Why Capitalism Fails

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
first, i'd like to point out that america isn't truly capitalist. capitalism is by no means perfect, but its the best system we've got. the thing keeping us down is the monetary system, not capitalism. our paper money is based on debt, every dollar you own is a dollar someone owes someone else. with this system, the more wealth you get, the poorer others become. if money was backed by gold, every penny you earned would have its own value.

would a totally free market work? no. people are too corrupt, and the masses are easily duped. but with well thought out restrictions, and every citizen doing their part by educating themselves, it can last for quite some time before a revolution is needed.

An evolution is needed first brother, even if we had another form of currency backed by something of substance it still wouldn't matter you will still see the same problems and same symptoms nothing will change because you have not eliminated the REWARD factor in the equation, people get rewarded for corruption, killing, wars, having more money than others, if you take away the rewards you will start changing the environment which in turn will start changing conscious levels and humanity as a whole.

A true democracy is one where all people of the world have equal purchasing power!!

[edit on 14/7/10 by free_spirit_earth]

Originally posted by camaro68ss


you want to be like the USSR and there socialist ideas, look were they are now?

[edit on 13-7-2010 by camaro68ss]

[edit on 13-7-2010 by camaro68ss]

What you mean having almost cleared their debt to the world bank ahead of schedule !

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by Enf0rc3r
Difference here is that in real life u dont get a liberal professor failing you automatically. In real life, if u work hard, u will make money. Simple concept that has made America the power house it is today. The professor was a complete idiot, ad used a biased model of capitalism based on his political views to hammer home a point that some people aren't good enough in his world to succeed.

if you mean succeed in living at a bare minumum, you're right. american people in the past have lived in this type of society, where the wealthy have lived in grandour, while the regular people worked 10 to 12 hours a day just to put food in their mouths and have a place to sleep. if you do not belief that, then you need to do some reading of this country's history from a hundred years ago.
there are people that work hard now, at minimum wage, that live in squalid conditions...you just don't see it on the main stream media.
tell me how you would live working full time at the minimum wage of $7.65 an hour, that is gross wages before taxes, with no benefits, and no cost of living increases?
and if you think the wealthy that inherited that wealth, work hard...you are either one of them, or are being fooled into believeing that line of gargbage.

WHOA!!! You completely demonstrated your total lack of understanding what Capitalism is!

Those people making minimum wage have a choice to improve their lot in life under true Capitalism. Bill Gates used to live in his car! Need I say more?

I'm so sick and tired of people believing that they are entitled to anything. You are entitled to NOTHING! If you want more, then work harder, faster or smarter.

Originally posted by kozmo
WHOA!!!

You completely demonstrated your total lack of understanding what Capitalism is!

Those people making minimum wage have a choice to improve their lot in life under true Capitalism. Bill Gates used to live in his car! Need I say more?

I'm so sick and tired of people believing that they are entitled to anything. You are entitled to NOTHING! If you want more, then work harder, faster or smarter.

Money, contrary to the attitudes of most of the world's population today, is not a natural resource, nor does it represent resources. In fact, by all standards of logic, money is only functionally relevant in a society when certain natural resources are scarce and must be rationed, and thus a system has emerged where people are given an arbitrary value for their labour, in exchange for servitude, which can thus be used as a medium of exchange for those scarce resources.


Sadly, the culture is now fully indoctrinated into this artificial frame of reference and, like the sun rising, most cannot even consider another possibility for social functionality. In fact, some have even redefined the relevance of money itself, by being conditioned to think that money represents "choice." That money, somehow, has something to do with democracy and the greatest illusion...that money is a tool of liberty. The reality is that the opposite runs true: Money is a tool of social control, not liberty. You are only as free as your purchasing power will allow you to be.

A free market economy operated under a Constitutional Rebublic will always render the most egalitarian distribution of wealth. Hard work will be rewarded and laziness will be punished. As it should be.

The problem with our current capitalism is that socialism has crept into the system. The elite in government make laws and regulations that benifit the elite in business. The politicians promise welfare to certain segments of the public just to get votes. Government grows in size and power and the system becomes more corrupt. Socialism is the problem.

What amazes me is that some folks still believe that in a Socialistic system there will be no wealthy elite. What a farce. In the former USSR the elite lived lavish lives and flew to Paris for shopping sprees. While the masses lived like slaves. The "workers" in a Soviet style system are stuck with no way to advance. They become perminent slaves to the "system".

In a true free market system there would have been no bail outs for the rich banksters. It is welfare to the rich that is destroying us and creating huge debt that will be paid back by the middle class.

Our only hope would be a return to a true free market with a very limited federal government. But we may be too far gone for that to happen.

Originally posted by taskforce4256

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
I have never seen a better example...

[
It really speaks truth about the fallacy of capitalism. On paper it sounds great, but in reality, unless everyone contributes, it will inevitably fail.

Source: Why Capitalism Fails.




[edit on 13-7-2010 by ExPostFacto]

I think your last sentence was the key. If you don't contribute, you don't deserve anything. Capitalism is for those who contribute. Those who are unable to contribute due to physical or mental defect will be cared for. Those who choose not to contribute, either because they "opt out of the system" or because their choices led them to non-contribution (drug dependence, etc.) are not the responsibility of society. Apparently, they have chosen to starve.

I agree with taskforce4256 on this. Capitalism works for those who work hard. In the OP's example, the students gave up after seeing that their work accomplished nothing. I don't see this a hole in the ideal of Capitalism, but the attitude of today's society. Most kids want instant gratification and when they don't see the fruits of their labor pay off immediately, they give up.

History will show that those who immigrated here and achieved much, had often worked hard for many years with nothing to show for it. Bit, they (and others like them) didn't give up. They contributed and they pressed on. And, yes, Capitalism worked for them.

[edit on 14-7-2010 by Freenrgy2]

THE MONETARY SYSTEM IS OBSOLETE. The technology we have this very day could be used to create abundance for all of the earth’s inhabitants instead of destroying ecosystems and confining you to an existence as a lifelong wage slave. The monetary system is based on the creation and perpetuation of scarcity. When you're born into a scarcity driven environment you are going to make choices based upon the protection of your basic needs; you are going to horde and protect yourself because that is what the system requires. With everyone acting this way at once we end up with chaos and warfare. As long as a social system uses money or barter, people and nations will seek to maintain the economic competitive edge, and if they cannot do so by means of commerce they will by military intervention. The monetary system makes us compete for the planets resources. A good college education is no longer a lifetime meal ticket.

MONEY CREATES INSTITUTIONS that are forced for their own survival to perpetuate themselves. Therefore, progress is inhibited by money more than it is accelerated by it. Money serves as an incentive, only to a certain degree. Once you build an establishment and you have lots of people working for you, it doesn't matter how honest or genuine you think you might be. The moment you have that type of establishment and the moment something comes along to challenge your advocation, you are going to have a natural propensity to want to restrict the development of anything that might take away your market share. This is the underlying mechanism that governs the whole of monetary society. The current monetary system is not capable of providing a high standard of living for everyone, nor can it ensure the protection of the environment because the major motive is profit. Greed and competition are not the result of immutable human temperament. They are in fact being continuously created and amplified as a direct result of the monetary system.

Guess you weren't a fan of my thread!

Why Socialism Fails

Good rebuttle! Maybe we are just doomed to fail reguardless of the system

S&F
-E-

[post by ANOK

Then you must consider that there are also legal ramifications for not purchasing certain goods and services, insurance for example. You must buy car insurance or you will lose your privilege to drive your vehicle and may even go to jail. Health insurance will soon follow in that regard. What about taxes? I would love to stop paying taxes, but several different kinds of taxes are taken from my paycheck automatically, without my consent. I can't ask my boss to stop taxing my paychecks, she would laugh in my face. She doesn't have that power.

I do agree partly with what you're saying, but just like the rich have loopholes, we do, too, as far as auto insurance there are several alternatives, own a motorcycle, which is loads cheaper on insurance, or own a scooter, where in most states you do not need to insure it at all, or buy your car outright so that you can have the minimal insurance, and liability, the one that is required is getting cheaper every day. The health insurance, well, as I am poor they'll supply for my kids, But I will refuse based on my religion, I will use my religion also as a reason not to get it once I am working and only provide for my children. As I am pagan, I beleieve only in holistic which we both know they would not cover anyway.
As far as taxes go on income, it's easy really find some dependants, an elderly or handicapped spouse and maybe his kids you can adopt/ or if you're a guy elderly woman, handicapped woman, same thing basically, also you get a tax credit if you adopt and if you don't want to marry there's plenty of children in the foster system you can foster and you'll get to count them as dependants and on top of that you receive money for their care from the state as well, but when you foster be very direct that you want only children that are 100% wards of the state, none that still have pending cases.

[edit on 14-7-2010 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 14-7-2010 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 14-7-2010 by ldyserenity]

In my humble opinion, the problem is not that capitalism fails, it's that capitalism succeeds too well and enables a few individuals to accumulate so much wealth, that they gain monopolistic power over consumers, squeezing even more profits out of them to the detriment of the rest of us.

If capitalism fails as a system, it'll be because the distribution of wealth was allowed to become so skewed towards a small percentage of the population, that the rest felt they had nothing to lose by tearing the system down.

Solution?:
Ban foundations that allow wealth to grow tax free.
Impose a 90% estate tax on estates over a certain size and auction off the assets of these estates, using vouchers that have been distributed to all citizens and which can only be used for these auctions and nothing else.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by ldyserenity

The real problem with normal capitalism is that it nearly works out well - if it was a clear disaster it would be changed. It is by far, the most likely path of the future. The privileged and stratified society, continuing indefinitely in one form or other, probably with some assistance to the poorest as a matter of conscience.

The statement that Capitalism is the "most likely path of the future" basically refutes the assertion that Capitalism has failed.

There's no such thing as a "perfect model" of Capitalism, or of Socialism, or of a Democratic Republic, for that matter. We do not live in a black-and-white world — our diversity of background and perception and thinking makes a black-and-white, yes-or-no, true-or-false, easily-defined existence impossible.

IF/THEN/GOTO only works for the most basic intelligence, on the order of a bacterium. Absolute values and perfection simply don't exist in our much more sophisticated (and some would say retarded) world of Human understanding.

Only in the perfect sense is Capitalism a failure. But, if Capitalism is a failure, then Socialism is a torture device, and a Democratic Republic is a vaudeville routine performed for the distraction and amusement of the masses.

All of which is true, by the way.

— Doc Velocity






[edit on 7/14/2010 by Doc Velocity]

You should have read the whole article, it basically says the same thing about socialism, it's pretty much saying exactly what you were stating. You took the words of that sentence out of context, because of where I ended, but to keep a minimal quote, I had to end it somewhere, that's why I stated one should read the whole article it goes through different examples (Hypothetical) of each society, It doesn't however give any answer as to an alternative, but it does accurately portray both what you are saying as well as the OP.


I should clarify, what I meant is this Current System of Capitalism fails, which is really not true capitalism... I was tired when I posted last evening...but that's what I mean our current system.

[edit on 14-7-2010 by ldyserenity]

The best POSSIBLE solution so far is here folks - A Resource Based Economy

[edit on 14/7/10 by free_spirit_earth]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by jaxnmarko
Basically capitalism is like a cancer with growth coming at the ultimate expense of the host.

Tell the truth.

Humanity is the cancer. Humanity depletes and distresses and exhausts the natural resources. Humanity does not contribute to the health of the ecosystem, particularly with our present morbidly bloated population of entitled beggars and entitled elite, throttling the worker — the real whipping boy of our civilization — as he trudges onward, robotically performing the menial tasks that need performing to sustain the arrogant elite

— Doc Velocity




[edit on 7/14/2010 by Doc Velocity]

I agree and disagree, Humanity is the cancer, but it was not always that way we can live again in balance with nature and restore our Earth, The problem is that last sentence there in this quote I have right from you, however I don't think the poor are covetous, Some are and some aren't, that's like saying, and I am not saying this racially I am just giving a general example "All African- Americans like Watermelon" you can see the flaw in that logic, right?
Usually I don't agree with you, but most of what you have posted here on this thread I do agree, any system is flawed but especially socialism. Socialism is dangerous but so is capitalism to their own degrees. But you should really read the entire link I supplied, It is really a very good explanation of the problems with each individual system.

Originally posted by Enf0rc3r
Difference here is that in real life u dont get a liberal professor failing you automatically. In real life, if u work hard, u will make money. Simple concept that has made America the power house it is today. The professor was a complete idiot, ad used a biased model of capitalism based on his political views to hammer home a point that some people aren't good enough in his world to succeed.

Making money doesn't always equal making a living, thats where the problem stems. Ya sure anyone can make a buck, but not anyone can make enough to cover the cost of living.

When its impossible to make enough to live because you didn't conform to all the standards, people resort to theft and other crimes.

Democracy is a failure when it comes to being equal in material gains. Its not really freedom either, because if you don't conform to the law of the democratic government, you will be destitute or jailed.

People have a funny idea of what works, what doesn't and have a hard time calling a spade a spade mostly due to misplaced pride.
There can be a better system, if people make an honest effort towards that goal. However, for the most part we are sheep being brought to the slaughter.

reply to post by free_spirit_earth


I think the main issue at hand is here is many people have become invested in systems to their own peril One day both ideas will be obsolete.

There is absolutely NOTHING about "capitalism" that assures the wealth will end up in a few hands, or that the system REQUIRES a poverty class.
Who allows our congress to pass laws that benefit the privileged? Who allows our congress to live like kings and queens? Who keeps voting them in?
WE DO! That is not capitalism, that is stupidity. That is laziness. That is apathy.
Who EXPECTS a job just because you went to school? Who EXPECTS to be treated with the finest medical care, but on the cheap? Who EXPECTS to be paid whether you work or not?
They are not called "capitalists", they are apathetic, stupid, lazy people who feel like THEY are the ENTITLED class.
Blaming capitalism is just the latest blame game, where we can blame someone else for our troubles.

Originally posted by free_spirit_earth
The best POSSIBLE solution so far is here folks - A Resource Based Economy

[edit on 14/7/10 by free_spirit_earth]

Yes , but the ressource based economy need some upgrade.

Do you know the "free culture" ? Example Jamendo with 36 000 album , or ubuntu / linux / "free software" with every single software you need for your personnal, and business life ... do you need more

YES : you need more : you need a FREE INDUSTRY

Imagine you take free hardware schemas , you work on it, you send it via a website : to a FREE INDUSTRY ( AUTOMATED PLANTS ) : and you create or reuse invention, stuff, goods ....

Examples :
Linaro

YES WE CAN : YES you need a ressource base economy : where ressource is not only basic ressources : but goods : so you need a FREE INDUSTRY with open source hardware ( and open source software ).

This is the idea: please take it do what you want with it : google will try to do it sooner or later : ideas worth spreading.

THis idea has no price : it is the future

Originally posted by sapien82

Originally posted by camaro68ss


you want to be like the USSR and there socialist ideas, look were they are now?

[edit on 13-7-2010 by camaro68ss]

[edit on 13-7-2010 by camaro68ss]

What you mean having almost cleared their debt to the world bank ahead of schedule !

No. I think he means a broken up and fractured empire that just recently adopted Capitalism to pull itself out of complete financial ruin.

Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by camaro68ss

 

* * * *

But wanting a persistent parasite State just seems nuts.

But that's exactly what we now have, isn't it?

Just to remind everyone - jealousy of wealth does not equal an economic failure.

Bill Gates has more than you - eat a Whaaa-Burger and some French Cries.

Poverty exists EVERYWHERE and there will always be poor people.

By the way - did you know that Bill Gates wasn't always rich? Either was Steve Jobs.

Capitalism rewards those with ability AND determination. It rewards the best of us.

Socialism penalizes the best of us.

Communism penalizes everyone and rewards the meanest dude with the biggest gun.

... ok - you pick.