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Islam is the best DEMOCRACY (NOT Western Democracy)

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posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism
You're protected by Islam to practice your religion. Just because people are ignorant of it... Don't know what to it.


Isn't that just a nice way of saying that you are not protected by anything if you are in opposition to Islam? Another one of those "Self-Defence means preventing others from dishonouring Islam" ideas?

[edit on 16/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]




posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


It's jerks like you that are going to allow Sharia Law to creep into the United States.

Just what have I asked or stated here that is not a valid question or is not true?

And as for my avatar.....I will not bow in front of these so called Muslims like the OP who are clearly trying to gain momentum for their twisted agenda.

And again, what have I asked or stated in this thread that is not true?

My hatred?

Believe me brother, I have more animosity towards you right now than I have against the OP. People can see right through his BS. Yours is a lot more tricky.

Answer the damned question!


[edit on 16-7-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth
 


Sharia law isn't coming to the US at least not Texas. Anyone who tried to enforce that backwards crap would be shot on sight. With bullets dipped in pigs blood.

EDIT TO ADD LAUGHING SMILEYS... (we shouldn't feed a pipe dream that I'm sure some Mudlims are having about the US and where they think it should go... Sharia law - LMFAO yeah - that's going to happen...)




[edit on 16-7-2010 by mf_luder]



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by mf_luder
reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth
 


Sharia law isn't coming to the US at least not Texas. Anyone who tried to enforce that backwards crap would be shot on sight. With bullets dipped in pigs blood.






Backward?! Read your damn post!



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by nenothtu
 


1- Democracy is an operation system agreed, but also you haven't refuted the point that it is also a belief.. Are you saying Islam is not an operating system?

2- Everything you are saying is a derivative of hate, it seems you fear Islam therefore would demean it with any means necessary.

34 It seems you don't care whether people choose Islam or not, you don't want it no matter what, that doesn't make you a Democratic as well. But you know what I mean when I say Democratic right? You don't let people choose.
4- Islam has no physical borders, as I said previously borders don't work, people choose whether they want to be governed by it from individual level. Just because fear has been installed in your head doesn't give you the right to stop others from choosing. Future generations can choose Islam if they wish, many are already doing it.



Islamic boundaries grow and shrink based on acceptance of Islam, not because of expansionist ideas.

5- That being said, what I suspect you are doing is that, you are trying to stop the Islamic growth, stop its boundaries from getting bigger and bigger, I have seen so many in New Zealand, specially the aborigines and the Islander communities become an Islamic citizen.

See the beauty of Islam? You can't force it to stop by force, but only by pen.

6- It was not a totalitarian dictatorship before people voted for Hitler, get it?

[edit on 16-7-2010 by oozyism]

1) Democracy is not a belief, it is a political system. A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections.
The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life.
People do not worship democracy, nor are there temples to such. Democracy has nothing to do with religion or theological belief. This is fact. The Koran is a religious text, based off of a theological belief in an all powerful deity, (That may or may not exist.) Both of those are facts.
2) Not everything that is posted is based off of fear. I do not fear those who are devot muslim, I live in a predominately muslim community. I do not trust them or their motives, but I do not fear such, so that statement of yours is not fact.
3) Actually your original post is that Islam is the best Democracy, not western democracy. The fact is that under the Western style of Democracy, you have the right and freedom to explore, believe, say or state what you desire without fear of reprisal. Where the laws are based solely on the Koran, people have neither the right or freedom to do such, and when they do, it is on the penalty of death and or assissination. This is fact.
4) Yes Islam does have physical borders, Islam may be a major religion, however, there are still countries in the world where the practice of such is not encouraged, and it is often ignored by the general population. In most western countries, you can be a muslim, but you still have to follow the laws of the country first, the rules of the Koran second. This is fact.
5) Funny you mention stopping it by force. For every violent act done by a muslim, or those who follow Islam, for every report of something so abhorrent to human nature, and for every riot, where innocent people are attacked, in a western nation, and for every report where the abuses of human rights are well documented, there are people who will turn away, alot more than those who will seek to join. This is fact.
6) I hate to break it to you, but all politicians will lie to get into office, telling the population what they want to hear, and then once in office, will either go with the public, or go against such. Dictatores are like the hard core islamic clerics, once in power, it takes death to remove them, as non would dare speak out against such. However it is the abuses of religious authority that is far worse, as those in religious authority uses fear to get what they want. This is fact.
Well once again I have taken your arguments, and have used facts to disprove your arguments. Funny how you do not try to argue for your point or even try to prove me wrong on any point I have made. The truth, no matter where it comes from, is still the truth. I am speaking the truth, using the fact to back up the arguments I have made, are you?



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism

1- Democracy is an operation system agreed, but also you haven't refuted the point that it is also a belief.. Are you saying Islam is not an operating system?


I guess maybe I didn't say it loud enough, so here goes - DEMOCRACY IS NOT A "BELIEF.

Was that better? There are no deities in a democracy. No one worships a democracy as if it were a deity. A democracy can be proven by empirical, verifiable, repeatable experimentation.

No, a democracy is not a belief, it's a provable fact.



2- Everything you are saying is a derivative of hate, it seems you fear Islam therefore would demean it with any means necessary.


Nope. Not hate, pity. If I feared or hated islam, I wouldn't have any islamic friends. I do have islamic friends, several of them. I just can't be too candid about my own history with them, because you just never know what's REALLY in a man's heart.

Anything you perceive as "demeaning" of islam is purely unintentional, I assure you. I call things as I see them, just as muslims do against christian beliefs, just as jewish folks do against islamic and christians beliefs, just as folks of any religion do. I don't see it as "demeaning" any more than muslims see the Qur'anic quote inscribed inside the dome of the rock as "demeaning" of christians.

It is what it is, I believe what I believe, and it would be dishonest of me to claim a belief other than what I hold, now wouldn't it? I am and have been a lot of things, but dishonest doesn't reside among them. I've got enough faults that DO apply, without piling on those that don't.



34 It seems you don't care whether people choose Islam or not,


You're right, I don't care what they do. Religion is a personal matter to my mind (you'll note that nowhere have I told you what my religion is now, and have been pretty meticulous in avoiding it), any one is entitled to take up any religion they like. What they believe is not MY problem nor is it my joy.

Problems arise when they try to make their religion into a ruling system, and expect me to abide by THEIR religious beliefs as governance. Religion is religion, government is government, and never the twain shall meet - and both be able to survive. The christians have a saying that applies here, I think. It's a saying of Jesus, whom muslims claim to revere as well. He said "render unto Caesar those things which belong to Caesar, and render unto God those things which belong to God." That, to me, is the perfect illustration of the separation of church and state, and directly contravenes islam as a holistic system.



you don't want it no matter what, that doesn't make you a Democratic as well. But you know what I mean when I say Democratic right? You don't let people choose.


You're right, I don't want it at all. Been there, done that, checked it off and moved on. No, I'm NOT 'democratic', and neither is islam, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't care what RELIGION others choose, but they will NOT force their religion upon me as a form of government.



4- Islam has no physical borders, as I said previously borders don't work, people choose whether they want to be governed by it from individual level. Just because fear has been installed in your head doesn't give you the right to stop others from choosing. Future generations can choose Islam if they wish, many are already doing it.


Islam as a RELIGION has no national borders, correct. Nations have borders as political entities, religions do not. When a religion tries to insinuate itself as a 'nation', it damn well better have some physical borders. Otherwise, the rest of us have nowhere to go to in order to opt out of it, and there will be trouble. BIG trouble, the likes of which muslims have never yet seen.

I have no desire to stop any individuals from following the religion of their choice. Likewise, they will NEVER force me to follow their religion. That's pretty simple and straightforward. I will NOT pay the jizyah, regardless of my location or what other folks want me to do. The jizyah in itself is following islam, and I'll have no part of it. IF you think it isn't, explain how paying the jizyah by non-muslims to muslims doesn't involve a segregation by religion.



Islamic boundaries grow and shrink based on acceptance of Islam, not because of expansionist ideas.


Tell that to the Sassanids, the Byzantines, and any number of others who were "peacefully converted". Tell that to bin Laden, who has stated he will stop attacking if the US will pay the jizyah tribute to him, or convert.

Don't tell it to me, tell it to folks in a position to enforce that idyllic notion, or to the victims of the expansionism. I'm not a victim of it. I escaped.



5- That being said, what I suspect you are doing is that, you are trying to stop the Islamic growth, stop its boundaries from getting bigger and bigger, I have seen so many in New Zealand, specially the aborigines and the Islander communities become an Islamic citizen.


Yes, trying to stop it's expansionism as a political animal masquerading as a religion. When it becomes a pure religion - and it will, or it will cease to exist - I have no problems with it.



See the beauty of Islam? You can't force it to stop by force, but only by pen.


You're wrong, it CAN be stopped by force, and has been before, at Tours, among other places. It would be wise of islam to recognize that, before the rest of the world has to bring sufficient force to bear. That will only go poorly for muslims, and I'd truly hate to see that.



6- It was not a totalitarian dictatorship before people voted for Hitler, get it?


Oh, I DO get it. If islam is 'voted' in as a government, it will make Hitlerian totalitarianism seem as a mere child playing in the dirt.

It always has.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism

You're protected by Islam to practice your religion. Just because people are ignorant of it... Don't know what to it.

Second line.


You're 'protected' in islam to practice your own religion as long as you pay the 'protection money'.

In America, we call that a 'protection racket', and it's always run by organized crime.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


It's jerks like you that are going to allow Sharia Law to creep into the United States.

Just what have I asked or stated here that is not a valid question or is not true?

And as for my avatar.....I will not bow in front of these so called Muslims like the OP who are clearly trying to gain momentum for their twisted agenda.

And again, what have I asked or stated in this thread that is not true?

My hatred?

Believe me brother, I have more animosity towards you right now than I have against the OP. People can see right through his BS. Yours is a lot more tricky.

Answer the damned question!


[edit on 16-7-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]


1. Did I say that you lied? Why are you cunningly attempting to put words into my mouth by asking me a question you yourself condemned as evident by your post that I need not even reply, if not because out of pity for you?


2.Brother, why hate me, who is only your brother and not your enemy or had hurt or harmed you?

But it doesn't matter what is your animosity towards me. Better me than someone else you will focus your rage and irrationalities upon, for I am only an insignificant nobody. And when your rage is spent, may you better reflect on what you have done.


I do not hate you and will not, as long as you cause others no hurt or harm. Not that I am meek, but because I want you to comprehend compassion, empathy and love, that was given to me by my familly, relatives, friends and even strangers, something that could only be divinely gifted. You and I have so much similarities of common aspirations to achieve together than to dwell on hate and fighting each other..

Trickiness is but an admission that you do not know how to deal with what I had open-heartedly, hidden nothing, spoken to you, a reality that you are not ready to accept, of which I understand fully. It is your life and only you can live it, with its benefits as wells its consequences for your own actions...

Calm down, my brother. I humbly apologise if my previous post or this had angered you but I will take back nothing, for it is an honest view from me, and perhaps if I am a better writer, I could be less blunt, but then, the message would still be the same...

But this thread is not about you and me. Let us both not pride our egos so highly that we are more important than the message to be discussed, and worthy to distract others by this petty squabble from you.



Utimately, as I had mentioned, your hatred which begets irrationality shows, and takes shape in this latest incarnation of Sharia law creeping, or assumed that it will be the law of the land. This insanity is beyond logical comprehension that even I, an open minded person, cannot envison happening.

Perhaps in the far future, and that would take more than force or sweet words to change a People of diverse immigrant culture that dates far back beyond the religion of Islam. There is nothing to fear. When you start to fear, you only prove that something is lacking in you.

Are you proving that your religion/system of worship is not strong enough to counter that of another religion/system of worship, that you need to ramp up and use hate to protect that which is only natural love, peace and hope, a comfort and solace for many and all, from our Creator?



[edit on 16-7-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


I don't think you get it neno and obviously I don't expect you to get it. Hate makes you blind, I have been there, done that ^^

I was in a part of my life where hate ruled over my ability to think clearly, without that thinking there is no understanding.

You damn well know you choose Islam, you damn well know Islam doesn't allow itself to be forcefully injected upon you, and you damn well know Islam defines Muslims and not the other way around.

You keep avoiding these issues by presenting your sentiment in regards to the so called Muslims and their actions.

Already been explained.

Jizya has already been explained.

Choice has already been explained.

Democracy being a faith has already been explained, any thing you have faith in, is faith. People (hence you), who have belief that Democracy is a good system of governance, believe in that faith.

The only thing which needs to be explained now is the word games you are playing, but again, there is no need for me to explain because you don't have the tendency to understand.

That being said, good day/night to you neno



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu


You're 'protected' in islam to practice your own religion as long as you pay the 'protection money'.

In America, we call that a 'protection racket', and it's always run by organized crime.


You're protected by Islam, as stated in the Quran, the constitution of Islam.

Jizya already been explained.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by sdcigarpig
 


NO, Islam doesn't have Temples, nor do people worship Islam. People have Temples for GOD (a Place where people can worship GOD), and Worship GOD.

That is the two things which stood out in your post. The rest can be debunked by the notion that Islam defines a Muslim, not the other way around (if you got any questions, read the Quran then come back). Already been explained in my thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:04 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 



You damn well know you choose Islam, you damn well know Islam doesn't allow itself to be forcefully injected upon you, and you damn well know Islam defines Muslims and not the other way around.



Um yeah. That pretty much just ended whatever credibility you were trying to establish. You speak of words games, but it is you who plays the games. You are trying to act as if Muslims have NOTHING to do with Islam in our current world - today. In that aspect, you are seriously either sheltered beyond belief or are just plain stupid.

I would follow up by providing you with a host of links to examples of killings, bombings, stonings, [insert your favorite barbaric method here] that was perpetrated by Muslims toward people who don't follow Islam.

But you'll just ignore that.

Let's take the Muslims out of the picture.

Okay - then you're left with a silly old book that has little to no bearing on the real world. Congrats. Also you played in a nice way to just ignore and cover all of the atrocities committed by "followers of Islam" - since you don't like the word "Muslim" over the past few decades. Almost a shining liberal argument tactic on your part. Let's remove the major bad aspect that EVERYONE around the globe has seen and heard of and let's just forget about that so I can make my argument for my silly old book.

Get the hell out of here.

Don't ever let me catch your kind cursing at my friends again, either.

I have your IPs - all of you.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by mf_luder
reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth
 


Sharia law isn't coming to the US at least not Texas. Anyone who tried to enforce that backwards crap would be shot on sight. With bullets dipped in pigs blood.

EDIT TO ADD LAUGHING SMILEYS... (we shouldn't feed a pipe dream that I'm sure some Mudlims are having about the US and where they think it should go... Sharia law - LMFAO yeah - that's going to happen...)




[edit on 16-7-2010 by mf_luder]


This is gonna hurt, here is a fact.

Islam is the fastest growing belief in America.






posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by mf_luder
reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth
 


Sharia law isn't coming to the US at least not Texas. Anyone who tried to enforce that backwards crap would be shot on sight. With bullets dipped in pigs blood.

EDIT TO ADD LAUGHING SMILEYS... (we shouldn't feed a pipe dream that I'm sure some Mudlims are having about the US and where they think it should go... Sharia law - LMFAO yeah - that's going to happen...)




[edit on 16-7-2010 by mf_luder]


This is gonna hurt, here is a fact.

Islam is the fastest growing belief in America.





You try to bring in that Sharia bull and see what happens to you and your masked friends. Trust me chuckles, there's a reason we all have guns.

Just for crap like you to see the business end when you try to force something down our throats.

The NE may be full of non-aggressionists but you try and bring that to Texas or any other Southern state and you'll just be a bad memory floating in the dust of time.

Be warned.

If Texas secedes - we no longer fall under Geneva Conventions or any UN bs treaty. You will be made to suffer in ways you can't imagine. I personally - being agnostic - have NO QUALMS taking your deepest darkest religious beliefs and using them against you in ways that you can't imagine.

This isn't Europe.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 


You can't debate, nor can you discuss, which forces me debunk your post once more with this line.

Islam defines a Muslim, not the other way around.

If you can argue that point then I'll take all the atrocities committed by supposed Muslims.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by sdcigarpig
 


NO, Islam doesn't have Temples, nor do people worship Islam. People have Temples for GOD (a Place where people can worship GOD), and Worship GOD.

That is the two things which stood out in your post. The rest can be debunked by the notion that Islam defines a Muslim, not the other way around (if you got any questions, read the Quran then come back). Already been explained in my thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Gee, I guess that it is true, a follower of Islam and a devout muslim can and will lie to any who are not a devout muslim or follower of Islam.
The Koran is a holy book. This is fact, it is the truth, and funny how you use it for when you want to make a point, yet refuse to accept what is.
•The Qur’an (pronounced ; القرآن ', literally “the recitation”) is the central religious verbal text of Islam, also sometimes transliterated as Quran, Qur’ān, Koran, Al-Coran or Al-Qur’ān'''
•A mosque is a place of worship for followers of Islam. Muslims often refer to the mosque by its Arabic name
Well lets look at what is fact: Qur'an is a holy book of religious texts of Islam, and a Mosque is a place of worship for the followers of Islam, ie a Chruch, and have clerics or a clergy who will preach to the followes of Islam to explain what is in the Qur'an and the interpretations of such.
I guess that just proves what I have been saying all along. Islam and the muslim faith forming a government is a Theocracy run by an olagarchy, and thus is not a democracy. When you can admit the truth, then perhaps there is hope. I have proved yet again the argument against your post, and the truth of what is in opposition.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by mf_luder
 


You can't debate, nor can you discuss, which forces me debunk your post once more with this line.

Islam defines a Muslim, not the other way around.

If you can argue that point then I'll take all the atrocities committed by supposed Muslims.


Islam defines a Muslim.

Buddhism defines a Buddhist.

Hinduism defines a Hindu.

Wicca defines a Witch.

So by your logic - Christianity defines a Christian, not the other way around? So the crusades are excusable, then? Cool.


Okay - I guess you're right.

Cheers!



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 


No body is forcing anything on you. If you were drunk I would understand, because I drink a lot too, but if you are straight, sober as you can be, and you speak in that manner, you have mental issues


Plus, it could be your daughter, or son who might choose to become a Muslim.

Interesting thought.

Very interesting.



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 




Islam defines a Muslim.

Buddhism defines a Buddhist.

Hinduism defines a Hindu.

Wicca defines a Witch.

So by your logic - Christianity defines a Christian, not the other way around? So the crusades are excusable, then? Cool.

Okay - I guess you're right.

Cheers!


IS that all you have as an argument?

The Crusades?? :WOW:

SLAYER, I will borrow this one from you:

EPIC FAIL!



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by mf_luder
 


No body is forcing anything on you. If you were drunk I would understand, because I drink a lot too, but if you are straight, sober as you can be, and you speak in that manner, you have mental issues


Plus, it could be your daughter, or son who might choose to become a Muslim.

Interesting thought.

Very interesting.


Very interesting thought indeed.

However.

I'm going to raise said hypothetical child to see through the contradictions and inadequate proof that your religion and others have to support their claims.

That being said, what makes you so sure your religion is the right one out of all the others on Earth?

Just curious.

What drives you? Where is your faith coming from? Were you actually intelligent enough to have sought this path for yourself or are you just following along with old Pops and his beliefs?




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