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Jesus details came from scripture and revelation

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posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 05:00 AM
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Gday all,

How did Paul and the early Christian writers learn about Jesus ?

Firstly, some general comments -
2 Cor 1:22 NEB
"It is all God's doing, God has set his seal on us by sending the Spirit".

1 Cor. 2:13 NEB
"We speak of these gifts of God in words found for us not by our human wisdom but by the spirit"

1 Cor. 14:36-37
"Did the word of God originate with you? Are you the only people to whom it came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize that that I write has the Lord's authority"

2 Cor. 5:5
"God has shaped us for life immortal, and as a guarantee of this he has sent the Spirit"

1 Peter 1:12 :
"Preachers brought you the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven."

The source of their gospel, their teaching, is the Spirit - is internal personal revelation.

More specifially, how did Paul learn about Jesus -

Gal. 1:16
"God chose to reveal his Son in me, in order that I might preach him among the gentiles"

Jesus was revealed to Paul, IN Paul, by revelation.

Rom. 16:25-6
Paul's Gospel "about Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept in silence for long ages but now revealed, and made known through prophetic writings".

Until NOW it was secret, but Paul now has knowledge about Jesus - derived from his revelation about what the scriptures mean.

Eph 3:5
"The mystery about Christ which in former generations was not made known to the human race, is now revealed to dedicated apostles and prophets through the Spirit."

Knowledge about Jesus Christ is only NOW known by revelation - not a recent historical Jesus.

Gal. 1:11-12
"For I neither received (paralambanoo) [my Gospel about Jesus Christ] from man, nor was I taught it, but [I recieved it] through a revelation of Jesus Christ"

He received his gospel about Jesus from personal revelation - specifically saying that he did NOT learn it, and got it from NO MAN.
Paul uses 'paralambano' to refer to receiving revelation.

1 Cor. 15:3-4
"For I delivered to you ... what I also received (paralambano), that Christ died for our sins, as learned from the scriptures, and that he was buried; and that he was raised on the third day, as learned from the scriptures"
(Translating "kata tas graphas" to "as learned from the scriptures".)

Paul has received this knowledge about Jesus dieing and rising again from HIS personal REVELATION about what the scriptures really mean, probably referring to Isaiah 53, Hosea 6:2, Ps. 22:16, Zech. 12:10 and Ps. 2.

1 Cor. 11:23-26
"For I received (paralambano) from the Lord that which I passed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was delivered up, took bread, and when he had given thanks, broke it and said: 'This is my body..."

Paul's received this knowledge about Jesus' Last Supper by personal revelation.


In summary
Paul's preaching of Jesus all comes from his own personal revelation, his own new understanding of what the scriptures really mean.

Nothing to do with a historical Jesus.



Kap




posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 05:06 AM
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Gday all,

This pattern is not just in Paul - other early Christians get their knowledge of Jesus FROM the scriptures :

Hebrews
1:2 "In this final age God has spoken to us through his Son" in the present.
But all quotes of the Son are from scripture, not a single Gospel saying - e.g. Ps. 2:12 "I will proclaim thy name to my brothers", not Mark 3:35 as example of being brothers.

Quotes of OT scripture are put in Jesus' mouth with "he says...", in the present tense - e.g. 10:5-7 Christ speaks about himself by quoting Ps. 40:5-8. 5:7 derived from Ps. 116:1 and Ps. 22:24.

Scripture is consistently the source for Jesus' words and actions to this writer, not any historical Jesus tradition.

Revelation.
Opens with the "revelation of Jesus Christ" - God reveals it to Jesus, who passes it to an angel who tells John. Filled with revelation about Jesus. 1:7 is derived from Zech. 12:10. Closes with quote from Habakkuk in the mouth of Jesus.
This whole book is about revelation and what is supposedly says about Jesus.


The Suffering and Vindication of the Innocent Righteous One
Mark's passion of Jesus is derived from the OT - Gen. 39-41, Est. 3, Tobit 1:18-22, Susanna, Dan. 3 and 6, Macc. 3, 2 Macc. 7, Wis. Sol. 2-5.
The passion story of Jesus comes from episodes in the OT.


1 Clement
16:15-16 describing Jesus' suffering - quoting Ps. 22 and Isaiah 53, no Gospel stories. Ch. 22 - Ps. 34 is quoted as a direct summons from Jesus.
Scripture is a source for Jesus' actions for this writer too, not any historical Jesus traditions.

Polycarp's epistle
8:1 talking of the events around Jesus - he quotes from Isaiah 53.
2:3a speaks of "the Lord in his teaching", then quotes from 1 Clement 13.
No clear knowledge of Jesus stories, except from scriptures.

Barnabas
Talks about Jesus' passion 5:2, 5:12, 13 ; but his sources are scripture - Isaiah 50 and 53 and Psalms 22 and 119.
No clear knowledge of Jesus stories, except from scriptures.


Tertullian,
On the Flesh of Christ, Ch. 9
"As the case stood, however, it was actually the ordinary condition of His terrene flesh which made all things else about Him wonderful, as when they said, "Whence hath this man this wisdom and these mighty works?" Thus spake even they who despised His outward form. His body did not reach even to human beauty, to say nothing of heavenly glory. Had the prophets given us no information whatever concerning His ignoble appearance, His very sufferings and the very contumely He endured bespeak it all. "

That is -
even if the prophets [i.e. scriptures] had not told us he was physically ugly, we could still tell that was so from his sufferings.

Tertullian's source for Jesus appearance is the scriptures (the prophets.)

Again in Against Marcion 3, 17 :
Let us compare with Scripture the rest of His dispensation. Whatever that poor despised body may be, because it was an object of touch and sight, it shall be my Christ, be He inglorious, be He ignoble, be He dishonoured; for such was it announced that He should be, both in bodily condition and aspect.
Isaiah comes to our help again:
"We have announced (His way) before Him," says he; "He is like a servant, like a root in a dry ground; He hath no form nor comeliness; we saw Him, and He had neither form nor beauty; but His form was despised, marred above all men." Similarly the Father addressed the Son just before: "Inasmuch as many will be astonished at Thee, so also will Thy beauty be without glory from men,"

Isaiah is directly the source of details about Jesus for this writer.


Origen vs Celsus.
They argue about the characteristics of Jesus - as derived from Isaiah and Psalm 45 (contra Celsum VI, 75)

In summary -
many early Christians got their knowledge of Jesus FROM scripture, or FROM revelation - without any hint of a historical Jesus tradition.


Kap


[edit on 13-7-2010 by Kapyong]



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 05:55 AM
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There is no mystery about Paul's formation, I think.

First, Saul was an observant, literate Jew, so he would know Hebrew scriptures. Second, he had spent some time as a persecutor of Jewish followers of Jesus, and so would have a cop's knowledge of the perps' worldview.

These two are synergisitic and ampliative. Knowing that his victims believed that Jesus fulfilled prophecies about the Messaiah, and knowing what those prophecies were, it would be easy for Saul to form a general impression of Jesus' career in broad brushstrokes. He would probably also have taken special notice of the gaps (the predicted things that will, according to the story, be fulfilled by Jesus in his second appearance, but it is agreed that they were not accomplished).

We also have a third factor, the time Saul-Paul spent in Damascus with the associates of Ananaias of Damascus. Annanaias is a fascinating character, IMO. He was a disciple, someone who met the living Jesus (Luke wrote that he said he had; happy now?). By endorsing the nearly content-free desert event of Saul, using his own dream-vision, Ananaias promotes himself to the rank of apostle while commissioning Saul as the special apostle to work the Gentile audience.

There follows a course of instruction, which need only be brief given the first two factors. There was also a healing (Saul was temporarily blinded by the desert event, then he got better while in the care of the Damascus Jesus movement). No surprise that Paul would have some dreams of his own about all of that. One of his dreams affirms Ananaias'... so, apostleship will thereafter expand beyond the Twelve.

Beyond that, I think the human mind does spontaneously work to harmonize superficially discordant material. I think psychological projection onto the "blank canvas" of Jesus' biography is a strong possibility in Paul's case, too. But making collective unconscious contents conscious is a typical part of religious innovation.

I suspect, then, that you and I probably agree more than we disagree. Perhaps I am less astonished than you are that the prophecy is antecedent to its claimed fulfillment. Surely, the other way around would be even less interesting.

As you yourself might point out, Paul's mental state is irrelevant to the historical claims about Jesus and his teaching. Paul isn't a witness, and doesn't claim to be a witness. He is an interpreter of what he had heard, and presents himself as just that. Any modern claim that Paul's interpretation is priviliged would be a matter of faith, and so reside beyond the scope of historical inquiry.



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 05:58 AM
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You include biblical AND non-biblical links, but ignore the only 4 books of the Bible that directly deal with the life of Jesus? The rest, including Paul, are just hearsay and 3rd party testimony and opinon..




posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 06:18 AM
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If we're quoting Paul, why not continue the one you started:

1 Cor 15:6


Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.
For I am the least 4 of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been ineffective. Indeed, I have toiled harder than all of them; not I, however, but the grace of God (that is) with me.
Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.


(My emphasis)

Paul's teaching was conditioned by the apostles in Jerusalem, not purely from his own "personal" revelation. Both the passage above and Acts makes it quite clear that Paul regarded the apostles (with their direct knowledge of Jesus prior to the ascension) as more authoritative than his own knowledge. The debates about theology at the first council recorded in Acts make clear that Paul was not developing his theology in a vacuum.


[edit on 13-7-2010 by d60944]

[edit on 13-7-2010 by d60944]



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 06:44 AM
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not to mention the one that really gets you(astral? hallicination? you say) and you failed to mention is that DIRECT REVELATION to Paul was a voice from out of thin air/heaven that said "I am Jesus" -THE SAME Spirit that raised Him!

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead-Rom8.11

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus-1Tim2.5

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.-1John4


[edit on by No King but Jesus]



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by harryhaller
You include biblical AND non-biblical links, but ignore the only 4 books of the Bible that directly deal with the life of Jesus? The rest, including Paul, are just hearsay and 3rd party testimony and opinon..


Pardon?

Did you miss the part where I noted that the passion of Jesus comes from the OT stories?

In short -
The Jesus stories come largely FROM the OT legends.

The Gospels are late productions, written by persons who never met Jesus.


Kap



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 04:40 PM
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Gday,


Originally posted by d60944
If we're quoting Paul, why not continue the one you started:

1 Cor 15:6


Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.
Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;
that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.
For I am the least 4 of the apostles, not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been ineffective. Indeed, I have toiled harder than all of them; not I, however, but the grace of God (that is) with me.
Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.


(My emphasis)

Paul's teaching was conditioned by the apostles in Jerusalem,


Rubbish.
Paul says the exact opposite.
Paul says he received that knowledge by revelation (paralambanoo.)

He specifically says he did NOT learn it.
He specifically says he did NOT get it from any man.


Paul says he is just as much an apostle as the pillars.
Paul lists his vision along with visions to the others.

Pauls says clearly many times that his knowledge comes from revelation and scripture.


Kap


[edit on 13-7-2010 by Kapyong]



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by No King but Jesus
not to mention the one that really gets you(astral? hallicination? you say) and you failed to mention is that DIRECT REVELATION to Paul was a voice from out of thin air/heaven that said "I am Jesus" -THE SAME Spirit that raised Him!



Best bets are that this was a Jinn, that talked to Paul - Jinns (demons) like to make you stray from the path. What better than use Paul to diametrically change the teachings of Jesus, and the disciples, thus creating his own religion.
Mix that with a bit of mitraic and greko-roman paganism - TADAAAA - here you got your modern "christianity" or better call it with its true name: PAULIANISM.



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 05:56 PM
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Gday,


Originally posted by skajkingdom
Best bets are that this was a Jinn, that talked to Paul - Jinns (demons) like to make you stray from the path. What better than use Paul to diametrically change the teachings of Jesus, and the disciples, thus creating his own religion.


Could be.
But then, that sounds a lot like what spoke to Mohamed too :-)
And Joseph Smith, and many others. Even I have encountered them.

But whatever these Djinns or demons (or angels too) actually are, we don't count them as historical.

Paul started it all.
And he seems to have had a bee in his bonnet, a voice in his head, just like a certain poster around here.

THAT's how Christianity started.
Someone with voices in his head.


Kap



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by Kapyong
And he seems to have had a bee in his bonnet, a voice in his head, just like a certain poster around here.



Not that I like you much, but I lolled here.

BTW, in another thread he claimed he was in a Café when he first heard that voice. Then he claimed he was at home or so ...

Seems like the voices are making him a bit ... well ... confused.



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by skajkingdom
 


do you know what blasphemy of the Spirit is? judging by your sig I suppose you look up to murderers? who did the beheadings then? and before you slander/lie(who is the father of liars?) again try to get the facts straight so as to approach with out appearing so foolish-the Gideon NT was left on the bar like a bar at home you know countertop-there was not voice's there was One and that one time only just as it is written(John5.25) as in the instance Paul first believed that said "I am Jesus" that was audibly and invisibly

But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.-2Pet2.12



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by Kapyong
 


I suggest you do-

“Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.-Ex23



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by skajkingdom Best bets are that this was a Jinn, that talked to Paul - Jinns (demons) like to make you stray from the path. What better than use Paul to diametrically change the teachings of Jesus, and the disciples, thus creating his own religion.
Mix that with a bit of mitraic and greko-roman paganism - TADAAAA - here you got your modern "christianity" or better call it with its true name: PAULIANISM.


Well, you don't really have to "bet" on something like this.

All you have to do is follow a few statements of Jesus concerning matters such as this:

1) "By their fruits you will know them." And the thistles of Pauline Christianity were several hundreds of years of Roman idolatry and slaughter, and Christian anti-Semitism resulting in the extermination of millions of Jews during the Holocaust; none of which would have been possible without the demonic nonsense of "vicarious atonement" and "the Jews" as the "Christ-killers" or the 'God'-killers.

2) "The road to destruction is wide....and narrow is the path to life." Translation: The very success of aPauline Christian theology--there are now hundreds of millions of adherents (not exactly a "narrow path")--mediates against any claim that it is, in any way whatsoever, an accurate representation of the Teaching of Jesus.

Add to that that Paul was likely responsible for the murder of James, the brother of Jesus--as suggested by Eisenman in a book by that name; and that Paul was a Pharisee who taught the doctrine of a physical raising of a dead body from the grave, whereas Isaiah, Daniel, Jesus and Mohammed taught the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'.

Michael Cecil



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come-Eph1.20

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.-Matt28.18

The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.-Luke22.38

polished to flash like lightning! " 'Shall we rejoice in the scepter of my son Judah ? The sword despises every such stick.-Eze21.10

His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.-Dan10.6

See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.-Zech3.9

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law-Rom2.14

His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace-Eph2.15

And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.-Ex25



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by Michael Cecil
 


Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name.-Heb13.15

no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.-1Cor12.3



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 05:33 AM
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reply to post by No King but Jesus
 


judging by your sig I suppose you look up to murderers?

Pot meet kettle... oh the hypocrisy.

Both the OT and your NT are riddled with murder and other acts of violence. Apparently with your god's full support and acknowledgment.
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Funny you aren't using any of those quotes. :shk:


[edit on 15/7/10 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Jul, 15 2010 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by ConspiracyNut23
 


are you saying Jesus murdered someone? in your attempts to sound like you know something could you esplain that one for us? or is it -well you look to the bible? thought you said Jesus did'nt exist or you think He was'nt raised? well what is it? did I say the voice said "I am Moses"-nope, did I say the voice said "I am bible" nope, how bout "I am ???(keep making up as you have done here-you know lied)!", the voice said "I am Jesus" clear on that now?

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.-Heb4.12

rightly dividing the word of truth.-2Tim2.15

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."-John3.18


[edit on by No King but Jesus]



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 04:51 AM
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reply to post by No King but Jesus
 



are you saying Jesus murdered someone?

No. What I said was: "...your NT are[is] riddled with murder and other acts of violence."

If you check the link I posted you'll see for yourself that the god of the OT and the NT is probably the greatest mass murderer of all time. For you to say that muslims "look up to murderers" is nothing short of hypocritical. All theists of the Yahweh persuation look up to a mass murderer, be it Jews, Christians or Muslims.


...thought you said Jesus did'nt exist or you think He was'nt raised?

I have no idea whether or not Jesus ever existed. Nor do I care. All I can claim with 100% certainty is that he's no more a god than either Hercules or Horus.


keep making up as you have done here-you know lied)!",

I'm not making anything up nor am I lying. What is giving you that idea?




[edit on 16/7/10 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Jul, 16 2010 @ 05:52 AM
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reply to post by ConspiracyNut23
 


simple-Jesus of the NT did not murder anyone-then you say the God of the NT is a murderer? A LIE! mojammed certainly has blood on his hands for sure-so who are you following?-being the comment for the sig was to skaj

[edit on by No King but Jesus]




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