Islam is the best DEMOCRACY (NOT Western Democracy)

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

You are right.

But it is very hard when any disagreement with the OP and his supporters results in accusations of trolling and ignorance instead of reasoned and respected debate.

The whole premise of the title of this thread has been shattered.

Islam is the antithesis of Democracy and any form of society that was governed by the beliefs and laws of Allah as dictated to Mohammd and eventually recorded as The Koran would be a Theocracy.
A truly Islamic state can not exist as a Democracy.

Your whole argument revolves around Islam being a Theocracy therefore can't be Democracy.

You understand exactly what I meant by Democracy, as I explained in my second post in this thread, yet you continually claim it is a Theocracy therefore you win.

Jesus Christ, even if it is a Theocracy, people choose that Theocracy which makes it a Democracy because the ultimate control is on individual level.

You can continually say it is a Theocracy, but what is to gain from the continuation of such idiocy which does not lead the discussion forward at all, but to make us both look like parrots repeating ourselves.

reply to post by sdcigarpig

The problem that I see with any religious system being claimed as a good idea of a government system is that it is not a democracy, rather it is an olgarchy, a system of government that is run by the religious part of society, and not that by the people

Many assumptions are made in this thread, and this is an example of it:

I clearly stated that the Quran is the constitution, Islam is the nation, Muslim is the citizen.

You choose to become a Muslim, it is your option.

And no, the government isn't ruled by the religious part of the society, that is cultural.

The government is supposed to be ruled by any one Islam sees capable of ruling.

Not religious, it can be from any back ground, from any professions, the only condition is, for you to be a citizen of Islam.

Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
This is perhaps the stupidest thread I have ever seen.

Muslims will go to any length to spread Islam. This example shows that muslims will even compare their system to democracy and the Constitution even though they are the antithesis of Islam. Do not but into this Islamic lying. The Koran and the Constitution are not amenable to each other.

Islam is incompatible with Western Civilization. Always has been, always will be.

Adherents to Islam should either apostate or work to eliminate Jihad from their "religion".

But I know you got the point right, keep playing dumb.

I'm not saying Islam is compatible with Western Civilization, I'm saying Islam has a better Democracy, or a system of choice than Western Democracy.

The comparison is for better understand, if I didn't compare, you wouldn't even have a clue of what I said because I know you live in your own world, and others live in theirs.

Originally posted by oozyism
You can continually say it is a Theocracy, but what is to gain from the continuation of such idiocy which does not lead the discussion forward at all, but to make us both look like parrots repeating ourselves.

Hey 00Z..

Take it easy there Gal, You'll blow a blood vessel or cause cerebral hemorrhaging. Not everybody is going to agree with your definition. You may as well relax. Go to town and enjoy the fruits of Islam. Just don't get caught out after dark alone without your burka or an escort.

When you get hauled in front of the council explain to them about how Islam is a Democracy.


[edit on 14-7-2010 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by Yissachar1
Yes.. Set up this islamic utopia, get all of islam in one place then nuke it out of existence.. Instant world peace

[edit on 14-7-2010 by Yissachar1]

What if your daughter becomes a Muslim, a legitimate question to a hateful solution.

It's not as easy as you say.

If the individual chooses to leave Islam, they become an Apostate.

The punishment of the apostate according to Islamic law is death.

Link to article with referrences to islamic scholars.

Wikipedia version

Although the Quran does not list this as a specific punishment, it is the opinion of Islamic legal scholars that death for apostates is correct.

That's not too democratic.






[edit on 14-7-2010 by Wildbob77]

reply to post by SeekerForLight

How can anyone possibly think you can live inside of islam and not be a muslim and expect to be treated fairly? Like the laws of these lands would simply not apply to someone who happens to think things like women should hold office, or gay teenagers shouldnt be tortured to death?

Don't label everything you see Muslims doing as Islamic. That is the first problem I saw in your post.

Second you can't live under Islam without following Islamic laws, Islam is a nation, if you want to live under it without wanting the citizenship (hence becoming a Muslim), then you will have to abide by Islamic laws.

That is like any nation on this Earth, you live under China, you must follow their laws, and abide by them, before you go to China, you must agree that you will abide by those laws, if you don't you will be punished accordingly. In Islamic nation it is the same, before you go there, they will make an agreement with you, without protocols, we are all animals.

This would be a theocracy, and so would be like Iran. And as far as I am aware, muslim or not, being gay in Iran is a death sentence... Because thats what the Quran says. Humorous though.

That is not true, you are making assumptions again based on what you saw on TV, you should understand that there is a huge misconception in regards to Islam in Western societies, that is exactly why I made the comparison to at least reduce that misconception.

There is no death penalty for GAY individuals in the Quran, that is an out right lie, if someone told you, but if you were lead to that assumption through television, then sure I understand, propaganda is propaganda.

reply to post by sdcigarpig

Yes men are fallible, however here is the challenge of the day: Prove that the Qur'an was from God.

The evidence is within the Quran, I'll bring you the most complicated one since you sound like a genius:

In the Quran it states Angels are created from Light, Light has a speed:

Speed of Light = 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day
1400 years ago it was stated in the Quran (Koran, the book of Islam) that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years, that is, 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day. Outside gravitational fields 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day turned out to be the known speed of light!

www.speed-light.info...


Read the whole thing, this is for your thoughts to be provokes because it seems you are the only one who doesn't show a hateful manner towards Islam.

reply to post by oozyism


If you leave Islam, you are an apostate and deserving of death. I am free to choose only if I'm prepared to accept death because someone says I cannot choose my own life?

reply to post by oozyism


There is no place for Democracy in Islam.

Islam is an all encompassing belief system which dictates nearly every aspect of a followers life.
Even the illusion that we call democracy allows for a certain amount of free will, thought and choice.
These are anathemas to the vast majority of current interpretations of Islam, and there are plenty of them.

There is no such thing as true or real democracy as it was invented and practiced by the Greeks.

Most of us live in (including the United States) democratic republics where the only say you have in governance is an extremely limited one involving who will represent you and hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions of people along with you, who then does have a greater say in governance and it’s policies.

This is not democracy.

Democracy, is every person, weighing in, on every issue, and being heard, and having a vote.

This exists no where on the planet.

Calling how we are governed democracy, is like calling a sinner a saint, you can do it, and some people will believe it, but it simply ain’t so!


[edit on 14/7/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by Wildbob77


As I said previously, Muslims don't define Islam, the Quran does.

The Quran is so to say the constitution of an Islamic nation.

Muslim is the citizen.

You already admit it is not in the Quran, therefore there is no need to argue.

Those who turn away from Islam is mentioned in the Quran, and it doesn't say to kill them, infact it says in the Quran let them enjoy the pleasures of this life.

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"

If you reject it then GOD will punish you in the here after, and ofcurse you won't be a citizen of Islam anymore because you do not meet the conditions.

reply to post by oozyism
Is there ANY penalty for GAY individuals in the Quaran?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Thanks for the humor, I won't go town, but will go outside for a sigie, ohh GOSH.

Yeah, going to my town's main town today, they call it G-Town, gonna wear all blue, and beat up some Western Gangsta wanna be, wish me luck

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by oozyism

 

There is no place for Democracy in Islam.

Islam is an all encompassing belief system which dictates nearly every aspect of a followers life.
Even the illusion that we call democracy allows for a certain amount of free will, thought and choice.
These are anathemas to the vast majority of current interpretations of Islam, and there are plenty of them.

It doesn't govern every aspect of your life, go read the Quran then come back, you are still making baseless claims.

Wait, I bet you haven't heard this one on FOX news, did you know Islam allows you to become a doctor, or a engineer, or a chef, or a nurse, or a police officer, or a millitary officer, or a kungfu fighter, or a ninja warrior zzz.

Still going back and forth but me no see, me no go forward, me no English.

reply to post by oozyism


But in your idyllic Islamic 'Democracy' your religion will always control your life and your government.

And what of those 'Muslims' who you fail to recognise due to their different interpretation of The Koran etc, where do they fit into your grand scheme?

reply to post by oozyism


You can not justify what is done in the name of Islam so you reject anyone who does not share your belief.

You also lie. I cannot be thrown out of the US for what I say or believe. We are not slaves of the law, we are protected from bad people by the law. I can never be jailed for my beliefs or punished for them. I can only be punished if I hurt other innocent people or try to force my beliefs on them.

I know what you are saying here is not meant for us. Propaganda is for internal consumption.

Stoning is only practiced by Islam now. We advanced beyond that vile, disgusting practice long ago. We progressed and learned while the Isamic world remains in the Dark Ages of forced religion and the practice of abusing women.

You ignore what is happening around you because you are in denial. You ignore that Muslims are slaughtering other Muslims over ideological differences daily. No other Religion is doing that in the modern world.

You can reject me for my belief that Love is the answer and that God, Allah, intended for me to be free and have free will. You can reject me for believing that any Religion that rules by force and denies free choice is serving the other, evil Master. That is your choice. You cannot change the fact so many women are being abused in the name of Islam and so many are being slaughtered in the name of Islam. The proof is in the news daily. The evil is in the news daily.

Truth will be a thorn in your side your whole life. You may continue to preach what your ordered to preach, but the truth remains the same. Truth is eternal; evil Religions are but specks in the fabric of time.

Your arguments are so weak you have to dig back into old history to find a way to criticize the people who advanced beyond those vile beliefs. Your argument relies on you blaming people living right now who are doing no wrong, for the practices of people long dead; while your world still practices those evil ways, right now today.

None of your Straw-men will change the truth ever. No person has the right to dictate to another what they should believe. No Government has that right. Only evil would ever conceive of such a thing as killing their fellow believer over an argument of what a vague paragraph of text in a book means and yet you defend it as if it is not happening in the Islamic World all around you, every day.

Perhaps someday the blinders will be lifted from your eyes. Perhaps someday you will learn to think for yourself, without others telling you what to think. Until then you are welcome in our world with open arms, even though we are not welcome in yours. It is your fruits that define you. If your fruit is violence and intolerance that is who you really are.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by oozyism

 

But in your idyllic Islamic 'Democracy' your religion will always control your life and your government.

Just like your constitution governs your government. And just like your laws governs your life.

And what of those 'Muslims' who you fail to recognise due to their different interpretation of The Koran etc, where do they fit into your grand scheme?

You have said that ten times now, but you haven't provided those interpretations yet.

reply to post by oozyism

Islam is a nation

I seee , so you are admiting that islam as a nation has a political aspect , (which is denied by many muslims and their appologists) and that islam is indistinguishable from government thus a religious government , a theocracy. If that is the case how can islamic immigrants intergrate , they are a seperate nation within a host nation , with asperation of self government , shariah law , away from the host nation? The NWO use you to divide and weaken the west.

That is like any nation on this Earth, you live under China, you must follow their laws, and abide by them, before you go to China, you must agree that you will abide by those laws, if you don't you will be punished accordingly. In Islamic nation it is the same, before you go there, they will make an agreement with you, without protocols, we are all animals.

As for the animal part , speak for yourself.

And why is it that muslims do the complete opposite , practice what you preach , the uigars of china don't behave themselves. Their another group of separatist muslims. Muslims , either invade or emmigrate aggressively , and multiply and complain and expect special rights and privilages. When they can't get their way they get a hissy fit and start a jihad or some subversive action. No they do not allow people to reject islam , that's grounds for jihad and getting you're head shaved(all the way off).

[edit on 14-7-2010 by De La Valletta]

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by oozyism

 

You can not justify what is done in the name of Islam so you reject anyone who does not share your belief.

People can do things in the name of Islam if they wish, hey you can even rape in the name of Islam, that is your choice, but the ultimate point is that those things are not condone by Islam.

Once again, Islam defines a Muslim, not the other way around.

You also lie. I cannot be thrown out of the US for what I say or believe. We are not slaves of the law, we are protected from bad people by the law. I can never be jailed for my beliefs or punished for them. I can only be punished if I hurt other innocent people or try to force my beliefs on them.

There are several reasons why a naturalized US citizen could lose his or her US citizenship. We feel it’s important to summarize these reasons. As a naturalized citizen, you went to all the trouble to get your US citizenship in the first place. We’d hate to see you lose it merely because you did something wrong you did not know about.

Islam also protects people from bad people. Where are you going with this.

I know what you are saying here is not meant for us. Propaganda is for internal consumption.

This is communication with Westerners since they look at the world through the eyes of Westernism, that is why I made that comparison between Islam and Democracy, I made a comparison between the Quran and constitution, and I made a comparison between citizenship and Muslim.

Stoning is only practiced by Islam now. We advanced beyond that vile, disgusting practice long ago. We progressed and learned while the Isamic world remains in the Dark Ages of forced religion and the practice of abusing women.

Islam doesn't condone stoning, culture does.

You ignore what is happening around you because you are in denial. You ignore that Muslims are slaughtering other Muslims over ideological differences daily. No other Religion is doing that in the modern world.

I'm not in denial, I know exactly what people are doing in the name of Islam, how can I avoid it with Western media?

This not denial, this is clarification, that Islam doesn't condone the actions it doesn't condone. You can't say Islam condones an action because Muslims do it. You must go to Quran and prove it.

You can reject me for my belief that Love is the answer and that God, Allah, intended for me to be free and have free will. You can reject me for believing that any Religion that rules by force and denies free choice is serving the other, evil Master. That is your choice. You cannot change the fact so many women are being abused in the name of Islam and so many are being slaughtered in the name of Islam. The proof is in the news daily. The evil is in the news daily.

1. Islam doesn't rule by force, I have said this many times in this thread, you can choose to become Muslim, and you can choose to leave Islam if you wish.

2. Once again, Islam defines Muslims, not the other way around.

Truth will be a thorn in your side your whole life. You may continue to preach what your ordered to preach, but the truth remains the same. Truth is eternal; evil Religions are but specks in the fabric of time.

You haven't provided any evidence of Islamic evil which you so proudly like to make proclamation of. Once again, not Muslims, but Islam. Read the Quran then come back.

Your arguments are so weak you have to dig back into old history to find a way to criticize the people who advanced beyond those vile beliefs. Your argument relies on you blaming people living right now who are doing no wrong, for the practices of people long dead; while your world still practices those evil ways, right now today.

Don't confuse culture with Islam.

None of your Straw-men will change the truth ever. No person has the right to dictate to another what they should believe. No Government has that right. Only evil would ever conceive of such a thing as killing their fellow believer over an argument of what a vague paragraph of text in a book means and yet you defend it as if it is not happening in the Islamic World all around you, every day.

Once again you can choose to become Muslim, that individual freedom to choose is best Democracy around, no need for majority/minority option.

Perhaps someday the blinders will be lifted from your eyes. Perhaps someday you will learn to think for yourself, without others telling you what to think. Until then you are welcome in our world with open arms, even though we are not welcome in yours. It is your fruits that define you. If your fruit is violence and intolerance that is who you really are.

I'm thinking for myself lol, if I didn't I would be blindly following some mullah and accepting all his words as truth.

But we all know Muslims have been corrupted by culture, not by Islam.