit the quote, read it again.

Wrong again , my you are conceited , the majority would be the Umma , the muslim community. And they would say-
"Convert , pay jizyah or die" this is a very democratic choice , isn't it?

I can't be bothered putting up with your ignorance, you choose in individual level to become a Muslim, therefore making Quran your constitution, therefore Quran rejects murder, condemns murder. Jizya is TAX for non-Muslims who want to live under Islamic rule, because they don't pay Zakat. etc

There will always be a minority who do not agree with the majority , everyone can choose , but they will not make the same choices. How is your vitriol any better than what is practiced in the west.You deny me citizenship because I did not convert to your religion , isn't that worst , at least in the west , no religion is prerequisit to my citizenship and I am not persecuted for it. While under your system I'm disenfranchised or deported.

Because you choose in individual level whether you want to become Muslim or not. You're not subdued by the majority, it is at individual level.

Under my system, neither are you prosecuted, nor are you deported. If you don't want to live under Islam you can leave, you will not be deported, only when you work against the constitution will you be prosecuted and evicted, its called treason in the US.

Keep trying

I ask again , do you prescribe to shariah law.

No, the Quran.

reply to post by Blaine91555

What started me here is your belief it is OK for a Theocracy to throw a citizen out if they do not believe in their particular Religion or Theology.

You won't be kicked out, your citizenship will be taken away from you, that doesn't effect you in any way in regards to your worldly existence.

You will be prosecuted under the same laws as everyone else, you will be allowed the same freedoms as everyone else, if there is many like you, you will be even given an autonomous region to live on, but all of these are done based on agreements, it is your choice whether you want to live under Islamic rule or your own ideology.

When your citizenship is revoked, it doesn't mean you will have to leave the Islamic nation, you can stay, as long as you renew your vows and claim you are a non-Muslim, but willing to still follow Islamic laws and abide by them.

Muslims will do the fighting to protect you etc, you can live your life.




[edit on 14-7-2010 by oozyism]

reply to post by mordant1


I may disagree with Oozy's assertion that Islam makes a good Democracy, but that doesn't change the fact that you seriously need to read more. We have things such as writing and mathematics because of those that first settled in the ME. Grow up.

I disagree, Australia is the BEST DEMOCRACY, here is why:

Let's make it simple and break it down:

- Australia is the nation.

- An Australian is the citizen of Australia .

- The constitution of Australia is the constitution of Australia .


Once you become an Australian you accept the constitution of Australia as your constitution, and govern yourself, and those who want to be Australian, through the law, which makes a perfect DEMOCRACY.

Islam fighting the NWO? Don't the extremist muslims wasnt to make every state a state of Islam?
Maybe they are the NWO. Maybe you've been tricked into siding with your enemy?

[edit on 14-7-2010 by pscysm]

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

16:106 (Asad) As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith-and this, to be sure, does not apply to [133] one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, [134] but [only, to] him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth-: upon all such [falls] God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them: -

????

And don't bring me Hadith etc I'm not concerned with those, I'm concerned with Quran, the source of Islam.

Huh?.. I wasn't singling out that verse.. that was just a part of the long post from before.. i just left it to show i was snipping that content because it was so long... I guess I should have sniped that too.

Anyway, I see you didn't respond to the rest of that post.

reply to post by oozyism

Oozy your islamic democracy is a theocracy an opressive one at that , in all your posts replying to me you have only sunk deeper in the mud.The aparthied rule is unjust , that's your best answer , but persecuting someone based on religion is hunky dorey and you call it a choice , let's see a.I convert and get comfort b.I denounce it and I am disenfranchised and ostracised.

Which do you think most weak willed people will pick? When someone refuses to pay your jizyah will that be working against the islamic constitution , what will be the result? Where in the west do christians extort money from muslims for not being christian? Why then does this seem like a good idea to muslims , taxing people for their beliefs and your comfortable with that?

You speak of a non-muslim submiting to islamic law but muslims clamour for their own laws in anothers land , is this not do as I say but not as I do.

reply to post by oozyism


I have no interest in living in a Theocracy. I can only pray you don't try and take over other countries and FORCE your system on them also.

When you take away a persons citizenship, you are saying they are inferior to you and you have the right to lord over them. If you can not see how that is wrong, your brainwashing is complete.

You are not superior to anyone else no matter their faith. You do not have the right to force your Religions laws on others. You are just the same as everyone else and if you think otherwise you are dangerous to the world. Your biggest problem is that people will judge your system by its fruits, which we see all of the time.

We have tasted real freedom and it is sweet. You won't be able to replace our free society with a dictatorial Theocracy where only people approved by your leaders are allowed to hold power. It's taste is sour and its fruit is poison. Unless a non-Muslim can hold the highest office in your Theocracy, nobody is free. The freedom is a lie.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Blaine, I respect your views and had even starred you views, not that you or any truth seeker would want such trinklets anyway.

Rather than to condemn one's religious figurehead and toeing TPTB's line to use it divide us as it had been for centuries, religion can be used to unite us, more so a religion that has so much similiarities from which human civilisation sprang from.

It is the same Creator that Jews, Muslims and Christians had been worshipping all along. The only difference are the cultures and the way evil men had used HIM to keep themselves in power by twisting His words as well as the teachers words, those whom had been sent to mankind to show our Creator's love and path for our evolution.

The Western civilisation had the enlightened era ancestors to thank, for during the 15th and 16th century, free men due to their skills whom were not serfs to the monarchies had time to reflect on the gift of life from our creator and believe no man should be a serf, kept in the dark and fed with BS.

Bit by bit, their eyes were opened to the machinations and manipulations of Rome and its twisting of religion, and by popular support, they created independence from Rome and formed their own civilisations based upon divine teachings, the very same teachings to seperates us from our tree swinging monkey cousins to comprehend domestication of animals, farming and building of civilisations and hopefully, a more enlightened form of governance to lead humanity.

Unfortunately for the Muslims during that era, they had been rule by the vicious and barbaric Ottoman Empire, which kept them stupid, denied education and opportunities.

Even earlier innovations of maths and science by the enlightened Muslims of an earlier era were wiped away, and forced into servitude to their masters by twisting and manipulating the holy religion.

Even today, we can still see such manipulations by evil men that sought to keep the muslims down, and only inflame them when it suits their purpose to be in power.

But times a' changing. More of our muslims brother and sisters are educated, and it will be them to take the lead in future. Senile old men will not last forever.

The critical thing here is never to allow religion to divide us again as in the past, making us hate one another. If we truly love the Almighty, we will all know that it had been the same Almighty we all had been worshipping all along, the One who gave us the gift of life, love and free will, as well as the way to a better path.

Open your eyes and look into the wonder of ancient scripts and you will find the truth of religion, not just on one sole book, but on many others which combined, will corelate and lead to your foundations for the greatest truth to be known to mankind.

It may be, but I have no way of figuring it out. The reason is that throughout the Islam world men create their own little personal views as to what they desire and then slap the Muslin religion on it as a stamp of approval even when it commonly goes against that religion's true teachings.

What allows them to get away with this common practice is that the vast majority in the Middle East live in ignorance to know any different, and what creates this ignorance is these same men ensure their personal views are officially indoctrinated in schools and cultures. If you take the point of view of let’s say a woman who from the time she is born is forced down a path that the Western world may see as forced control even to the point of slavery that same woman cannot see it as anything more than what she knows as normal life, which as I said was control from the day she was born.

What I find a better indicator of Democracy, freedom, or anyway anyone wants to call it is looking at the micro level of living within the population to determine how they actually live. Comparing political systems in an abstract way means little to me since the abstract is typically corrupted once it is put into application by pure personal desires of the few in control.




[edit on 15-7-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Stared my friend though we are somewhat on the different ends of the spectrum.

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by sdcigarpig

 

The problem that I see with any religious system being claimed as a good idea of a government system is that it is not a democracy, rather it is an olgarchy, a system of government that is run by the religious part of society, and not that by the people

Many assumptions are made in this thread, and this is an example of it:

I clearly stated that the Quran is the constitution, Islam is the nation, Muslim is the citizen.

You choose to become a Muslim, it is your option.

And no, the government isn't ruled by the religious part of the society, that is cultural.

The government is supposed to be ruled by any one Islam sees capable of ruling.

Not religious, it can be from any back ground, from any professions, the only condition is, for you to be a citizen of Islam.

You miss the point that many here are seeing. The Koran is the holy book that is revered by millions of muslims. This is fact. There are countries that follow the muslim faith/beliefe, along with the islamic traditions that go along with such. This too is fact. Where you have countries, where the Koran is a major part of the function of the government, then that government is not a democracy, but a theocracy, under the control of a few clerics (Olagarchy). Most people have read the texts, but it is those who have studied these texts, for years and years, who are most likely clerics or priests, who would make determinations as to what the actual laws under those texts would be, the implications of, and the original intention of such. In a muslim run country, it is not the comman man or general population who states the intention and writings of the Koran, the final decisions are left into the hands of the clerics, this too is fact.
History proves this point time and time again, be it the crusades, the great purging of europe of the christians against the pagans and other undesirables, to the actual muslim conquests of different countries, the partition of Isreal, the partition and seperation of India/Pakistan. All of these are examples where religion played a major role in a government of one kind or another, only to where one group or another was persecuted or outright killed in the name of religion and belief. This too is fact.
As far as holy texts of any kind: God did not take a pen and write down anything on paper. It was written by a man, and fallible. This too is true and a fact on every major religion. God may have inspired the writing, but it was Man who put it down on paper, it was man who made changes and as it was stated and agreed on, man is fallible. By the very postings: The Koran, or Quar'an, the Holy Bible, all of the Buddhist Sutras, all of it, by the very fact man wrote it down, is thus fallible in its own nature and being. You still did not prove that God wrote the Koran, as there is still doubt as to that. You have yet to prove that what was stated in the prior posts that I have made is wrong or in error.