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Islam is the best DEMOCRACY (NOT Western Democracy)

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posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


Observe: Adhere to, follow, pay tribute to.




posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:22 PM
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For those of you rolled up in the massive debate I would like to also once again say that in order to prove Islam is a "democracy" - use something other than quotes from your book. Seeing that most religious texts are a) written by men, b) contradictory within their own contexts and c) non-applicable to actual government, let's try to focus on what the Muslims currently act like in regards to equal rights, the judicial process, quality of life, and separation of church and state.

That is all.




posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by oozyism
 


Observe: Adhere to, follow, pay tribute to.


The answer Islamic law.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
But ofcurse you gonna come back



"You know it, baby! I'm like a bad penny, ain't I? It's almost... islamic... the way I just don't give up!"



I'm sorry I've been reading along and when I read that I Laughed so hard that I coughed up my hot coffee and it came out through my nose.

It burned.


[edit on 15-7-2010 by SLAYER69]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 


Islam as practiced includes not only the Qur'an, but also the hadith, sunnah, etc. Properly, to get a real feel for islam, ALL of the islamic sources should be included in the debate.

Oozyism tries to hobble that by insisting on "Qur'an only", but there's plenty of illustrative material there, too.

Shari'a Law is IMPERATIVE in the debate, as that's how islam is ruled. They will try to limit it, and say that "islam defines muslims, not muslims define islam", but the fact remains that NO other religion is ruled by shari'a.

There's a reason that it's called "islamic law", instead of "zoroastrian law" or what have you. By trying to thus hobble the debate, the muslims here are actually opening the RESTRICTIVE nature of islam up for all the world to see and evaluate.

So, in this case, I have no problems with playing by their rules. Maybe we can convince them to trash islamic law in deed as well as word? Otherwise, why would they be trying to hide from it and keep it out of the conversation, saying "oh, that's just local customs, that's not islam!"

Then GET RID OF IT!



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by oozyism
 


Observe: Adhere to, follow, pay tribute to.


The answer Islamic law.



The question was "what religion do NZ and China force citizens (and even non-citizens) to adhere to" and the answer is "islamic law"?




posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:44 PM
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Islam is not a Democracy. It is a Theocracy when it becomes the law of the land.

It is barbaric and murderous.

Women being stoned to death. Amputations. Women being lashed to death in public because they were unfortunate enough to have been raped. Be-headings, torture chambers, beatings, etc. etc. etc.

And these jokers want to bring Sharia Law to America........When pigs fly.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 




The question was "what religion do NZ and China force citizens (and even non-citizens) to adhere to" and the answer is "islamic law"?



NZ and China doesn't force any religion on people, nor does Islam.

Islam has laws, just like China and NZ.

The only thing which is forced on citizen is laws full stop.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by nenothtu
 




The question was "what religion do NZ and China force citizens (and even non-citizens) to adhere to" and the answer is "islamic law"?



NZ and China doesn't force any religion on people, nor does Islam.

Islam has laws, just like China and NZ.

The only thing which is forced on citizen is laws full stop.



Don't ignore my post because the truth hurts.

Back up your claims that "Islam is the best democracy." - provide some counter arguments.

Ignoring the truth doesn't make it go away.

Sorry.




posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by nenothtu
 




The question was "what religion do NZ and China force citizens (and even non-citizens) to adhere to" and the answer is "islamic law"?



NZ and China doesn't force any religion on people, nor does Islam.

Islam has laws, just like China and NZ.

The only thing which is forced on citizen is laws full stop.



Which laws, Islamic laws? How is that NOT forcing islam on them, in direct contravention of the Qur'anic prohibition that "there is no compulsion in religion"?

Further, the other countries do not apply in this debate unless they are forcing religious strictures on their people.

Red. Herring.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 


Your claims are baseless, you posting things you heard from FOX news can't be discussed.

You are talking about supposed Muslim's actions, I have stated at least 10 times in this thread that Islam defines Muslims, not the other way around.

I even made a whole thread about it.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:04 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 




Which laws, Islamic laws? How is that NOT forcing islam on them, in direct contravention of the Qur'anic prohibition that "there is no compulsion in religion"?

Further, the other countries do not apply in this debate unless they are forcing religious strictures on their people.


????

Are you saying there should be no laws?

Islam is the nation.

Muslim is the citizen.

Quran is the constitution.

Every nation has laws, including Islamic nations.

That is not forcing religion on them, that is forcing laws on them.

Connect the dots..

ETA

And you are forgetting that you choose whether you want to live under Islamic laws.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by oozyism]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by mf_luder
 


Your claims are baseless, you posting things you heard from FOX news can't be discussed.

You are talking about supposed Muslim's actions, I have stated at least 10 times in this thread that Islam defines Muslims, not the other way around.

I even made a whole thread about it.


.....

None of the links I provided were from Fox News or any of it's outlets.

The information I provided was gained during the time I was forced to come to that horrid part of the world and work to clean up the crap that "Islam" called civilization.

Now.

Since you can't argue the points and are now trying to state falsely that I pulled my information from Fox News - which none of my links were to...

Let's try again shall we?

Provide counter arguments to the post.

If you can't, then your thread title is a contradiction in that a religion (a backwards one at that) can never function as a "democracy". Period.

The two are different ideas and systems entirely. One's a religion, the other is a form of government. Any system in which a religion is used to form the basis of a government will fail.

Don't believe me?

Look at the middle east.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 


Once again, Islam defines a Muslim not the other way around, what you provided was supposed Muslim actions and claimed it is Islam.

And the middle east is in that situation due to Western mis-management of the area.

It is proven that borders don't work ^^



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism

????

Are you saying there should be no laws?

Islam is the nation.

Muslim is the citizen.

Quran is the constitution.

Every nation has laws, including Islamic nations.

That is not forcing religion on them, that is forcing laws on them.

Connect the dots..


No, I'm saying that religious strictures are just that, not "laws".

Islam is NOT a nation, it's a philosophy, a belief system.

For all intents and purposes, a religion, since the entire system is based on a belief in a particular deity, without which belief it collapses like a house of cards.

Qur'an is NOT a "constitution", it is a religious text. If you think not, try to amend it, as can be done with constitutions.

Muslims are NOT "citizens", they are religious adherents. A "Citizen" has a nation (which islam is NOT), which has borders, trade, etc to go along with it's constitution and laws.

Dar al-harb vs. dart al-islam exists only in the minds of muslims, not the real world.

Imposition of ISLAMIC law IS imposition of religion. It's built right into the very name!

Your turn to connect some dots.

Edit to add:



ETA

And you are forgetting that you choose whether you want to live under Islamic laws.


I'm not forgetting anything at all. Just above here, you said "it's been proven that borders don't work", and elsewhere, even implicitly in THIS thread, you are advocating worldwide islam, a sort of return to the caliphate.

If you were to get your wish, worldwide islam as "the perfect democracy", where do you propose us freedom loving types could go to in order to get away from it, so we could "refuse to live under islamic laws".

I'll tell ya where I'LL go. I'll not budge from the land that is mine, but I'll got straight into WAR.

Again.

[edit on 2010/7/15 by nenothtu]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by mf_luder
 


Once again, Islam defines a Muslim not the other way around, what you provided was supposed Muslim actions and claimed it is Islam.

And the middle east is in that situation due to Western mis-management of the area.

It is proven that borders don't work ^^


LOL, western mis-management?

I'm sorry - did we interrupt the idyllic lifestyle they had over there before we showed up?

What with the energy hording, the gangs of hitmen and randoming testing of weaponry on their own people?

Not to mention the fundamentalist Islam that was going on?

Yeah.

We came in and screwed up paradise.




posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:30 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


Well China and New Zealand? Interesting combination.
Modern day China, lead by Mao Zedong, whose views on religion and religions belief is: Mao Zedong may have been raised in the Buddhist tradition, but he rejected all forms of religion for the atheistic socialism of Marxism-Leninism, which sees organised religion as the 'opiate of the masses'.
Now yes China does have a freedom of religion clause in its constitution, however, there is a wall between church and state there.
Now New Zealands laws and general ideas are based off of: The United Kingdom, who got their ideas on religion from: The United States of America, whose founding fathers decided that there needs to be a seperation of church and state, that a person can believe and worship as they so see fit, but the state is forbidden from interfering in such and that religions organizations are forbidden from getting involved in politics.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


When a Muslim living in a Theocracy goes down to the public square and watches a woman receive 99 lashes because she was unfortunate enough to have been raped, .....Does it add inches to his dick?.....



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


You may think of yourself as intelligent or even wise..this would be a misconception on your part.



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 




No, I'm saying that religious strictures are just that, not "laws".


You know as well as me that Islam has laws, your argument is that it is a belief therefore .. I don't even know what you are trying to say.

Did you know Democracy is also a belief, did you know communism is also a belief.

Ultimately it is your decision which system you want to be governed by. You choose whether you want to be governed by Islam or not.

I have made this clear many times within this thread.

There are people who do not agree with Western Democracy, why? Because it is a belief, just like Islam.

It is your decision at the end.



For all intents and purposes, a religion, since the entire system is based on a belief in a particular deity, without which belief it collapses like a house of cards.


Exactly, if you don't believe Quran is from GOD, then there is no need for you to live under Islamic rules, it is those who believe Quran is from GOD that want to live under Islamic rules.

Once again, I can't stress this enough, you decide whether you want to be ruled by Islam or not. If you do then you will become a citizen of Islam.



I'm not forgetting anything at all. Just above here, you said "it's been proven that borders don't work", and elsewhere, even implicitly in THIS thread, you are advocating worldwide islam, a sort of return to the caliphate.

World Wide Islam based on your individual decision, that is why I stressed many times that Islam is a better Democracy because it allows you to choose at individual level whether you want to accept this system or not.

IN the other hand, let me put this on the table for you, can you vote for dictatorship?

If you want to change the governance system, can you vote to change it from Western Democracy to another type of system?

We all know Western Democracy has its flaws, hence Hitler etc.



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