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ATF: Profiting From Private Gun Sales Is A Crime

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posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:01 PM
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The ATF has created a new class of crime. Profiting from gun sales.

A man was buying guns legally at gun shows, then selling them for a profit in private local sales.

AzCentral reports:


“These were not the type of guns you would generally see someone purchasing to commit a criminal act,” Mangan said, however some of them had been tied to crimes. He did not have specifics.

“Some would qualify as antiques,” Mangan said. “He was deriving a profit from the sales.”


While private two-party gun sales aren’t a crime, a six-month investigation found that Daly was replenishing his inventory and sold firearms at gun shows in Nevada and around Arizona, according to authorities.


The horror.

So, what did the authorities do for the heinous crime of profiting?


About two dozen Maricopa County Sheriff’s deputies and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents clad in bulletproof vests and assault rifles surrounded the home of Robert B. and Lois Daly before 6 a.m. Monday.


God forbid the man makes a profit.

In the Communist USSA, profiting is verboten.

The article makes it out as if he is selling guns without a license, but as you can see, since he wasn't selling wholesale from the manufacturer, he was conducting his business entirely on private two party sales.

All within the law.

Not that the law matters though since its nothing more than arbitrary tyrannical regulations aimed at depriving Americans of firearms by choking the supply of distributors in a mass of meaningless paper work.

I would acquit him of all charges and relish doing it.


[edit on 13-7-2010 by mnemeth1]




posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Uh, why did the ATF do such a thing? Unless they want to see if he has a resellers license/permit...
Other than that it should be the job of the IRS to determine if he made a profit or not??



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:36 PM
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Explanation: Here is the ORIGINAL article...

ATF seizes guns in raid of East Mesa home. (by Nathan Gonzalez) [azcentral.com]

From original source...



ATF Special Agent Thomas Mangan said agents executed a search warrant for more than 1,000 firearms and financial documents showing Robert Daly illegally sold firearms without a federal license. Daly at one point had a valid license, but it expired in 2006, Mangan said.


This thread now has a whole new spin on what was being promoted as a war on profit making in the US by a Communist lead Government!


Personal Disclosure: Maybe he should of paid the US Government the profit they REQUIRED via keeping his Federal License DUES PAID before he went and tried to ILLEGALLY make a profit from the sale of guns!


edited spelling fail [want=went]. soz


[edit on 13-7-2010 by OmegaLogos]



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:38 PM
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Well somthing has to be missing from this story.

As far as I know you can sell as many weapons as you want as a private party. Just can't use a store front to do it.

Whatever happen to: ... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed?

ATF should be a corner store not a goverment agency.



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:40 PM
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the original news article


ATF Special Agent Thomas Mangan said agents executed a search warrant for more than 1,000 firearms and financial documents showing Robert Daly illegally sold firearms without a federal license. Daly at one point had a valid license, but it expired in 2006, Mangan said.

"Many of the guns (that were seized) were marked with a price and were for sale," Mangan said.

While private two-party gun sales aren't a crime, a six-month investigation found that Daly was replenishing his inventory and sold firearms at gun shows in Nevada and around Arizona, according to authorities.

The most recent instance was Sunday at the Crossroads of the West Gun Show in Phoenix. Many of the firearms seized had yet to be unpacked from the back of a cargo van that was used to transport them to the show.


YEP
a simple case of licensing non-compliance.
it's okay to make a profit with the proper credentials...the way it has been all along.

the fascist soup blogger seems to be a cherry picker and perhaps even a sensationalist.



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:40 PM
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jUST TRYING TO BE HELPFUL HERE...

www.azcentral.com...#



by Nathan Gonzalez - Jul. 13, 2010 10:40 AM
The Arizona Republic

Read more: www.azcentral.com...##ixzz0tcXhTBXD


Federal authorities seized more than 1,000 firearms from the unincorporated east Mesa home of a man they accuse of being an unlicensed gun dealer who unlawfully sold firearms at area gun shows.

About two dozen Maricopa County Sheriff's deputies and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents clad in bulletproof vests and assault rifles surrounded the home of Robert B. and Lois Daly before 6 a.m. Monday.


The home is in the 8300 block of East Quill Street, near 84th Street and McDowell Road in a rural part of east Mesa.

ATF Special Agent Thomas Mangan said agents executed a search warrant for more than 1,000 firearms and financial documents showing Robert Daly illegally sold firearms without a federal license. Daly at one point had a valid license, but it expired in 2006, Mangan said.

"Many of the guns (that were seized) were marked with a price and were for sale," Mangan said.

While private two-party gun sales aren't a crime, a six-month investigation found that Daly was replenishing his inventory and sold firearms at gun shows in Nevada and around Arizona, according to authorities.

The most recent instance was Sunday at the Crossroads of the West Gun Show in Phoenix. Many of the firearms seized had yet to be unpacked from the back of a cargo van that was used to transport them to the show.

"These were not the type of guns you would generally see someone purchasing to commit a criminal act," Mangan said, however some of them had been tied to crimes. He did not have specifics.

"Some would qualify as antiques," Mangan said. "He was deriving a profit from the sales."

Daly was in Prescott as ATF agents descended on his home business, Buffalo Brothers Cowboy Store, but returned to the Valley and is cooperating with authorities, Mangan said. The investigation is not believed to be tied to any international gun trafficking.

In addition to a variety of cowboy and Wild West memorabilia, the company website advertises "a large assortment of handguns, rifles, shotguns, and knives for sale" and states that "we have been importing guns from Europe for over 10 years."

Lois Daly, Robert's wife and co-owner of Buffalo Brothers, declined to comment about the investigation. In addition to Daly selling without a federal license, undercover ATF agents were sold weapons using out-of-state identification, which is illegal, Mangan said.

Federal agents will spend the next 30 days cataloging evidence and reviewing financial and sale records before forwarding the case to the U.S. Attorney's Office.

Daly has not been arrested, but the investigation is ongoing and could involve additional associates, Mangan said. He declined to say who else may be involved.

The investigation came as a surprise to neighbor Dale Charnes, co-owner of Arizona Gunfighters, a group that re-enacts Old West gunbattles.

"They are super-good people and super-good neighbors," Charnes said, calling Daly "a legit gun dealer." Cynthia Standish said the Dalys were a "family-oriented household. They were people that would Christmas Carol up and down the street.

"I would be very surprised if something illegal was going on there."



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:42 PM
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DAMN YOU PEOPLE THAT POST AT THE SAME TIME AS ME!



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by SWCCFAN
 


Had a local gun dealer tell me recently that individuals can't sell more than 12 guns (of any type) per year or the person has to have a FFL as per ATF rules.

We were just talking about gun laws in general, (and no I don't engage in the buying and selling of guns, in case anyone is wondering....) and that was the first time I have ever heard of same; maybe something new?

He has been in business long enough to know the rules so I had no reason to doubt what he said.



[edit on 13-7-2010 by manta78]



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:52 PM
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i just left a comment at the blog.



my comment:



why didn’t you include the part of the original article that would have made the story clear instead of leading on about something that is actually not true?

the man didn’t have a license to sell firearms, but he was doing so, using a store-front.

the ATF didn’t act outside of the law.

and i’m no fan of authority. however, i am a fan of truth and clarity.





mnemeth1, is that your blog?

i'm just asking because of the anarchy sign there and for your avi.
i realize that it's a widely used symbol, but i do just have to ask.



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 09:53 PM
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reply to post by jeh2324
 


pinch, poke, jeh2324 and OmegaLogos owe ani a coke!




posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 10:36 PM
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Having read the entire article, I must find the OP's conclusion erroneous.

It isn't an issue of "how dare he make a profit from the sale of guns!" it is an issue of "how dare he make a profit from the sale of guns, without following our arbitrary and ridiculous laws!"

The ATF and the U.S. Attorney's Office completely overreacted. They acted poorly. This could have been solved through a simple visit to the store or even a phone call to tell the man to renew his license and that he would face the consequences if he doesn't.

This waste of time, effort, and money has nothing to do with public safety and more to do with the narrative set up by our government (liberal and conservative alike) to disarm the public as a whole. The fact is, they would rather demonize some idiot to further their agenda than to protect people from violence.

Every now and again they have a bust like this to show how what they are doing is actually helping to take guns off of the streets. What they actually do is take guns out of the hands of people who won't use them to instigate violence in the first place while leaving the gangs and ghetto's to fend for themselves.



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


*ahem*


private two-party gun sales aren’t a crime


Which is exactly how he was conducting his transactions.

The ATF is mad, as Din mentioned, because he wasn't paying homage to the ATF gods.

Some days I dream about being on a jury for such a case. I would actually cream my shorts at the opportunity to tell the ATF to shove it up their ass by acquitting him or hanging the jury.

Since he was not a wholesale distributor selling from manufacturers, he was operating within the law.

Not that the law really matters anyways since it's nothing more than tyranny. I would acquit him even if he was selling wholesale.


[edit on 13-7-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jul, 14 2010 @ 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


*ahem*


private two-party gun sales aren’t a crime


Which is exactly how he was conducting his transactions.


at gun shows?
if you sell at a gun show, you are a "vendor"
that is not a private sale.


While private two-party gun sales aren't a crime, a six-month investigation found that Daly was replenishing his inventory and sold firearms at gun shows in Nevada and around Arizona, according to authorities.

The most recent instance was Sunday at the Crossroads of the West Gun Show in Phoenix. Many of the firearms seized had yet to be unpacked from the back of a cargo van that was used to transport them to the show.


the ATF did over-react, imo, but the point is that the man wasn't obeying the law.


Daly was in Prescott as ATF agents descended on his home business, Buffalo Brothers Cowboy Store, but returned to the Valley and is cooperating with authorities, Mangan said. The investigation is not believed to be tied to any international gun trafficking.

In addition to a variety of cowboy and Wild West memorabilia, the company website advertises "a large assortment of handguns, rifles, shotguns, and knives for sale" and states that "we have been importing guns from Europe for over 10 years."

Lois Daly, Robert's wife and co-owner of Buffalo Brothers, declined to comment about the investigation. In addition to Daly selling without a federal license, undercover ATF agents were sold weapons using out-of-state identification, which is illegal, Mangan said.

Federal agents will spend the next 30 days cataloging evidence and reviewing financial and sale records before forwarding the case to the U.S. Attorney's Office.


he's got a business. he should conduct it on the up-and-up or not at all. i have a business, too, so i know it isn't always easy and not always the best way to make a living. but it is a choice that i made, myself. so i do what i am supposed to according to the laws of the city, state, and even the federal government. if i don't, i'm just screwing myself and have only myself to blame - just like this guy. he knew the law but still he took the chance and his gamble didn't pay off.

and even if the law isn't fair, and i don't see what's wrong with this one - not all laws are the spawn of corruption, it is still the law.

if we can't change the law through the high road, so to speak, then we won't be able to change it at all.
we can't win if we play by their rules - and i don't mean the laws in this case but in the methods and means they use to win.

i absolutely hate the state of affairs in this country right now. but i'm not going to fall down because i'm pissed...why lay down with them when i'm still standing up?

i can't give anyone a hand up if i'm not on my feet.

[edit on 7/14/2010 by queenannie38]



posted on Jul, 14 2010 @ 01:18 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


He wasn't selling them at gun shows, he was BUYING THEM as a private citizen at gun shows.

Then selling the deer hunting rifles and antiques he bought online as a private sale.

He wasn't running a stand at a gun show, and even if he was, you don't need a license to do that.

He also wasn't selling direct manufacturer wholesale firearms or other secured firearms that require an FFL.

Thus, he didn't need a license.

Thus, why HE WAS NOT ARRESTED.

They didn't arrest him because they have nothing on him.

Its a witch hunt.

The whole point of the dog and pony show raid was to intimidate other private citizens into not privately trading and selling guns. You can bet your bottom dollar that if the ATF had something they thought would stick in court they would have arrested him.

They were simply looking for any excuse to shut him down.


[edit on 14-7-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jul, 14 2010 @ 02:42 AM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
He wasn't selling them at gun shows, he was BUYING THEM as a private citizen at gun shows.


The first paragraph in the article states, "Federal authorities seized more than 1,000 firearms from the unincorporated east Mesa home of a man they accuse of being an unlicensed gun dealer who unlawfully sold firearms at area gun shows."


Then selling the deer hunting rifles and antiques he bought online as a private sale.


He apparently did more than just sell them online.


He wasn't running a stand at a gun show, and even if he was, you don't need a license to do that.


Judging by what I've read here, You do need a license to do that.


He also wasn't selling direct manufacturer wholesale firearms or other secured firearms that require an FFL.

Thus, he didn't need a license.


"MAY acquire from and dispose of personal firearms to non-licensed residents of this state. "

You could argue that these thousands of guns he owned were his personal property and he was simply reselling them...which, wouldn't amount to much of an argument because he then seems to be a vendor. He did have a business, although unincorporated, he did not sell as "person A" to "person b", he sold as "store" to "person."


Thus, why HE WAS NOT ARRESTED.

They didn't arrest him because they have nothing on him.

Its a witch hunt.


He just got his guns taken away for running a bogus business. Maybe criminal charge will be filed as the investigation is ongoing.


They were simply looking for any excuse to shut him down.


As with the argument against illegal immigration goes; illegal, is illegal, is illegal. He broke the law, he needs to go.



posted on Jul, 14 2010 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by queenannie38
 


He wasn't selling them at gun shows, he was BUYING THEM as a private citizen at gun shows.



and sold firearms at gun shows in Nevada and around Arizona, according to authorities


sold firearms at gun shows

do you have inside information beyond that which is in the article?



posted on Jul, 14 2010 @ 02:59 AM
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'Pay unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and pay unto the Almighty what belongs to the Kingdom of Heaven'

It is no longer about the sensationalist thread title of profiteering from guns sale. Shall we say knives are equally a profit driven enterprise? Thus the OP should honestly change the title if he seeks a rational discussion.

It is about the right to resale guns. Supposed that I have 3 guns in my home and decides to sell them away. I advertise in the media to come to my house to purchase and someone buys it from me. Had I broken any law?

Similarly, you must ask yourself, had the owner in the OP broken the law as well? After all, what is 3 guns or a thousand guns but merely just a number?

The law is law regardless if it is just one or a few thousand. And more insidious with the usual 'sleight of hand' tactics, what kind of message are TPTB sending? Revocation of the right to re-sell guns and intimidate gun owners? More critically, the right to re-sell anything?



posted on Jul, 14 2010 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 

Explanation: Thanks for clarifying your POV!


Personal Disclosure: I agree totally with DINSTAAR's posted comments!
They earned a St*r!


reply to post by queenannie38
 

Explanation: Thanks! I agree 100% You earned a St*r!


Personal Disclosure:
I must declare that a person is INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY! I haven't seen any proof as yet that would either condem him or free him from his current state of federally imposed duress.



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