Proudly, Even Lovingly Wearing Symbols Of Death/Murder

I would like to raise the point, Jusus was alledgedly killed by crucifixion, hence the modern use of a cross/crucifix representing Christianity.

en.wikipedia.org...

Crucifixion is an ancient method of painful execution in which the condemned person is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (of various shapes) and left to hang until dead. The term comes from the Latin crucifixio ("fixed to a cross", from the prefix cruci-, "cross", + verb figere, "fix or bind fast".)
Crucifixion was in use particularly among the Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans from about the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD. In the year 337, Emperor Constantine I abolished it in the Roman Empire, out of veneration for Jesus Christ, the most famous victim of crucifixion. It was also used as a form of execution in Japan for criminals, inflicted also on some Christians.

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en.wikipedia.org...

A crucifix (from Latin cruci fixus meaning "(one) fixed to a cross") is a usually three-dimensional cross with a representation of Jesus' body, referred to in English as the corpus (Latin for "body"), as distinct from a cross with no body. It is a principal symbol for many groups of Christians, and one of the commonest forms of the Crucifixion in the arts. It is especially important in the Roman Catholic Church, but is also used in Orthodox and Eastern Catholic, as well as Anglican, and Lutheran churches, (though less often in other Protestant churches), and it emphasizes Jesus' sacrifice — his death by crucifixion, which Christians believe brought about the redemption of mankind. Large crucifixes high across the central axis of a church, by the late Middle Ages a near-universal feature of Western churches, but now very rare, are known by the Old English term rood. Modern Roman Catholic churches often have a crucifix above the altar on the wall; for the celebration of Mass, the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church requires that, "on or close to the altar there is to be a cross with a figure of Christ crucified".
Strictly speaking, to be a crucifix the cross must be three-dimensional, and a painting of the Crucifixion of Jesus is not a crucifix. However this distinction is not always observed. While the cross must be three-dimensional, the "corpus" need not be, and in the Orthodox Church it is normally either painted on a flat surface or worked in low relief (no more than three-quarters relief).

The crucifixes are even made from plain to basically ornate works of art.

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If Jesus had been killed by modern methods say, lethal injection, electric chair, firing squad, would we have a syringe, electric chair or gun as the symbol of Christianity.

So I guess the real point I trying to make is, why do so many people loving wear what is actually a symbol of execution & yes I know not all branches of Christianity use the cross.



Even in fiction this sort of thing occurs, even if it is a skew on Christianity.

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams
The messiah figure is nailed upside to a tree & the tree is then used a a symbol for god with people wearing tree medallions.

en.wikipedia.org...

Also, despite lingering polytheistic echoes of Germanic and Celtic mythology, the main human religion is a reinvented fantasy version of Christianity mixed with Norse mythology whose primary figure, Usires Aedon, was executed by being nailed upside-down to a tree, reminiscent of the crucifixion of Christ and Odin being tied to the world tree.

brainz.org...

Nordic stories and religion (including a Christ figure that was executed by being nailed upside-down to a tree, leading to the formation of this world's main religion which is a mixture of Christianity and Norse mythology).

Please I would I like to hear more than the tired old, he died for our sins & it is a symbols of the pain he suffered for us.


[edit on 13-7-2010 by acrux]

I have always wonderd why this is.... And you make a very good point with the modern times of killing.
It just does not make sense to have the dead or dying Christ hanging nailed to a cross as the symbol of Christianity. Why not have something of hope and goodness. Like i said it doesnt make any sense unless of course there is a ulteria motive

S&F

Originally posted by acrux

Please I would I like to hear more than the tired old, he died for our sins & it is a symbols of the pain he suffered for us.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by acrux]

Umm, well that's probably all you're going to get since according to scripture, that's, y'know, what the cross is a symbol of...

I was raised roman catholic and went to a roman catholic school for my entire education, this reply is merely what I was taught and not my personal opinion as I no longer have religious beliefs. The symbolism behind the cross is not one of death and murder but rather a reminder that the ultimate price was paid to free you from your inherent sin, and the selflessness of the man who paid the price for this freedom. It is simply a matter of perspective, for the people who hold this belief it will always symbolize hope, forgiveness, and good will to all of humanity, for those that don't it will look like a device for murder and execution.
It is the same for peter's cross, the inverted upside down cross that many people associate with satanism and can be seen depicted on the popes throne. St.Peters cross reflects the sacrifice of the disciple Peter who was crucified shortly after Jesus. Peter asked the Romans to crucify him upside down as he did not want to die in the same fashion as the lord as he felt he was unworthy of going through the pain the lord went through and felt he should go through much more. The Romans granted this request and Peter was crucified.Peter was Jesus's choice to lead the flock in his absence making peter essentially the first pope, giving a perfect reason to have it on the popes throne again its a matter of perspective as you will see in at least a dozen threads on this site dealing with St.Peters cross.
Again this is only what I was taught at one specific school. In my personal opinion if I die for a cause lets say the freedom of humanity by being set on fire and burnt to death feel free to rally people to the cause I fought for by depicting my murderers foul act in all of its bare honesty and of the martyrdom that had committed for that cause. You could even make bumper stickers.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by DrunkNinja]

[edit on 13-7-2010 by DrunkNinja]

reply to post by DrunkNinja

Again this is only what I was taught at one specific school. In my personal opinion if I die for a cause lets say the freedom of humanity by being set on fire and burnt to death feel free to rally people to the cause I fought for by depicting my murderers foul act in all of its bare honesty and of the martyrdom that had committed for that cause. You could even make bumper stickers.

Fair call.

For all we know suicide bombers who in some parts of the world are considered martyrs, could one day b e worshipped as saints & their symbols be a "time-bomb". Who knows stranger things have happened.

Well my mom was always of the opinion that it's the crucifix that still ontains the image of Christ on it, that was wrong. To her, Christ rose from the dead, so "holding" him on the cross was denying his actual triumph.

Me, i'm with Bill Hicks. He asks the same question, and compares it to going up to Jackie O with a rifle bullet pendant .... "Hey Jackie, thinking of your John, ya know?"

Wouldn't go down so well ....

Originally posted by Legion2112

Originally posted by acrux

Please I would I like to hear more than the tired old, he died for our sins & it is a symbols of the pain he suffered for us.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by acrux]

Umm, well that's probably all you're going to get since according to scripture, that's, y'know, what the cross is a symbol of...

Isaiah 45:20 (New International Version - UK)

20Gather together and come; assemble, you fugitives from the nations. Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save.

DEFINETELY NOT according to scripture. The bible CLEARLY states that anything made as a symbol of faith is bad in god's eyes... that includes a depiction of a cross....

now if someone were to show a text from the bible where it staes that we should wear the cross then I'm sold...

Another thing of interest is to research the historical accurasy of the doctrine that jesus died on a cross... when reviewing the original hebrew and greek texts, one would have to come to the conclusion that it is by no means a certain fact that Jesus died on a cross... instead it would be much more likely that he died on a straight pole. Hence the need to break the legs of the criminals hanging besides Jesus. it sped up the dying process because when one would stand on their legs, while being nailed to a pole, one would relief the pressure caused by one's chestmuscles constricting ones airways, when standing on their legs. This concept is not aplicable with a cross...

This is easily proven when you grab something to hang from and you'd place your hands close to eachother... note the constricting tendency's you'll experience from your chestmuscles. this was why breaking the legs was necessary. this is simply not necessary when nailed to a cross...

[edit on 13/7/2010 by faceoff85]

[edit on 13/7/2010 by faceoff85]

I just had a thought while reading the post about bill hicks and his comments regarding Jackie O and the rifle pendent. I think that if the anti-nwo community adopted the rifle pendant as a symbol to rally people to their cause and it was working that neither Kennedy or Jackie Onasis would mind considering Jackie is a prisoner of the secret service and people waking up might be able to free her it might also be seen by her as a sign that people haven't forgotten about her late husband and the hero that he truly is and the sacrifice he made. sometimes a symbol is exactly whats required to stay in the public eye, and a shiny golden rifle with a lot of controversy around it could be just the ticket. Again this is perspective but if it was working and was making a difference in the anti-nwo movement I think Bill Hicks would approve considering he fought for this cause in his medium and could even be considered one of its first members. I personally would love to wear a pin commemorating President Kennedy and would relish in the ability it would have to stir up discussion and emotion on the issues that Kennedy gave his life for. It seemed to work for Jesus, maybe the ancients had better marketing techniques maybe this was one of them

[edit on 13-7-2010 by DrunkNinja]

i was always told that it is because he died for our sins so it is a reminder of the suffering he endured on our behalf.

Personally i don't see that as the reason though.

I'm LDS, and we have never worn or displayed crosses, for the reason stated in the Jackie O analogy and because we believe Christ to be alive.

the cross has nothing to do with death. in fact, it most closely resembles the egyptian ankh. these symbols go back to the dawn of man. the cross is to resemble 2 sticks crossed with when rub create fire, stolen from the gods by prometheus and delivered unto man to give him knowledge.

Originally posted by Frakkerface
i was always told that it is because he died for our sins so it is a reminder of the suffering he endured on our behalf.

Personally i don't see that as the reason though.

I think a better description would be to say that the reason we use the cross as a "symbol of Jesus sacrifice" is because Satan knew it would appeal to humans (we have a tendency to look for tangible things) and at the same time it would stray us from the true path of worship since the bible, in numerous places, tells us that creating a likening of anyhting in the heavens or on earth with the intention of worshipping or serving it, is blasphemous in god's eyes...

Isn't it also kinda weird that in all depictions of Jesus hanging from a cross he looks kinda weak? pretty much sticks and bones. even though he was the 3rd PERFECT human to ever walk this earth. The 1st perfect human being (Adam) was king over all animals and who knows what other abilities he had. Jesus must have been quite the athlete with some seious capabilities. still churches depict him as a weak and fragile man.

[edit on 13/7/2010 by faceoff85]

Originally posted by DrunkNinja
a reminder that the ultimate price was paid to free you from your inherent sin

There is no inherent sin.

Every child is born pure, TABULA RASA, as a white paper with nothing on it.

Whatever will be later written on that paper is what makes you accountable for. If you fill it with evil, you will find your recompense for that before God, and if good is on the white paper, you will be recompensed for that too.

No man shall pay for the sins of another. That would be unjust, and God is not unjust. He is the Bearer of the ultimate Justice.

Originally posted by skajkingdom

Originally posted by DrunkNinja
a reminder that the ultimate price was paid to free you from your inherent sin

There is no inherent sin.

Every child is born pure, TABULA RASA, as a white paper with nothing on it.

Whatever will be later written on that paper is what makes you accountable for. If you fill it with evil, you will find your recompense for that before God, and if good is on the white paper, you will be recompensed for that too.

No man shall pay for the sins of another. That would be unjust, and God is not unjust. He is the Bearer of the ultimate Justice.

Since the Qu'ran actually acknowledges the work of Moses you'd have to say that you were wrong with your above statement...

Genesis 8:21 (New International Version - UK)

21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

BTW anybody out there who actually tried hanging from their arms? Just curious

[edit on 13/7/2010 by faceoff85]

reply to post by faceoff85


There is one fine small detail - Adam sinned, but:

... then Adam received words from his Lord, and his Lord relented towards him. He is the receiver of repentance, the merciful.
(Qur'an, 2:37)

Originally posted by skajkingdom
reply to post by faceoff85

 

There is one fine small detail - Adam sinned, but:

... then Adam received words from his Lord, and his Lord relented towards him. He is the receiver of repentance, the merciful.
(Qur'an, 2:37)

I am not entirely sure what you are trying to point out here...

What I wanted to point out is that since god took from Adam and Eve their Flawless human body and mind, ALL humans born after that inherited this "imperfect body and mind" wich inherently has the tendency to sin.

reply to post by skajkingdom


Adam sinned than god forgave him has nothing do to with inherent sin and this does not qualify as proof of there not being inherent sin all it shows is that Adam committed a sin and the lord forgives where does inheritance enter the picture ? and where does this flawless mind and body enter the picture there is nothing referring to this in your posted statement.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by DrunkNinja]

Originally posted by DrunkNinja
reply to post by skajkingdom

 

Adam sinned than god forgave him has nothing do to with inherent sin and this does not qualify as proof of there not being inherent sin all it shows is that Adam committed a sin and the lord forgives where does inheritance enter the picture ? and where does this flawless mind and body enter the picture there is nothing referring to this in your posted statement.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by DrunkNinja]

#


You said this in a post above:

a reminder that the ultimate price was paid to free you from your inherent sin

By that you mean that Jesus had to die on the cross to PAY for us.
I pointed out that since God FORGAVE the original sin, then no human is born in sin.
Thus, THERE IS NO NEED for someone to pay for us, nor would that be just, and GOD IS JUST.

It is completely another thing the quote from Torah that people tend to do evil - this is because they are tempted by the devil, and often they listen to him.

BUT, a child born today IS PURE - he has NO SINS WHATSOEVER, thus, AGAIN, there was NO NEED for anyone to die "for him".

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Now speaking about youthful innocence s a blank page is one thing, but who here has not deliberately done something wrong in their life?

It's in us all. All civilisations have strived to minimise this "bad" in us, with laws and customs. Now i assume most people are good, if a little misguided, but surely at the end only we (and God) know what we actually intended? And surely it's the intention that matters them most?

I have 3 kids, good kids by all accounts. But jees i have to watch them, because otherwise they'll try get one over me. That's HUMAN NATURE. Which, according to MOST religions, is bad. The only bad i do see is ego, when people become self centred. That's when other people get hurt, usually fairly quickly.

Not to say the devil is the ego, but it certainly has a ready helper when the ego is stroked, like with Eve.

the cross you discuss is not the only one. this cross is also worn everywhere.
especially with the harley- biker crowd. its on chopper sunglasses, west coast chopper t-shirts, tattoos etc.
i personally think it's mostly a symbol of being cool, more than anything, and also realize most who wear it don't understand it's history.
other symbols come to mind, and i apologize for intruding if this thread was only intended for discussion about the other cross.



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[edit on 13-7-2010 by rubbertramp]